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Hi david
We must beleive in a heaven, but maybe two Gods and two heavens reign receiving their children
By hope I receive what I can understand, by faith I know My God will make my path straight
But if He goes to the place prepared for us, he shall come and receive us to himself
Paradise, for the heavens of old are where all unrighteousness could enter, even Satan
Paradise is the new heaven no unrighteousness may enter, where the throne moved and came down as a city, and is where God being a spirit and the lamb are waiting at the feast;
We enter the kingdom in heart first, for that is where the kingdom is within us while we have temples, and are sent out side of it to preach salvation on earth for entry
The earth is our reward, and God once more shakes the earth from Jerusalem, not being the city spiritually named Sodom where OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.
But really the whole earth, it is the inheritance of the righteous, the wicked are removed from the earth one by one,
The creation is numbered and the there is a end; a day on earth that the last soul shall be born unto grace and judgment days, then comes the end of the world, which is those who are of this world, but not the end of Paradise in Eden the new heavens. All things shall be established on earth
I would consider the heaven believed towards, for the thoughts towards the old heavens have been adopted, and that heaven is for the convent of promised life holders, the old covenant, the New is for the receives of eternal life.
Also the false prophet causes great things to come down from heaven in revelation, with power he deceives. By giving attention to,
Maybe that he is still being the God of the heaven thereby he receives to himself his own children, But christ seed shall not return to himStill many rooms?? old heavens parable of lazreth, death reigned only from Adam to Moses, holding heavens called Abrahams bosom seperate children, until David covnent reedemned, waiting then with God to revenge their blood in Christ, God even heard talking with them in revlations, from their cambers, and gives them white robs, and has said wait a bit longer still their is more numbered of the creation that should return to the dust before the new begins
I am always willing to hear a higher truth and exchange my foundations. according to the words of God written for us to receive and delived with such power That i may not refuse
Charity
Hi David
I used to think that everyone except those who went to Hell went straight to Heaven, and that all my generations of relatives would be there to meet me, this is what I grew up believing and never questioned it until a couple of years ago when my husband was doing a Biblestudy with The Living Church of God, via correspondance. What he was learning was intense for him, it was challenging most of what he was taught as a child and grew up believing. He learned and then told me,( short version) that when we die we stay asleep our souls with us, then when Jesus comes back all of us dead in the grave will be risen, That no man goes to Heaven with the exception of those chosen, like Abraham, Jacob and Moses. After praying about this issue, I believe God has shown me, that this is the case, and until He shows me otherwise, I'm in that grouping too.
But am interested in what you think.Hi everyone:
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I john saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away”. (Rev. 21:1-4) In Matthew 25:19-46 the Lord rewards those who have used their talents in service to them “enter thou into the joy of the Lord”.
Because of the above and because God allowed me to go through a personal experience where I was shown by expiencing three levels of joy in my heart, I believe that heaven is a state of bliss. Also, Strong's exhaustive concordance states that heaven implies happiness.
“To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.” (Isaiah 61:3)
“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with EXCEEDING JOY, to the only wise God, our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.” (Jude 1:24)
God Bless
Hi,
An interesting discussion.Do Souls Go to Heaven?
The celebrated Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible: “No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death” (Vol. 1, p. 802).
Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149): “Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings…. The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed, just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment…. Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day.”
(Why then do churches constantly say that disembodied souls have gone to heaven or hell?)
Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger, on II Cor. 5:8: “It is little less than a crime for anyone to pick out certain words and frame them into a sentence, not only disregarding the scope and context, but ignoring the other words in the verse, and quote the words ‘absent from the body, present with the Lord’ with the view of dispensing with the hope of the Resurrection (which is the subject of the whole passage) as though it were unnecessary; and as though ‘present with the Lord’ is obtainable without it.”
Law and Grace, by Professor A. F. Knight (p. 79): “In the Old Testament man is never considered to be a soul dwelling in a body, a soul that will one day be set free from the oppression of the body, at the death of that body, like a bird released from a cage. The Hebrews were not dualists in their understanding of God’s world.”
Families at the Crossroads, by Rodney Clapp (pp. 95, 97): “Following Greek and medieval Christian thought, we often sharply separate the soul and body, and emphasize that the individual soul survives death. What’s more we tend to believe the disembodied soul has escaped to heaven, to a more pleasant and fully alive existence. We mistakenly envision the Christian hope as an individual affair, a matter of separate souls taking flight to heaven. But none of this was the case for the ancient Israelites.”
Martin Luther: “I think that there is not a place in Scripture of more force for the dead who have fallen asleep, than Ecc. 9:5 (“the dead know nothing at all”), understanding nothing of our state and condition — against the invocation of saints and the fiction of Purgatory.”
“Heaven in the Bible is nowhere the destination of the Dying.” (J.A.T. Robinson, In the End God, p. 104
John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church, Sermon on the Parable of Lazarus: “It is, indeed, very generally supposed that the souls of good men, as soon as they are discharged from the body, go directly to heaven; but this opinion has not the least foundation in the oracles of God. On the contrary our Lord says to Mary, after the resurrection, ‘Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father.’”
While the Jehovah’s Witnesses and others are labeled cultists because they say that the soul does not go to heaven when a person dies, the records of early church history are testimony to the fact that “orthodoxy” is the real culprit.
Did the early church teach the separation of a conscious soul from its body at the moment of death and its immediate departure to heaven? (I am not here discussing the condition of the soul as church fathers understood it, but the question of its immediate location at death.)
Here are the words of Irenaeus of the mid-second century (Against Heresies, Bk. 5): “Some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the prearranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption. They thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens. [Note that it is the “heretics” who teach that the soul goes immediately to heaven at death. Today, according to present orthodoxy, it is the heretics who teach that souls do not go immediately to heaven or hell. This makes Irenaeus as well as John Wesley a heretic— see quotation above!] Those persons, therefore, who reject a resurrection affecting the whole man, and do their best to remove it from the Christian scheme, know nothing as to the plan of resurrection. For they do not choose to understand that, if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in Whom they profess to believe, did not rise again on the third day, but immediately upon his expiring departed on high, leaving His body in the earth. But the facts are that for three days, the Lord dwelt in the place where the dead were, as Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale’s belly (Matt. 12:40) . . . David says, when prophesying of Him: ‘Thou hast delivered my soul from the nethermost hell (grave).’ And on rising the third day, He said to Mary, ‘Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father’ (John 20:17). . . . How then must not these men be put to confusion, who allege . . . that their inner man [soul], leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? [Irenaeus thus reckons today’s teaching as shameful!] For as the Lord ‘went away in the midst of the shadow of death’ (Ps. 86: 23), where the souls of the dead were, and afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up into heaven, it is obvious that the souls of His disciples also . . . shall go away into the invisible place [Hades]. . . and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event. Then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, bodily, just as the Lord rose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. As our Master did not at once take flight to heaven, but awaited the time of His resurrection . . . , so we ought also to await the time of our resurrection.
Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain orthodox persons are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the earthly KINGDOM which is the beginning of incorruption; by means of this KINGDOM those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature.”
[Irenaeus thus condemns the whole “orthodox” tradition about what happens at death, the tradition, that is, which eventually swamped the biblical teaching, from the third century onwards.]
The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80): “They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . .” . For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by n
ature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?”[Justin thus implies that teaching an immediate survival of the soul in heaven or hell is Platonism not Christianity]
Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious, disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.
Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:
Trypho : “Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs…?”
Justin: “I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong1 to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men’s teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The Day of the Lord,’ is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place.”
Justin’s statement on the Intermediate State (in full) (ca 150 AD):
“For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the Truth of the resurrection and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven: do not imagine that they are Christians; just as one, if he would rightly consider it would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of the Genistae, Meristae, Galilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews, but are only called Jews, worshipping God with the lips, as God declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80, Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, Eerdmans, p. 239)
The Latin church father Tertullian (often known as the father of Western Christianity) is another who would disagree strongly with modern “orthodoxy” about what happens to the soul at death. He protested against the idea that the soul leaves the body at death and goes to heaven:
“Plato…dispatches at once to heaven such souls as he pleases…. To the question, whither the soul is withdrawn [at death] we now give the answer…. The Stoics place only their own souls, that is, the souls of the wise, in the mansions above. Plato, it is true, does not allow this destination to all the souls, indiscriminately, of even all the philosophers, but only those who have cultivated their philosophy out of love to boys…[homosexuals].. In this system, then, the souls of the wise are carried up on high into the ether…. All other souls they thrust down to Hades.
By ourselves the lower regions of Hades are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth, that is, in the secret inner recess which is hidden in the earth, and enclosed by the earth, and superimposed on the abysmal depths which lie still lower down. Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, “He died according to the Scriptures” (I Cor. 15:3) and “according to the same Scriptures was buried.” With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself. [Nothing is said in the Bible about Jesus altering the condition of the Patriarchs while he was in Hades] This being the case you must suppose Hades to be a subterranean region and keep at arm’s length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the lower regions. These persons who are “servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master,” would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in Abraham’s bosom. But it was for this purpose, say they, that Christ descended into hell, that we might not ourselves have to descend thither. Well, then [they say], what difference is there between heathens and Christians, if the same prison awaits them all when dead? [But I say], How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father’s right hand, when as yet the archangel’s trumpet has not been heard by the command of God. When as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? To no one is heaven opened. When the world, indeed, shall pass away, then the kingdom of heaven shall be opened….” (Treatise on the Soul, Ch. 55):
Another “Church Father,” Hippolytus (ca 170-236), certainly did not think that souls were in heaven:
“But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained…. The righteous will obtain the incorruptible and unfading Kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous…. Thus far, then, on the subject of Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time God has determined; and then He will accomplish a resurrection of all, not by transferring souls into other bodies, but by raising the bodies themselves” (Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe, 1, 2).
Modern scholars realize that the view of death which has prevailed (and is now promoted in church constantly) is not biblical. Far from it, it is, amazingly, actual
ly “pagan” and “Gnostic.” Moreover as the above quotations from the early apologists for Christianity show, the idea of going to heaven or hellfire immediately at death was a novel, heretical doctrine not taught by the church for some three hundred years after Christ. In a standard text of Christian Dogmatics we read:“…the hellenization process by which Christianity adopted many Greek [pagan] thought patterns led in a different direction as the eschatological hope came to be expressed in Hellenistic categories. Irenaeus said: ‘It is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away in the invisible place allotted to them by God. and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event. Then receiving their bodies and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come into the presence of God.’ Irenaeus’ statement contains the concept of an abode or purgatory in which the soul of the dead remains until the universal resurrection. We should not denounce this as a deviation from biblical teaching, since the point of the assertion is antignostic. Irenaeus wanted to reject the Gnostic idea that at the end of this earthly life the soul immediately ascends to its heavenly abode. As the early fathers fought the pagan idea that a part of the human person is simply immortal, it was important for them to assert that there is no rectilinear ascent to God. Once we die, life is over” (CHRISTIAN DOGMATICS, BRAATEN/JENSON, VOL. 2, p. 503, section written by Hans Schwartz, Professor of Protestant Theology, University of Regensburg, Federal Republic of Germany)
There is a further impressive protest against the popular idea that the dead survive as conscious “souls” in heaven. One might expect that such protest would initiate a wide-scale reform amongst the clergy. Alan Richardson writes in A Theological Word Book of the Bible (pp. 111, 112, emphasis added):
“The Bible writers, holding fast to the conviction that the created order owes its existence to the wisdom and love of God and is therefore essentially good, could not conceive of life after death as a disembodied existence [as millions of sincere believers are now taught in church to think of it!] (“we shall not be found naked” — II Cor. 5:3), but as a renewal under conditions of the intimate unity of body and soul which was human life as they knew it. Hence death was thought of as the death of the whole man, and such phrases as ‘freedom from death,’ imperishability or immortality could only properly be used to describe what is meant by the phrase eternal or living God ‘who only has immortality’ (I Tim. 6:16). Man does not possess within himself the quality of deathlessness, but must, if he is to overcome the destructive power of death, receive it as the gift of God who ‘raised Christ from the dead,’ and put death aside like a covering garment (I Cor. 15:53, 54). It is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that this possibility for man ((2 Tim. 1:10) has been brought to life and the hope confirmed that the corruption (Rom. 11:7) which is a universal feature of human life shall be effectively overcome.”
The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):
“The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not ‘of the body’ but ‘of the dead.’ This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man…. Thus [in traditional orthodoxy] the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus’ Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great.”
That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament, the early Church Fathers and modern informed scholars reject.
Can belief in pagan ideas, promoted in the name of Jesus, result in a knowledge of Truth which leads to salvation? Is not this obvious paganism of Christianity a cause for alarm and a reason for returning to the Truth of the Bible?
——————————————————————————–
1 A number of commentators believe that the text has been corrupted here and that Justin wrote “who do not belong….” The alteration was made to make Justin less condemning of amillennialism. Return to text.
——————————————————————————–Indeed that's what I've been taught. But it is at the last trump that the dead rise. Is it just the fleshly body that rises?
Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.This seems to disagree with Ecc. which says that the dead know nothing. Some would say that was before the sacrifice of Christ and since Christ we are no longer separated from God.
Paul or was it Peter that said king David was still in his tomb and that Jesus was not. But king David was not the messiah and was still under the Old Covenant. And then what was in the tomb but the sinfull flesh of David. Jesus set the captives free!
Soooooooo, Someone tell me! There are scriptures for and against. Since it is the JWs that (as far as I know) brought up that we have NO soul or ghost like spirit that goes to heaven.
What do you think Nick?
I know what David thinks maybe he could explain the JWs teaching on this again. I do have an open mind and try not to rely on what I've been taught in the past. But again I see scriptures for and against so what are we to do?Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This scripture seems to say that the soul and body are separate the soul being in the body but not part of it. Ummmmm
Either way the next thing I will remember will be seeing the face of Jesus
I know I'll put it the back burner!!
Hi kenrch,
Man has a soul.
Till Christ men awaited resurrection in death and Hades.
Some souls are under the altar but does that mean they are IN heaven?Quote Since it is the JWs that (as far as I know) brought up that we have NO soul or ghost like spirit that goes to heaven. We have both “soul” (life) and a spirit (life force).
But yes, we have no ghost inside of us that continues on conscious after death.Quote While the Jehovah’s Witnesses and others are labeled cultists because they say that the soul does not go to heaven when a person dies, the records of early church history are testimony to the fact that “orthodoxy” is the real culprit. –Nick
I choose to take that as some sort of compliment.Hi david,
Jesus taught us about men after death.
Lk 16
“19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
Ken,
I believe when it says that “the dead know nothing” it is referring to the dead no longer have any consciousness of this world, they know nothing of the happenings of the corporeal world. There are too many other scripture indicating consciousness after death; today you will be in paradise, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the souls under alter, the parable of Lazarus, etc. to ignore or explain away, especially when there is a plausible interpretation for the seemingly conflicting scripture.Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 08 2007,03:26) Ken,
I believe when it says that “the dead know nothing” it is referring to the dead no longer have any consciousness of this world, they know nothing of the happenings of the corporeal world. There are too many other scripture indicating consciousness after death; today you will be in paradise, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the souls under alter, the parable of Lazarus, etc. to ignore or explain away, especially when there is a plausible interpretation for the seemingly conflicting scripture.Wm
SeekingtrutI don't believe that there are any scriptures that show a consciousness after death. The dead know nothing.
None of the scriptures that you mentioned indicate consciousness after death.
First, 2Cr 5:8 has been missquoted so many times by so many people that almost no one even knows what it really says any more.2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Obviously Paul was merely saying that while we are here in the body we can't be with the Lord and we would rather be absent from the body so that we could be with the Lord,. It doesn't say immediately, or when we will be with the Lord.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
We know that Jesus did not ascend to his Father on that day ,then the thief could not have been with Him in paradise on that day. After three days in the tomb He told Mary not to touch Him because He still hadn't yet ascended to the Father.
Punctuation was not used in the original texts so just imagine that we moved the comma one word to the right and read Luk 23:43 again.
Jesus is saying, verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in heaven. (at some point in time)The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was exactly that. A parable. There was nothing literal in that parable.
The parables of Jesus are certainly true, but they are not literally true. Example: one cannot possibly put a “beam” (a large piece of lumber) in or out of one’s eye, Mat. 7:3-5. The moral of this parable is certainly a great truth. The symbols used to teach that truth (namely a large piece of lumber in one’s eye) is, of course, not literally or possibly true. The beam represent a huge character flaw, not foreign matter in one’s eye. It’s a figure of speech.Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true. It was given to John in a vision as signage,
signafied as symbols.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.I still believe that ” the dead know nothing”.
This is actually a great thing when you think about it.
When you die the last thing that you remember is being alive.
You then know nothing until the resurrection, at which point you again know being alive. So regardless of how long it is until the resurrection, all you really know is life.
Just like scriptures say. It is like sleeping and then awakening.Tim
Hi Tim,
That is certainly a popular view.
Are we allowed to say the same about any of the parables of Jesus if we cannot understand them?
I think only those born of the Spirit can discern between human soul and spirit and body.Heb 4
“12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”You lost me Nick. I am not sure which of my four points are considered a popular view.
These views are actually unpopular in my church.
1. Everyone quotes 2Cr 5:8 as to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, which is wrong.
2. Almost everyone else considers the parables, especially Lazaarus and the rich man, to be literal, which is wrong.
3. Everyone believes that the thief went to heaven immediately with Jesus after he died, which is wrong.
4. Almost everyone believes that most of Revelation is literal. I do not.If your question is are we are allowed to say that any of the parables of Jesus are not literal if we do not understand them.
Absolutely. Whether we understand them or not they are still simple stories that are not literal.A parable is a brief allegory that is used to teach a moral lesson.
An allegory is a figurative mode of conveying a meaning other than literal.
“A short and simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a much deeper and profound moral or spiritual truth,” WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY
So a parable is a story that is not literal that is used to teach a greater moral lessonLike I said, I was lost as to your question, so maybe I still didn't answer you.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Welcome,Quote 2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: I agree, I was wrong (I should never quote scripture from memory).
Quote Punctuation was not used in the original texts so just imagine that we moved the comma one word to the right and read Luk 23:43 again.
Jesus is saying, verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in heaven. (at some point in time)
I went through 11 translations at Biblegateway.com not a single one has it that way and everyone of them said paradise, not heavenQuote We know that Jesus did not ascend to his Father on that day ,then the thief could not have been with Him in paradise on that day. After three days in the tomb He told Mary not to touch Him because He still hadn't yet ascended to the Father.
Once again your assuming that paradise equals heaven.Quote The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was exactly that. A parable. There was nothing literal in that parable.
The parables of Jesus are certainly true, but they are not literally true. Example: one cannot possibly put a “beam” (a large piece of lumber) in or out of one’s eye, Mat. 7:3-5. The moral of this parable is certainly a great truth. The symbols used to teach that truth (namely a large piece of lumber in one’s eye) is, of course, not literally or possibly true. The beam represent a huge character flaw, not foreign matter in one’s eye. It’s a figure of speech.
I believe the beam represents the ridiculousness (such as having a beam in your eye) of judging “another man's servant” remove the judgment then you can help that brother with his problem.Quote The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was exactly that. A parable. There was nothing literal in that parable.
The parables of Jesus are certainly true, but they are not literally true.I agree it is permissible to tell a parable with fictional characters but I don't see how you could justify using a lie to relay truth.
Quote Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true. It was given to John in a vision as signage,
signified as symbols.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.I believe that symbols, metaphors, and parables are seldom true as far as characters or construction, but it becomes real difficult to pick out the truth if the premise is also not true.
Going back to Lazarus why do you suppose we were given a name? I believe this “parable” to be based on a real story with real places and that Abraham's bosom is paradise. And that when Jesus set the prisoners free, the souls of those staged there waiting on their redeemer were released and are now in heaven awaiting the resurrection to be reunited with their now glorified body. My opinion.
What other scriptures are there that there is no consciousness after death. I've provided a plausible defense, as have you, we each have taken our position because we believe it to be true but the most sincerely held belief can still be wrong. I'm open to change but only if I can see it supported by scripture.
Wm
Hi Nick,
I gave the actual scripture to show why number 1 was wrong.I supplied Websters” definition, as well as common present day understanding of what a parable is to explain why I do not believe that parables are literal.
I do understand that our modern day definitions of words could be different as time goes on though.I thought that I gave scriptural proof that the thief did not go to heaven with Jesus on the day
they were hanging on the cross.
How many days was Jesus in the tomb?
When he was raised did he not tell Mary not to touch him because he had not
yet ascended to his Father in heaven?
So we know that he did not immediately go to heaven.In number four I did not say that those that believe that Rev. is literal are wrong.
I just said that I did not believe it.I do not try to change the minds of any person in regards to their their beliefs.
I may tell them why I believe they are wrong, by that of course, I mean they believe differently than do I. I will not argue my belief in the hopes of changing their beliefs. God will let each of us understand his word when it is our time.Thank you Nick. Some people complain that you seem to have to respond to every post.
I for one appreciate that. It brings about a continuing dialogue on a subject. I enjoy your response to most posts, even if I think that you may sometimes be “wrong”.:DTim
Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.Is their hatred and envy in heaven? Are they in heaven under the sun?
What happens to man happens to animals all turn to dust. But are animals resurrected?
Aren't these scriptures dealing with flesh only?
Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.What does under the altar mean? Doesn't it mean sacrifice. Their souls were slain.
According to Jesus only one can destroy your soul:
Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes but no one has received their reward, not even the souls under the alter.
…they should REST yet for a little time, UNTIL their fellow-servants [us] also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
If taken literaily these “slain” souls are not in heaven. They are waiting the resurrection of their fellow brothers. Are they in paradise? How long, O Master? Doesn't sound like paradise.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
(Luk_16:22, Luk_16:23) refers to the custom of reclining on couches at table, which was prevalent among the Jews, an arrangement which brought the head of one person almost into the bosom of the one who sat or reclined above him. To “be in Abraham's bosom” thus meant to enjoy happiness and rest.
Are the souls under the alter (Rev. 6) resting in Abraham's bosom? OR are the dead resting with Abraham waiting the resurrection that happens at the last trump?
Christ went and preached to the unconsious in hades?
The Rich man and Lazarus were conscious.
God is the God of the Living. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Abraham is alive in “Abraham's bosom”.
Our bibles (which is not the apostle's bible) does not contain many of the books that teach of the living souls in hades.
Unfortunately, we stopped using the bible of Jesus and the apostles and the Catholic church adopted the Masoretic text in about 600 AD later the protestants followed this tradition. Which caused us to toss out a bunch of books we call apocrypha. The masoretic text was finalized until about 100 AD in which the jews sure weren't going to include books or highlight passages that lead to the conclusion that Jesus truly was the messiah.
No matter how many times the apostles quote the apocrypha and the Septuagint modern christians won't get the hint. Why? Because they have to have the comfort of knowing that their perfect “letter” from God contains everything they need to know.
Hi Kenrch,
Indeed Ecclesiastes does speak of man from a physical perspective.
Revelation does not say their souls were slain.
It speaks of the souls of those who had been slain.Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 08 2007,23:41) You lost me Nick. I am not sure which of my four points are considered a popular view.
These views are actually unpopular in my church.
1. Everyone quotes 2Cr 5:8 as to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, which is wrong.
2. Almost everyone else considers the parables, especially Lazaarus and the rich man, to be literal, which is wrong.
3. Everyone believes that the thief went to heaven immediately with Jesus after he died, which is wrong.
4. Almost everyone believes that most of Revelation is literal. I do not.If your question is are we are allowed to say that any of the parables of Jesus are not literal if we do not understand them.
Absolutely. Whether we understand them or not they are still simple stories that are not literal.A parable is a brief allegory that is used to teach a moral lesson.
An allegory is a figurative mode of conveying a meaning other than literal.
“A short and simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a much deeper and profound moral or spiritual truth,” WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY
So a parable is a story that is not literal that is used to teach a greater moral lessonLike I said, I was lost as to your question, so maybe I still didn't answer you.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Your definition of being wrong then is to disagree with you?Is your defintion of being right to agree with you and understand the parables that can be proven from our experience?
Paul, the tentmaker, spoke of his body as a tent. He also referred to the outer man[body] and the inner man[soul]. Salvation is of the soul. The inner man is renewed day by day, replaced by Christ.
The body is resurrected but condemned and the imperishable is put over the perishable as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
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