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Hi David
It's now been over 6 weeks since my posts on page 6, which you still have yet to respond to – I'm about to give up checking this forum…
God bless
SamI'm sorry sammo. I have a file 43 pages long on this subject, that isn't organized at all, of which I gave you the first three pages.
There's the Abrahamic covenant, which I'd like to look into in much greater detail. There's the nation of Israel and spiritual Israel. There's the throne of david, and everything you wrote. I was really hoping to organize these thoughts myself before we have an actual discussion. As I said a while ago, this will take a few months.
This is mostly because I am interested in all the topics on here and post on all these subjects. I read a lot, research all the subjects. And I'm really wanting to do so less, as this eats up a lot of my time. But I definitely want to have this discussion. It's just not on my priority right now. If this topic is all you are interested in on here, I would really suggest checking it in 3 months.Back to the subject the end of Revelation has man on the renewed earth. There are no recorded sightings of him in heaven that I know of so surely earth is his eternal destiny?
Hi David,
I refer to those insecure folk who come with closed minds and a fortress mentality to dip their toes but not swim in the river of the Spirit. Does that include you or not? I have yet to read any of your recent posts.Quote Back to the subject the end of Revelation has man on the renewed earth.
Sorry for your confusion Nick. What I meant was: To what SCRIPTURE do you specifically refer?Hi david,
Rev 21
There is a new heaven and a new earth.
The new Jerusalem comes down OUT OF HEAVEN from God[v2and 10] so it is not in heaven.
v24
“The nations will walk by it's light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.”
So men live on earth still.Nick, I know the majority of men will live on earth.
But as for this “Jerusalem above,” this “heavenly Jerusalem” or “new Jersualem” (as opposed to the old earthly Jersualem) I believe these reside in heaven.
That the New Jerusalem is indeed a heavenly city is further supported by the vision of her that John beheld. Only a symbolic city could have the dimensions and splendor of New Jerusalem. Its base was foursquare, about 555 km (345 mi) on each side, or about 2,220 km (1,379 mi) completely around, that is, 12,000 furlongs. Being a cube, the city was also as high as it was long and wide. No man-made city could ever reach that far into “outer space.” Round about was a wall 144 cubits (64 m; 210 ft) high. The wall, itself constructed of jasper, in turn rested on 12 foundation stones, precious stones of great beauty—jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, hyacinth, and amethyst. On these 12 foundation stones were engraved the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. The city proper within these beautiful walls was no less glorious, for it was described as “pure gold like clear glass,” having a broad way of “pure gold, as transparent glass.”—Re 21:12-21.
Does Revelation 21:2, 3 support your view?
It says: “I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.’”
Does the fact that God will “reside” with mankind and “be with them” mean that he will become a fleshly Being? That cannot be, because Jehovah told Moses: “No man may see me and yet live.” [Ex. 33:20] Consistently, then, the members of the New Jerusalem will not return to earth as physical beings.
In what sense, then, could God “be with” mankind and how would the New Jerusalem ‘COME DOWN OUT OF HEAVNE’? No doubt an indication is found in Genesis 21:1, which says that God “visited” Sarah, blessing her with a son in her old age. Exodus 4:31 tells us that God “visited” Israel by sending Moses as a deliverer. Luke 7:16 says that by means of Jesus’ ministry God “visited” his people. [All from KJ and RS] Other translations use the expression God “turned his attention” to his people [NW] or ‘showed concern’ for them [NE]. So Revelation 21:2, 3 must mean that God will ‘visit,’ or be with, mankind by means of the heavenly New Jerusalem, through which blessings will come to obedient humans.David.
Hi david,
In what way is dwelling with men in Revelation different from what He did with the Israelites?Lv 26.11
” I will make My dwelling among you.”
Ps 76.2
” ..His dwelling place also is in Zion”Num 35.34
” You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell;for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel”
God did then dwell on earth, and will do so again. But He will be in heaven.The first quote is from another thread.
Quote Hi david,
Just because our eternal citizenship with God is reserved in the heavens does not say that is where we will live and enjoy that life in the new Jerusalem. That is simply where it is currently reserved.
The new Jerusalem is on the new earth is it not?Quote Num 35.34
” You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell;for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel”
God did then dwell on earth, and will do so again. But He will be in heaven.“God did then dwell on earth, and will do so again. But He will be in heaven.” ? ? ?
He will dwell on earth, but be in heaven, you say.
1 KINGS 8:27,29
“But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!. . . .’My name will prove to be there,’ to listen to the prayer with which your servant prays toward this place.”While the temple may have been called his house, it was just a shadow of heavenly things, a copy of reality, a typical representation.
These man-made temples, like the sacred tent of meeting that the prophet Moses set up, were merely typical, illustrative. (Exodus 40:1-33)
REVELATION 21:2-3
“I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.”
So, God will reside [literally: “tent with”] them. God himself will be with them, we are told.
And, we are told that New Jerusalem comes from heaven prepared as a bride.Will God literally be on earth? Will New Jerusalem similarly literally be on earth?
I'm curious to know if you think God will literally be on earth?
And if not, I'm curious to know why you think New Jerusalem will literally be on earth?Hi david,
The same Jesus who said to Philip in Jn 14
“Do you not believe I am in the Father and the Father is in me?…..”
continued on to say
“the Father abiding in me does His works..and greater works than these he will do because I go to the Father”
He also told his disciples how to pray
“Our Father who art in heaven..”So was God in heaven or abiding in Jesus?
Both.
God has never left heaven but by His Spirit he livesin Jesus now and forever.
God has dwelled on earth before as He will in the New Jerusalem.
Does not scripture say in Num 54.34
“You shall not defiel the land in which you live in the muidst of which I dwell; for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel”
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) Interesting. It still strikes me when I hear that everyone doesn't believe the good people go to heaven, as most believe. God's original plan for mankind started with Adam and Eve. They were put in a beautiful paradise garden. They were to have the animals under their subjection. And they could have had everlasting life, had they proven that they wanted to obey God. But they chose wrong, were expelled from Eden and so the paradise never grew to cover the earth, but faded away, or at the very least was washed away. Several issues were raised which had to be answered. God could have just destroyed the rebells, but what would that have proved? All of spirit creation had seen what happened. A rebellion had begun. Was Satan right in saying they could choose for themselves? Did man need God to rule them? And, are their any faithful humans who truly want to worship God out of a clean heart? Time is showing us the answers. And God is letting these issues be settled for all time, so that distress will not rise up a second time.
Of course, none of this thwarted God's purpose for the earth or man on it. Could Satan or Adam and Eve change God's purpose for the earth? No. Several scriptures point to the time when the meek will inherit the earth and the wicked will be removed. (Mat 5:5; prov 2:21,22, ps 37:9-11)
But while the Bible speaks of a “new earth,” it also speak of “new heavens.” (Is 65:17; 66:22; 2 pet 3:13; Rev 21:1)M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
The heavens often represent rulership. (Dan 4:26)God has chosen to take a select few from mankind, those who have exprerienced the trials and tempations and sufferings of living on earth and to use them along with Jesus to judge and rule. Jehovah is always fair. And how loving it is for us to be judged by ones who have experienced what humans must endure.
The kingdom is described as a heavenly one. It is ruled from heaven.
Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.)The majority of mankind, those judged worthy of life will enjoy life on a paradise earth, as God intended for those who love him. But this special arrangement of the kingdom, with human kings who have been “bought from the earth” (rev 14:3) is only for a limited number, and for a specific purpose. We are told that they are to rule as kings, to act a priests, to judge.
What is True, As for that scripture in Rev that says they will reside as kings “on the earth,” it should be rendered “over the earth.”
CC reads “reign over the earth.” Kx states “reign as kings over the earth.” But NAB and Dy read “reign on the earth.”
Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. THERE RS, KJ, Dy, ETC., ALL RENDER IT “over.”)The following refer to the annointed, Jesus spiritual brothers, heirs with him of the kingdom:
PHILIPPIANS 3:20
“As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens.”1 PETER 1:3,4
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.”
(Doesn't this indicate that some will be partakers of the heavenly calling?)HEBREWS 12:23
The worldwide body of anointed Christians is “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.”JOHN 14:2, 3:
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”
(Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus.)EPHESIANS 1:10
“for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,”ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
(Where is the Father's throne? These ones that are given thrones will judge and rule as kings. It is a heavenly throne.)Anyway, these are just some thoughts. I'm wondering what you will make of them. I really should organize them better.
david.
Hi david,
None of these verses say men will live in heaven. Yes our citizenship is kept for us in heaven where names are written in the book of life but that is a tangential issue. We live on earth and earth is our inheritance with God and the Lamb.ACTS 2:34
“Actually David did not ascend to the heavens,”I was thinking about this verse the other day. Why would the Bible say this about David if no man will ever go to heaven, if it's completely ridiculous to believe anyone would ever go to heaven and this is obvious, why say that “actually, David did not ascend to the heavens.”
Nick, I don't believe you will be going to heaven. If that's what you're thinking, don't worry. Nor am I going to heaven.
Quote (david @ April 18 2006,05:24) ACTS 2:34
“Actually David did not ascend to the heavens,”I was thinking about this verse the other day. Why would the Bible say this about David if no man will ever go to heaven, if it's completely ridiculous to believe anyone would ever go to heaven and this is obvious, why say that “actually, David did not ascend to the heavens.”
Nick, I don't believe you will be going to heaven. If that's what you're thinking, don't worry. Nor am I going to heaven.
Hi david,
The verse in Acts of course refers back to Acts 2.25f where David is quoted and clarifies that it was Christ being written about and not David.Scripture in Jn 3.13 says also that “no man has ascended into heaven” so David is not alone here. It shows the uniqueness of the Son of God who was not a man when in heaven with God.
It also asks the question as to where Elijah and Enoch were taken.
Define “heaven.”
In the Bible, the term sometimes applies to the spiritual dwelling place of God and his angelic sons. (Matthew 6:9; 18:10)
“Heavens” may also denote the physical universe. (Deuteronomy 4:19)
And the Bible uses this term to refer to earth’s immediate atmosphere, where birds fly and winds blow.—Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26.
I assume you are referring to the first meaning, the spiritual realm?
Evidently, he was transferred through earth’s atmosphere and placed on a different part of the globe.
Elijah was still on earth years later, for he wrote a letter to King Jehoram of Judah. (2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15)
That Elijah did not ascend to the spiritual abode of Jehovah God was later confirmed by Jesus Christ, who declared: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man,” that is, Jesus himself. (John 3:13)
This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.—2Ch 21:12-15
The way to heavenly life was first opened up to imperfect humans after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.—John 14:2, 3; Hebrews 9:24; 10:19, 20.Quote We live on earth and earth is our inheritance with God and the Lamb.
Nick, quick question:
Do you believe those who live on earth will have spirit bodies? And do you believe Adam and Eve had they not disobeyed, had they chosen to listen to God, would they eventually have been given spirit bodies?
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