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I'm sorry. I keep ignoring this subject Sammo. I wish I could organize my thoughts better and put them all down and be done. Then we could discuss.
Quote That's not to say that every single individual Israelite is going to be converted Quote “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2)
I have commented on this before. As you say, not every single Israelite will be converted, or become part of spiritual Israel, if you will. Some would, some wouldn't. So God hasn't cast away his former people–Israelites can still be a part of spiritual Israel. Because notice what Paul says next in explaining this: “FOR I am also an Israelite.” In other words, Paul who was from fleshly Israel belonged to the Israel of God, spiritual Israel, and so God obviously hasn't completely cast off all Israel with no hope for them, “FOR” Paul explains, he is also an Israelite.Quote Just because Israel didn't keep it's side of the covenant, do you think that God would be unfaithful too?
Certainly Not. Jehovah would be faithful to his end of the agreement IF the natural Israelites were faithful to him.TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT:
EXODUS 19:5-6
“And now IF you will STRICTLY OBEY my voice and will indeed KEEP MY COVENANT, then you will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ ”
So it was “IF YOU WILL KEEP MY COVENANT,” then….HOW DID THAT GO?
They “DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT.”
HEBREWS 8:6-9
“But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly BETTER COVENANT, which has been legally established upon better promises. For IF THAT FIRST COVENANT, no place would have been sought for a second; for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW COVENANT; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.””HEBREWS 8:13
“In his saying “a new [covenant]” HE HAS MADE THE FORMER ONE OBSOLETE. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.”Jesus plainly told the Jewish religious leaders:
MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”1 PETER 2:9-10
“But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. For YOU WERE ONCE NOT A PEOPLE, BUT ARE NOW GOD'S PEOPLE; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.”Quote That God will never be through with Israel, no matter how much they sin, is clearly shown by the following verses: “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” (Malachi 3:6)
That's right. He is a God of truth and Justice and will not change. Jehovah could have annihilated his rebellious people, but being unchangeable in his promises, he will be faithful to the promises he made.
“He has remembered his covenant even to time indefinite, the word that he commanded, to a thousand generations.” (Psalm 105:8)
And the word that he commanded?
'IF you strictly obey me,' and “IF YOU WILL KEEP MY COVENANT,” then you will be my special property, a kingdom of priests.
The Bible tells us they: “DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT.”Quote “For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” (Jeremiah 30:11) LEVITICUS 26:44
“And yet for all this, while they continue in the land of their enemies, I shall certainly not reject them nor abhor them so as to exterminate them, to violate my covenant with them; for I am Jehovah their God.”
JEHOVAH WAS CAREFUL NOT TO VIOLATE HIS COVENANT despite their actions.NEHEMIAH 9:31
“And in your abundant mercy you did not make an extermination of them or leave them; for you are a God gracious and merciful.”
IT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS ABUNDANT MERCY AND GRACE.MANY MANY TIMES, HE OVERLOOKED THEIR ERROR.
PSALM 78:38
“But he was merciful; he would cover the error and not bring ruin. And many times he made his anger turn back, And he would not rouse up all his rage.”LAMENTATIONS 3:22
“It is the acts of loving-kindness of Jehovah that we have not come to our finish, because his mercies will certainly not come to an end.”EZEKIEL 20:17
““‘“And my eye began to feel sorry for them [to keep me] from bringing them to ruin, and I did not make an extermination of them in the wilderness.”
REALLY, THEY DIDN'T DESERVE THE MERCY THEY WERE GRANTED, BUT JEHOVAH'S LOVING KINDNESS WAS UPON THEM. YET, YOU ARE RIGHT. JEHOVAH HAD TO HOLD UP HIS END OF THE AGREEMENT, AND ONLY LET THEM BE HIS SPECIAL PROPERTY “IF” they keep their end of the agreement.IT'S TRUE THAT YOU CAN SHOW SEVERAL SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF JEHOVAH FORGIVING THE ISRAELITES. HE DID THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WANTING THEM TO REPENT.
AMOS 9:8
““‘Look! The eyes of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah are upon the sinful kingdom, and he will certainly annihilate it from upon the surface of the ground. Nevertheless, I shall not completely annihilate the house of Jacob,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”When we look at Jesus words, which I have already quoted, it seems that the kingdom was taken from them and given to another nation, spiritual Israel.
Quote “Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:37)
“all” the seed of Israel, will not be cast off, “for,” as Paul said, “I am also an Israelite.” Individual Israelites could still make up the Israel of God, but the nation as a whole was rejected.Quote Please take the time to read these verses carefully in context – you'll see that these passages all clearly speak of Israel after the flesh, and that God will never be unfaithful to them: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:30).
I completely expect and know that Jehovah will fulfill his end of the agreement–an agreement which the fleshly Israelites broke–they “did not continue in my covenant.”Quote God wants people to accept Jesus as their saviour and to repent of their sins, regardless of where they're from. But so far as natural Israel is concerned, it's been prophesied that they're going to convert en masse.
Yes, God wants people to follow him. The nation of fleshly Israel were given a remarkable gift, one which they failed to appreciate. Individual Jews are not rejected, but the nation of fleshly Israel is.Quote For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in
I'd have to research this, but if memory serves me, that word translated “until” can have the meaning of them being blind right up until that time, not meaning that they will change but meaning that they will remail in their blindness right until the end. Other scriptures sometimes use that word in that way. I believe I have commented on this when we originally began this discussion.Quote Finally for now, this verse speaks in language at least as strong as any of the (many) passages above: “But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” (Isaiah 45:17)
Jehovah promises eternal salvation for Israel, but this is conditional. Israel must remain “in union with Jehovah.” When Israel breaks that union by rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, the nation will lose its prospect of “salvation for times indefinite.” However, some in Israel will exercise faith in Jesus, and these will become the nucleus of the Israel of God, which will take the place of fleshly Israel. (Matthew 21:43; Galatians 3:28, 29; 1 Peter 2:9) Spiritual Israel will never be humiliated. It will be taken into “an everlasting covenant.”—Hebrews 13:20.Quote How did the Father in the parable of the prodigal son respond to his wayward child when he repented? Had he ever cast his son away? ““Hear another illustration: There was a man, a householder, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. When the season of the fruits came around, he dispatched his slaves to the cultivators to get his fruits. However, the cultivators took his slaves, and one they beat up, another they killed, another they stoned. Again he dispatched other slaves, more than the first, but they did the same to these. Lastly he dispatched his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ On seeing the son the cultivators said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?” They said to him: “Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due.” Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”
(MATTHEW 21:33-43)How does Jehovah respond when you are repeatedly unrepentant and are a “sinful kingdom” and do not “strictly obey his voice” or keep his “covenant” and even reject his very son?
Jesus provided the answer in the illustration above.david.
Hi David
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) Quote Just because Israel didn't keep it's side of the covenant, do you think that God would be unfaithful too?
Certainly Not. Jehovah would be faithful to his end of the agreement IF the natural Israelites were faithful to him.TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT:
EXODUS 19:5-6
“And now IF you will STRICTLY OBEY my voice and will indeed KEEP MY COVENANT, then you will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ ”
So it was “IF YOU WILL KEEP MY COVENANT,” then….
Absolutely – but Exodus 19 is talking about the Law of Moses, not the covenant made with Abraham. I agree that the Law of Moses has been made null and void – a la the Hebrews passages you quoted – but the Abraham covenant is alive and well, and always will be. For instance, the passage I quoted from Leviticus 26 makes this plain:40 ¶ If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.Note from verse 42 that the covenant in question is the one made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not the law of Moses (the old covenant).
Verse 44 makes it clear that “for all that” – no matter how much Israel sinned – that God would not cast them away, because of his covenant with the patriarchs. The promises to Abraham are still good.
Verses 41-42 make it clear that the door is always open for Israel; God will save them if they repent.
I think it's important not to get the Law of Moses confused with the covenant made with Abraham here.
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) They “DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT.”
HEBREWS 8:6-9
“But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly BETTER COVENANT, which has been legally established upon better promises. For IF THAT FIRST COVENANT, no place would have been sought for a second; for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW COVENANT; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.””
Well, exactly – who was the prophecy in Jeremiah 31 primarily addressed to? It's not rocket science.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) HEBREWS 8:13
“In his saying “a new [covenant]” HE HAS MADE THE FORMER ONE OBSOLETE. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.”
Sure, but the Law of Moses passing away is completely different to the covenant with Abraham passing away. Paul makes this distinction clear in Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.In other words – the covenant with Abraham pre-dated the Law of Moses (the old covenant) by 400 years; therefore the Law cannot disannul the promises made to Abraham. So when Moses and others say that God will never destroy Israel because of the covenant that He made with Abraham, these statements still hold. It doesn't make any difference that the Old Covenant has been disannulled, because, as Paul points out, the promises to Abraham pre-dated the Law by some 400 years.
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) Quote That God will never be through with Israel, no matter how much they sin, is clearly shown by the following verses: “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” (Malachi 3:6)
That's right. He is a God of truth and Justice and will not change. Jehovah could have annihilated his rebellious people, but being unchangeable in his promises, he will be faithful to the promises he made.
“He has remembered his covenant even to time indefinite, the word that he commanded, to a thousand generations.” (Psalm 105:8)
And the word that he commanded?
'IF you strictly obey me,' and “IF YOU WILL KEEP MY COVENANT,” then you will be my special property, a kingdom of priests.
The Bible tells us they: “DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT.”
Those passages are talking about the Old Covenant – ie the Law of Moses – not the covenant with Abraham. When God says that he will never cast away Israel, this is because the covenant with Abraham still holds.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) REALLY, THEY DIDN'T DESERVE THE MERCY THEY WERE GRANTED, BUT JEHOVAH'S LOVING KINDNESS WAS UPON THEM. YET, YOU ARE RIGHT. JEHOVAH HAD TO HOLD UP HIS END OF THE AGREEMENT, AND ONLY LET THEM BE HIS SPECIAL PROPERTY “IF” they keep their end of the agreement.
I think you'll find that the “if” passages are to do with the Law of Moses (certainly the one from Ex 19 above), and that the covenant with Abraham is unbrakeable. If you have specific pa
ssages in mind though, please feel free to raise them.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) IT'S TRUE THAT YOU CAN SHOW SEVERAL SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF JEHOVAH FORGIVING THE ISRAELITES. HE DID THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WANTING THEM TO REPENT. AMOS 9:8
““‘Look! The eyes of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah are upon the sinful kingdom, and he will certainly annihilate it from upon the surface of the ground. Nevertheless, I shall not completely annihilate the house of Jacob,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”When we look at Jesus words, which I have already quoted, it seems that the kingdom was taken from them and given to another nation, spiritual Israel.
The Amos passage is a good quote – thanks, I didn't have that one. Sure, the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel now, but Paul is so clear in Romans 11 about how natural Israel is going to rejoin the “olive tree”.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) Quote “Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:37)
“all” the seed of Israel, will not be cast off, “for,” as Paul said, “I am also an Israelite.” Individual Israelites could still make up the Israel of God, but the nation as a whole was rejected.
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:” (Jeremiah 31:31)Do you think this passage is talking about the nation of Israel, or individuals within Israel? The phrase “house of Israel and the house of Judah” sounds pretty national to me.
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) Quote Please take the time to read these verses carefully in context – you'll see that these passages all clearly speak of Israel after the flesh, and that God will never be unfaithful to them: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:30).
I completely expect and know that Jehovah will fulfill his end of the agreement–an agreement which the fleshly Israelites broke–they “did not continue in my covenant.”
Again, the covenant between Abraham and God is different to the covenant made in Exodus – that's really important.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) Quote Finally for now, this verse speaks in language at least as strong as any of the (many) passages above: “But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” (Isaiah 45:17)
Jehovah promises eternal salvation for Israel, but this is conditional. Israel must remain “in union with Jehovah.” When Israel breaks that union by rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, the nation will lose its prospect of “salvation for times indefinite.” However, some in Israel will exercise faith in Jesus, and these will become the nucleus of the Israel of God, which will take the place of fleshly Israel. (Matthew 21:43; Galatians 3:28, 29; 1 Peter 2:9) Spiritual Israel will never be humiliated. It will be taken into “an everlasting covenant.”—Hebrews 13:20.
What I'm trying to say is that the nation as a whole will repent (even though some individuals within the nation may not). I think it's clear from the passages that I've raised in previous posts that that the nation will repent, not just individuals. If you disagree, please can you bring up specific passages that I've raised.Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2006,06:04) “Hear another illustration: (…)
(MATTHEW 21:33-43)
How does Jehovah respond when you are repeatedly unrepentant and are a “sinful kingdom” and do not “strictly obey his voice” or keep his “covenant” and even reject his very son?
Jesus provided the answer in the illustration above.
As above – Israel will be grafted back into the olive tree that they were taken out of.God bless
SamFor I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” (Jeremiah 30:11)
This passage is saying that the nation is Israel is special, as opposed to nations where Israel had been scattered – ie Babylon, Assyria etc.
This can't be talking about spiritual Israel in any sense, because the contrast is between the literal nation of Israel and literal countries like Babylon and Assyria.
So is there, or is there not, something special for all time about the literal nation of Israel?
Please can you respond to the specific passages that I bring up – there's a growing backlog of quotes that I feel are well deserving of attention!
Especially my posts on pages 6, 10 and 11 please. After all, I make the effort to go through everything that you raise.
Thanks
Hey Sammo.
OF JEHOVAH IT IS SAID:
2 CHRONICLES 2:6
“And who could retain power to build him a house? For the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him. . . .”
1 KINGS 8:27
““But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!”
ACTS 17:24
“The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,”SO IT SEEMS THAT GOD ALMIGHTY CANNOT BE CONTAINED OR CONFINED TO HANDMADE TEMPLES. He does not “dwell upon the earth,” and “does not dwell in handmade temples.” The heavens of the heavens cannot contain him. Figuratively speaking, he can be said to have a house or his spirit resides somewhere, but Jehovah himself–does not dwell on the earth.
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
(I guess this scripture doesn’t actually specifically say that these thrones are in the same places, but in my mind, the thrones seem to be connected.)Jesus, second only to Jehovah is a great spirit being. (See Mat 28:19; Dan 7:14; Eph 1:21; Phil 2:9) He has dwelled in the heavens for eons. It is where he is from. It is his home. It’s true, Jesus “became flesh and resided among us” for an extremely short period of time compared to his existence in the heavens. (John 1:14) He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form.” (Phil 2:7) This is because he had to be tested and provide the ransom sacrifice. But he resides with his Father, in the heavens.
JOHN 14:2
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU.” (Remember those scriptures above that speak of Jehovah NOT DWELLING ON THE EARTH, IN HANDMADE TEMPLES.)
And yes, angels have from time to time materialized human bodies, as I believe you have said. But they too, being spirit beings have a “proper dwelling place,” in the heavens, in the spirit realm. (Jude 6) It’s there proper dwelling place because they are spirits and belong in the spirit realm.***
Ok, maybe we were confusing covenants. Maybe we still are.
There is the Abrahamic Covenant, a unilateral covenant, a promise basically, that is “to time indefinite.”
And there is the Law Covenant (Mosaic Covenant, Old Covenant) which is bilateral, an agreement with Israel, that came 430 years later.
And true enough, the Law Covenant does not invalidate the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gal 3:17)
The New Covenant replaced the Old covenant.The terms of the Law covenant were that if the Israelites kept the covenant they would be a people for the name of Jehovah, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, with His blessing (Ex 19:5, 6; De 28:1-14); IF THEY VIOLATED THE COVENANT, THEY WOULD BE CURSED. (De 28:15-68)
****
Again, for clarity, I’m not saying that the grand majority of those who are rewarded with everlasting life will not enjoy life on earth. The meek shall inherit the earth.
I do not believe they will have spirit bodies.
I have a question: Had Adam and Eve not sinned, taking us down this path, would they eventually be given spirit bodies? If the destiny of people was to become spirit creatures, like the angels, why not just make them that way originally, and remove the wicked ones, as the wicked angels will be removed?***
I want to next look at who the Abrahamic covenant applies to. But right now, I need sleep.
Also, Sammo, I read through page 6. It would take me a while to respond to everything. Is there anything specifically that you want discussed immediately?David.
Hi David
Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) OF JEHOVAH IT IS SAID:
2 CHRONICLES 2:6
“And who could retain power to build him a house? For the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him. . . .”(snip)
SO IT SEEMS THAT GOD ALMIGHTY CANNOT BE CONTAINED OR CONFINED TO HANDMADE TEMPLES. He does not “dwell upon the earth,” and “does not dwell in handmade temples.” The heavens of the heavens cannot contain him. Figuratively speaking, he can be said to have a house or his spirit resides somewhere, but Jehovah himself–does not dwell on the earth.
If God can't be contained in either heaven or earth, how does this have any bearing on what we're discussing? I could equally say that because heaven can't contain God, then the Kingdom must be some other place, which would be equally unhelpful! I don't see that this is particularly related to the issue at hand.Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
(I guess this scripture doesn’t actually specifically say that these thrones are in the same places, but in my mind, the thrones seem to be connected.)
I believe that the throne Jesus is going to sit on is emphatically on earth. Important quotes are 2 Sam 7:16, Luke 1:32, Ezek 21:26-27, Zech 14:17, Isa 2:2-4 (and Mic 4:1-3), Acts 1:6 and Ezek 37:25 – I briefly talked about all of these on page 6.Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) JOHN 14:2
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU.” (Remember those scriptures above that speak of Jehovah NOT DWELLING ON THE EARTH, IN HANDMADE TEMPLES.)
Yet many times in scripture is the house of God defined as being on earth.Besides which, don't you believe that the 12 apostles will reign on earth? Jesus was saying this to them, so if he was saying that their reward would be in his Father's house, how can this house possibly be in heaven? Just doesn't add up. My apologies if I'm misrepresenting you.
Just because Jesus is in heaven now, preparing us a reward, does not mean to say that we must receive our reward in heaven. And especially not when there are so many scriptures that say the opposite!
Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) Ok, maybe we were confusing covenants. Maybe we still are.
There is the Abrahamic Covenant, a unilateral covenant, a promise basically, that is “to time indefinite.”
And there is the Law Covenant (Mosaic Covenant, Old Covenant) which is bilateral, an agreement with Israel, that came 430 years later.
And true enough, the Law Covenant does not invalidate the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gal 3:17)
The New Covenant replaced the Old covenant.The terms of the Law covenant were that if the Israelites kept the covenant they would be a people for the name of Jehovah, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, with His blessing (Ex 19:5, 6; De 28:1-14); IF THEY VIOLATED THE COVENANT, THEY WOULD BE CURSED. (De 28:15-68)
Completely agreed, and yes – they sure were cursed – just look at their history. But the whole point from Galatians 3 is that the promises to Abraham still hold, and natural Israel can never be completely cast away be God.That's why when you read on to Deuteronomy 30 we find that no matter how scattered or persecuted Israel became (and note: this is AFTER they've broken the covenant of the Law of Moses, that's why they're being cursed), God would still have compassion on them because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
.
.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.Again – it all comes back to the promises to Abraham, which we're specifically told have not been fulfilled (Heb 11:13,19). This means that the events prophesied in Deut 30 must have a future application. Thus Israel is certain to repent, and to be saved.
Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) Again, for clarity, I’m not saying that the grand majority of those who are rewarded with everlasting life will not enjoy life on earth. The meek shall inherit the earth.
I do not believe they will have spirit bodies.
What kind of bodies do you think that the people on earth will have?Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) I have a question: Had Adam and Eve not sinned, taking us down this path, would they eventually be given spirit bodies?
I don't know – I guess so!Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) If the destiny of people was to become spirit creatures, like the angels, why not just make them that way originally, and remove
the wicked ones, as the wicked angels will be removed?
This way we can choose to serve him, even though we're hardwired with an inclination towards sin.Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) Also, Sammo, I read through page 6. It would take me a while to respond to everything. Is there anything specifically that you want discussed immediately?
Well, all of it really! Especially the verses I referred to above about the throne of Jesus being on earth I guess. Thanks.God bless
SamQuote (Sammo @ Mar. 23 2006,01:36) I believe that the throne Jesus is going to sit on is emphatically on earth. Important quotes are 2 Sam 7:16, Luke 1:32, Ezek 21:26-27, Zech 14:17, Isa 2:2-4 (and Mic 4:1-3), Acts 1:6 and Ezek 37:25 – I briefly talked about all of these on page 6.
Here are some others. David read these in sequence:1 KINGS 2:45
“But King Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD forever.”1 KINGS 9:5
then I [the LORD] will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, 'You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.'
(cf. 1 Chron 6:16)PSALM 132:11
11The LORD has sworn to David a truth from which He will not turn back: “Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne.
(cf Matt 1:6)ISAIAH 9:6,7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness.
From then on and forevermore
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.LUKE 1:31-33
31″And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”The throne of David is an earthly throne, not a heavenly throne.
More later…..
Hi Sammo
From a quick read of the last couple of pages I would have to agree with you that God has not forsaken Israel. The best scripture I know for that is Romans 11. I did not see it listed but it was a quick read.25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 23 2006,01:36) Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,06:30) If the destiny of people was to become spirit creatures, like the angels, why not just make them that way originally, and remove the wicked ones, as the wicked angels will be removed?
This way we can choose to serve him, even though we're hardwired with an inclination towards sin.
I do not believe we will be like angels which are spirit beings who dwell in the spiritual realm but we will have bodies like Jesus and will dwell primarily in this physical realm on earth (I assume we will be able to interface with the spiritual realm much the same as angels can in ours).I also believe that angels have no chance for redemption being immortal and having dwelled in God's presence their decision was eternal. It was all part of God's plan that our existence to be subject to mortality. I believe if Adam had ate of the tree of life he would have become immortal (much as we will be after the resurrection), That's why after he sinned God set up a barrier to the garden to prevent Adam from eating of the tree of life and then having to suffer the same fate as that of the wicked angels.
I also believe satan thought he had won when Adam sinned as he knew God would do what he said and that Adam would surely die. What he did not understand was that the physical life could continue to carry the soul without the spiritual side (which did die).
I believe this was God's plan, it included redemption of the body, soul, and spirit, But I think all this was done to prove His love and to show the extent He would go to redeem his creation and further more through this mortal creation he could portray the result of sin if allowed to continue. This way all of creation will understand why satan and all those who follow him must be thrown into the lake of fire.
I believe the above is based on scripture, but it includes speculation and is just my opinion.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 24 2006,09:15) Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 23 2006,01:36) I believe that the throne Jesus is going to sit on is emphatically on earth. Important quotes are 2 Sam 7:16, Luke 1:32, Ezek 21:26-27, Zech 14:17, Isa 2:2-4 (and Mic 4:1-3), Acts 1:6 and Ezek 37:25 – I briefly talked about all of these on page 6.
Here are some others. David read these in sequence:1 KINGS 2:45
“But King Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD forever.”1 KINGS 9:5
then I [the LORD] will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I promised to your father David, saying, 'You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.'
(cf. 1 Chron 6:16)PSALM 132:11
11The LORD has sworn to David a truth from which He will not turn back: “Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne.
(cf Matt 1:6)ISAIAH 9:6,7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness.
From then on and forevermore
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.LUKE 1:31-33
31″And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”The throne of David is an earthly throne, not a heavenly throne.
More later…..
AmenQuote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 24 2006,10:49) Hi Sammo
From a quick read of the last couple of pages I would have to agree with you that God has not forsaken Israel. The best scripture I know for that is Romans 11. I did not see it listed but it was a quick read.
Hi seekingtruthI agree completely, I think Romans 11 makes that point very clear. Thanks for bringing it up
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 24 2006,10:49) I do not believe we will be like angels which are spirit beings who dwell in the spiritual realm but we will have bodies like Jesus and will dwell primarily in this physical realm on earth (I assume we will be able to interface with the spiritual realm much the same as angels can in ours).
Although angels definitely have some kind of body, because people could often see and touch them in scripture – FWIW, I think Luke 20:34-36 sheds some light on this issue:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.God bless
SamQuote (Sammo @ Mar. 26 2006,20:47) Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 24 2006,10:49) Hi Sammo
From a quick read of the last couple of pages I would have to agree with you that God has not forsaken Israel. The best scripture I know for that is Romans 11. I did not see it listed but it was a quick read.
Hi seekingtruthI agree completely, I think Romans 11 makes that point very clear. Thanks for bringing it up
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 24 2006,10:49) I do not believe we will be like angels which are spirit beings who dwell in the spiritual realm but we will have bodies like Jesus and will dwell primarily in this physical realm on earth (I assume we will be able to interface with the spiritual realm much the same as angels can in ours).
Although angels definitely have some kind of body, because people could often see and touch them in scripture – FWIW, I think Luke 20:34-36 sheds some light on this issue:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.God bless
Sam
Hey Sammo
Equal does not necessarily mean same, actually in this case I believe it to mean, different but having shared characteristics.Angels can manifest in physical form, but I'm not sure it is necessarily their permanent form. I believe that the spiritual realm, and its beings, are not like our universe or man, but that even the laws that God has put in place to govern their existence are different.
That's just my opinion.
I've been gone for 2 days. I have 10 minutes, then I have to leave again.
This is just a scripture I noticed in John today, while reading:JOHN 17:4-5
“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”Jesus, being the firstborn “of” creation, has been around for at the very very very least, 13, to 14 billion years, as that's what scientist (and who knows how much you can trust them) say how old the universe is. Jesus is a spirit being.
He came to the earth for a specific purpose. He “finished [that] work.” “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”Quote (david @ Mar. 27 2006,00:13) I've been gone for 2 days. I have 10 minutes, then I have to leave again.
This is just a scripture I noticed in John today, while reading:JOHN 17:4-5
“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”Jesus, being the firstborn “of” creation, has been around for at the very very very least, 13, to 14 billion years, as that's what scientist (and who knows how much you can trust them) say how old the universe is. Jesus is a spirit being.
He came to the earth for a specific purpose. He “finished [that] work.” “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
Without wanting to divert from the topic of the thread, which I think is a fascinating one, I just wanted to point out that Jesus is also “firstborn OF the dead” (Rev 1:5). If we import the understanding that firstborn means 'first created' into Rev 1:5 then we have total confusion. Maybe I should start a new thread on the biblical meanings of firstborn……Hi David
I don't believe that Jesus existed until he was born, so John 17 isn't going to impress me much as an argument for heaven-going! Jesus is “the beginning” because he is “the firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18) – which happened around 2000 years ago, not 13 billion.
But as Isa 1:18 says, this should all go in another thread, as it's a bit of a different topic.
Sam
Quote I don't believe that Jesus existed until he was born.” Oh, well then I can understand how it makes more sense to you that the earth could become his home, if that was his original home and he hasn't lived in heaven with his Father for such a long time.
So just a quick question. How do you take this:
JOHN 17:4-5
“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory THAT I HAD ALONGSIDE YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”Jesus was on earth.
He finished the work he was given to do.
'So now Father,' he says, “glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”Christ is praying for his pre-assigned glory; glory that he had reserved alongside the Father before the world was!
He is not saying that he was alongside the Father (to use your phrase); he is praying for the glory that was alongside the Father before the world was!
“Christ is praying for his pre-assigned glory; glory that he had reserved [you added the word “reserved” here. That does change the meaning.] alongside the Father before the world was!
He is not saying that he was alongside the Father (to use your phrase); he is praying for the glory that was alongside the Father before the world was!“He is not saying that he was alongside the Father.”
It seems to me that it does say that.
JOHN 17:4-5
“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, GLORIFY ME ALONGSIDE YOURSELF with the glory THAT I HAD ALONGSIDE YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”Quote (david @ Mar. 27 2006,07:53) “Christ is praying for his pre-assigned glory; glory that he had reserved [you added the word “reserved” here. That does change the meaning.] alongside the Father before the world was!
He is not saying that he was alongside the Father (to use your phrase); he is praying for the glory that was alongside the Father before the world was!“He is not saying that he was alongside the Father.”
It seems to me that it does say that.
JOHN 17:4-5
“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, GLORIFY ME ALONGSIDE YOURSELF with the glory THAT I HAD ALONGSIDE YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
The word 'alongside' in your translation makes it sound as if he was physically there, which is perhaps misleading.As Adam said, I think it just means that God knew from the very beginning that Jesus would one day share his glory:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:20)
I don't think it's possible to reconcile this verse with preexistence. But please, start another thread if you want to follow this up – I really want to hear your response to the verses about the throne of David, for a start, and all the other passages that I've brought up thus far.
Greetings All
I don't know if this point was mentioned relative to the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation, if so my apologies.
The question was asked as to why the tribal order had changed, now I believe the missing tribes in the mentioning of the 144,000 were Dan and Ephraim.
In the Old Testament somewhere I am sure that these two tribes had their names blotted out under Heaven (i.e on earth) for setting up places of worship for false gods.
So that would explain why their names under heaven were replaced with those of Joseph and Benjamin.
However when we see the tribes next mentioned it is in the Heavely Jerusalem which has now descended to earth as seen by the prophet Ezekiel I think it is.
Showing us I believe that, whilst there are consequences for our actions on earth that must be accounted for. Yet if we are in the election of God our names can never be erased out of Heaven.
As to the question does anyone ever really get to Heaven? Revelation 21 shows us the Heavenly Jerusalem descending onto Mount Zion, and it is inhabited. Heaven comes down to earth and it is not a vacant lot…
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