Do men ever go to heaven?

[david]

A month ago, Is 1:18, you said:

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Wow I think I actually agree with David on something. :-0 A couple of other passages that I don't think have been mentioned yet: PHILIPPIANS 1 (NASB) 21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better. When Paul departed (i.e. died) he expected to be with Christ. REVELATION 4 (NASB) 4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. The context of this verse is pre-tribulation. I think these elders are men and not angels (as some suggest) because a distinction is drawn between the two in Rev 5:11: REVELATION 5 (NASB) 11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands The “many angels” are around the throne AND “the elders”, so obviously these two entities are discrete, otherwise why mention both? They also have crowns (Ch 4 v5). I don't think its an entirely clear cut issue but I think the evidence favours David's assertion.

Is 1:18, what I am asserting is that a small limited group do go to heaven to be with Christ and rule over mankind as priests and judges IN HEAVEN. Essentially, this thread is about whether any people ever go to heaven. I took your post above to be agreeing with me that some do go to heaven.

Yet, just above, you write:

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Hi Sammo, How's the PhD going? I believe the same as you.

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It was such a kick to take them through all the Scriptures proving unambiguously that Yahshua will actually reign as King from My Zion for 1000 years.

Yes, but Sammo believes that this is not a heavenly mount zion, but on earth where Christ will rule with his brothers or joint heirs. Just to clarify, what is your position on this Is 1:18?

[Is 1:18]

He he, yes fair point David, I can see how that might look like i'm contradicting myself. Just to (briefly) clarify my position, I believe that those who belong to Christ will be with him in Heaven until they return with Him at His second coming. Then they will rule with Him on Earth during the millennial reign. I looked into this quite extensively a few years back and think this position harmonises best with the data we have on the tribulation/millennium/marriage supper etc, but I don't have time to provide all the supporting scriptures right now. I will in time.

[Sammo]

Oh, well, we disagree on that then

Happy to discuss anytime.

[david]

I’m sorry for the delay Sammo. One of the reasons for my delay is that I like to be thorough and there is so much to cover. I now realize that if I wait to have a comprehensive statement on why I believe some do go to heaven, you would have to wait quite a while. I have a 38 page file that has formed and only the first 3 pages is organized, but it is these first 3 pages that have a lot of the stronger arguments. So I will put those pages down and more as I continue to sort through the scriptures I am finding.

I begin with this scripture which does not prove what I am trying to show, but that I do feel belongs somewhere in my file. I just feel like this scripture belongs in here somewhere, even though it doesn’t prove that some go to heaven.

2 PETER 3:13
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”(Compare Rev 21:1; Is 65:17; 66:22)
The heavens often represent or are associated with rulership. (Dan 4:26; Acts 7:49) The “new heavens” is the Kingdom for which Jesus taught us to pray. (Matthew 6:10) Since God is its Source and he dwells in heaven, it is called “the kingdom of the heavens.” (Mat 7:21) There is a new society of righteous people (a new earth) and there is a new government (new heavens) that will rule over mankind. This is really what persons pray for when they repeat Jesus’ words: “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matt. 6:10)
I concede that the present heavens (man made governments) which the new heavens replace are of course on earth, and that in the original fulfillment of Isaiah (65:17; 66:22), the new heavens represented a new governmental arrangement, on earth. Yet, I have reason to believe that this will not be the case here, that this was just a foreshadowing of heavenly things.

The following refer to the annointed, Jesus spiritual brothers, heirs with him of the kingdom:
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”

First, Paul mentions that their citizenship exists in the heavens, and then explains how this will take place, a refashioning of their earthly bodies conforming to Jesus glorious body. Jesus has a glorious spiritual body, a heavenly body. (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:44 where we are told that some would be resurrected with a “spiritual body.”)
A citizen is a native-born or naturalized inhabitant of a city or state who is entitled to certain rights and privileges denied others, and who, in turn, assumes the responsibilities attached to such rights by the authorities granting the citizenship.
It was especially significant when Paul wrote these words to the Christians at Philippi, one of those cities granted Roman citizenship, where ten years earlier his Roman citizenship had been trampled on. Worldly, Roman citizenship would be highly prized in Philippi, even something about which to boast.
Paul said that their bodies would be ‘refashioned’ to conform to Jesus’ “glorious body.” Notice the following scripture:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50
“There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.”

There is no allowance here for any mixing of the two sorts of bodies or the taking of a fleshly body to heaven. Compare John 12:23,24. Here we see that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. Yet, we are told that the holy ones would ”inherit the kingdom.” (Mt 25:34; Ro 8:17; Re 5:10) And they were flesh and blood while on earth. “There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies.” If flesh and blood, an earthly body, cannot inherit the kingdom, then it stands to reason that a heavenly body would have to inherit the kingdom of the heavens.
Note too that he said: “we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.”
Also, note that it says “the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort.” So in Philippians 3, where we are told that Jesus would refashion their bodies to conform to his “glorious body,” what conclusion should be drawn?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”
God has given such Christians the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED FROM THE CORRUPTION that is in the world through lust.”
Persons whom God calls to heaven will be immortal, incorruptible spirit persons, “sharers in divine nature.” (1 Cor. 15:42-44, 53; 2 Pet. 1:4) Since “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” these individuals must undergo a change. (1 Cor. 15:50) They must be given a “spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:44) Are not spirit bodies designed to live in the spirit realm, heaven?JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””
Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way:
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”
COLOSSIANS 1:5
“because of the hope that is being reserved for you in the heavens.”
Such ones are born again while yet in the flesh, that is, granted the position of spiritual sons of God, born of “incorruptible reproductive seed,” and their inheritance “is reserved in the heavens.” (Compare 1Jo 3:1,9.)
EPHESIANS 1:3-5
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN UNION WITH CHRIST, just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the ADOPTION through Jesus Christ as sons to himself,”
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”

The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22)

In the following s
cripture, Paul goes on to show that those persons adopted to be heavenly sons are referred to as “the things in the heavens.”
EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”
COLOSSIANS 1:20
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.”

Paul showed that some among humankind could enjoy a special relationship with God. God’s purpose, says Paul, is for what he calls “an administration [Gr., oikonomían, literally, “household management”]at the full limit of the appointed times.”
Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.”
The first stage of God’s “administration” is the gathering together again of “the things in the heavens,” preparing the congregation of Kingdom heirs who are to live in the heavens under Jesus Christ as the spiritual Head. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11; 1Pe 1:4)
ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”

How will God’s children be “glorified together”? Remember, Paul said that Jesus “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body,” and spoke of being “raised up a spiritual body.” What will this be like?
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
(Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”
Yet, notice these scriptures:
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
If no “man” may see God and yet live, then the children of God cannot be men when they become “like him” and “see him just as he is,” can they? As Philippians 3:21 says of the anointed, Christ “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body.”
When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) THESE SPIRIT SONS OF GOD HAVE VISION STRONG ENOUGH TO SEE AND ENDURE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. (Lu 1:19.) This is because they have spirit bodies, even as the anointed who “shall see him just as he is” are to be raised with “a spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:42)
It will be a body conformed to the “glorious body” of Jesus Christ (Php 3:21), who is “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3)

Ok, that should be enough for now Sammo. I think I'm going to take another break before starting page 4. Feel free to comment though, especially if I missed something.

david

[david]

Ok, I haven't done a few more pages, but would like to add a couple more scriptures:

PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1)
Which direction are the heavens? The word rendered “heaven(s)” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty, that which is above us, namely upward. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9)

HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.”
Other Bibles translate Hebrews 3:1 similarly. Doesn't this indicate that some will have “the prize of the upward call,” and be partakers of a heavenly calling? The dictionaries I checked indicated that a “calling” is:
1. impulse or desire to follow or do a particular job; a strong urge to follow a particular career or do a particular type of work.
2. a job, profession, occupation or vocation.
The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. It is a heavenly “upward call.”
EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”

I'll keep putting a few scriptures down at a time. This probably isn't as organized as you'd like it, but as I said, that would take me forever.

david.

[Sammo]

Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 06 2006,01:51)

How do you believe characters from the Bible fit into this small number? (144,000 right?) Who exactly will go to heaven?

Hi David

I'm still very interested in your responses to these questions, and briefly how you prove them from scripture – will be a big help for me replying to your posts.

Thanks
Sam

[david]

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Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 06 2006,01:51) How do you believe characters from the Bible fit into this small number? (144,000 right?) Who exactly will go to heaven? Hi David I'm still very interested in your responses to these questions, and briefly how you prove them from scripture – will be a big help for me replying to your posts. Thanks Sam

It's quite far down in my file before I reach those scriptures. I am primarily concerned with whether anyone ever goes to heaven and what people on here think, rather than who those people will be, and how many. I just found it so strange to realize that there are those who think that NO ONE ever goes to heaven.
At first, when I raised this question, I was suprised by how little I knew about it, how few scriptures there were that clearly showed what I believe. Now, after researching it, I am coming to see there are quite a lot more scriptures that I at first realized.
I will show those scriptures and explain, and in time hope to cover the 3 issues you mentioned, but for now, I would like to continue on the course I am on, just putting scriptures down that I think prove that some do go to heaven, before getting on and looking at why, and who.

Please bear with me. This will take more time.

david.

[Sammo]

You can't just tell me in two sentences?

[david]

Ok, sure.

But later, I will provide the scriptures.

I believe that the holy ones, the “small flock” of anointed who are joint heirs with Christ will inherit the kingdom, a government that will rule over the earth and that these will be priests, judges and kings, with Christ. Since they will be rulers, and do judging, there will have to be some people for them to judge and rule over. Not everyone makes up this “little flock,” but the Bible speaks of “other sheep,” and after mentioning the anointed in Revelation and referring to the number, (yes, 144,000) another group is mentioned, a “great crowd” which no man was able to number. These, by far the vast majority will inherit the earth. But as for the little group selected by God to be joint heirs with Christ, they will rule with Christ in heaven.
We differ greatly on Isreal. I believe natural fleshly Israel was rejected, found deficient, and replaced with “the Israel of God,” spiritual Israel. I believe that the covenant which you say is “forever” is more accurately transalted to “time indefinite,” (which sometimes can mean “forever,” but clearly doesn't in this case.) Those who make up spiritual Israel (which include some from fleshly Israel as well, people from all nations) are those who will rule with Christ for the thousand years.
Right now there is a remnant of these anointed on the earth, which number around eight thousand. They are all very very old, and their numbers continue to dwindle.
I hope this was of some help and answers you questions.

david.

[Sammo]

Do you believe the people that go to heaven have physical bodies, or are they just souls? Do you believe that we have immortal souls?

What happens to people who are bad in this life?

Where do you see people like Abraham, David, Peter, John and Paul etc. fitting into this – will they be in heaven or on earth?

What exactly is the state of those people that get to be part of the kingdom on earth?

When you talk about people that were “annointed on the earth”, what exactly do you mean? What's their role?

Sorry for being so inquisitive, but I'm keen to avoid us talking at cross-purposes. Thanks!

Sam

[david]

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You can't just tell me in two sentences?

Apparently, I can't. I tried. But I failed.

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Do you believe the people that go to heaven have physical bodies, or are they just souls? Do you believe that we have immortal souls?

Please read the second and third scriptures in Bold in the long post above.

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What happens to people who are bad in this life?

I wish to discuss whether or not anyone goes to heaven in this thread.

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Where do you see people like Abraham, David, Peter, John and Paul etc. fitting into this – will they be in heaven or on earth?

That would depend on whether or not they came before or after the covenant Jesus made with his followers, for a kingdom. (See Lu 22:28-30)

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What exactly is the state of those people that get to be part of the kingdom on earth?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Those who will inherit the earth, will be in the state of….happiness? In the state of humans? In the state of Florida? I'm not sure what the question is. Sorry.

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When you talk about people that were “annointed on the earth”, what exactly do you mean? What's their role?

Sorry, not “anointed on the earth,” but I meant the anointed who are still living on the earth. I should have just said those anointed to serve as kings and priests with Christ in heaven, those who have the “heavenly calling.”

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Sorry for being so inquisitive, but I'm keen to avoid us talking at cross-purposes. Thanks!

No problem.

david.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (david @ Mar. 09 2006,00:25)

Right now there is a remnant of these anointed on the earth, which number around eight thousand.  They are all very very old, and their numbers continue to dwindle. I hope this was of some help and answers you questions. david.

Hello David,
Tell me, how you arrive at this number?

Kind regards
Is 1:18

[Sammo]

Hi David

Apologies for leaving this so long. First I went away for a couple of days, and then I started writing up some notes on Israel – then I got a bit carried away and it turned into an essay which was taking a long time to write!

Still haven't finished my notes, but I can make some brief comments on your posts in the mean time.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

I begin with this scripture which does not prove what I am trying to show, but that I do feel belongs somewhere in my file. I just feel like this scripture belongs in here somewhere, even though it doesn’t prove that some go to heaven. 2 PETER 3:13 “But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”(Compare Rev 21:1; Is 65:17; 66:22) (snip) I concede that the present heavens (man made governments) which the new heavens replace are of course on earth, and that in the original fulfillment of Isaiah (65:17; 66:22), the new heavens represented a new governmental arrangement, on earth. Yet, I have reason to believe that this will not be the case here, that this was just a foreshadowing of heavenly things.

Has there ever been an original fulfillment of Isa 65?

]17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Have children ever died 100 years old, or lions eaten straw? We agree that this is talking about events on earth – do you really think that this has already had an initial fulfillment? When? I see Isa 65 as very strong evidence that the future kingdom will be on earth.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

The following refer to the annointed, Jesus spiritual brothers, heirs with him of the kingdom: PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21 “As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .” First, Paul mentions that their citizenship exists in the heavens, and then explains how this will take place, a refashioning of their earthly bodies conforming to Jesus glorious body. Jesus has a glorious spiritual body, a heavenly body. (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:44 where we are told that some would be resurrected with a “spiritual body.”) (snip) Paul said that their bodies would be ‘refashioned’ to conform to Jesus’ “glorious body.” Notice the following scripture: 1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50 “There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.” There is no allowance here for any mixing of the two sorts of bodies or the taking of a fleshly body to heaven. Compare John 12:23,24. Here we see that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. Yet, we are told that the holy ones would ”inherit the kingdom.” (Mt 25:34; Ro 8:17; Re 5:10) And they were flesh and blood while on earth. “There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies.” If flesh and blood, an earthly body, cannot inherit the kingdom, then it stands to reason that a heavenly body would have to inherit the kingdom of the heavens. Note too that he said: “we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.” Also, note that it says “the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort.” So in Philippians 3, where we are told that Jesus would refashion their bodies to conform to his “glorious body,” what conclusion should be drawn?

There's no reason that “heavenly bodies” can't exist on earth, is there? Angels can. After his resurrection, Jesus did. So where's the problem? Heavenly bodies are tangible too.

“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” (Phil 3:20-21)

Paul was waiting for Jesus to come from heaven, to earth. The fact that our citizenship is in heaven now, does not mean that it is necessarily there during the kingdom period. Especially since there are dozens and dozens of verses that clearly state that kingdom will be on earth – we'll get to these eventually I hope.

For instance, the only references to New Jerusalem – whatever you take that to man exactly – speak of New Jerusalem coming from heaven, to earth.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

1 CORINTHIANS 15:53 “For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.” God has given such Christians the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)

Incorruptible bodies can exist on earth, so there's no problem. The fact that our inheritance is reserved in the heavens does not mean that our inheritance will be in heaven. In fact, in Jesus we're heirs of the promises made to Abraham, which clearly speaks of land on earth as our inheritance.

Just quickly re. the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – we're clearly told that these have not been fulfilled yet (Heb 11:13,39). And while we're there, we all the same hope (v40) – not some
on earth and some in heaven.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

2 PETER 1:4 “Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED FROM THE CORRUPTION that is in the world through lust.” (snip)

Spiritual bodies are tangible too – as can be seen from angels, and Jesus himself. There is no reason that spiritual bodies can't live on earth.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way: 1 PETER 1:3,4,23 “According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.” COLOSSIANS 1:5 “because of the hope that is being reserved for you in the heavens.” Such ones are born again while yet in the flesh, that is, granted the position of spiritual sons of God, born of “incorruptible reproductive seed,” and their inheritance “is reserved in the heavens.” (Compare 1Jo 3:1,9.) EPHESIANS 1:3-5 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN UNION WITH CHRIST, just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the ADOPTION through Jesus Christ as sons to himself,” EPHESIANS 2:6 “and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”

As above. That our hope is reserved in heaven does not mean that we cannot have our hope fulfilled on earth.

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22)

Well, exactly! Are you literally in heaven now? Or is it speaking figuratively? If you're not literally in heaven now, then why should you be in the future?

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

In the following scripture, Paul goes on to show that those persons adopted to be heavenly sons are referred to as “the things in the heavens.” EPHESIANS 1:9-11 “he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,” COLOSSIANS 1:20 “and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.” Paul showed that some among humankind could enjoy a special relationship with God. God’s purpose, says Paul, is for what he calls “an administration [Gr., oikonomían, literally, “household management”]at the full limit of the appointed times.” Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.” The first stage of God’s “administration” is the gathering together again of “the things in the heavens,” preparing the congregation of Kingdom heirs who are to live in the heavens under Jesus Christ as the spiritual Head. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11; 1Pe 1:4) ROMANS 8:16-17 “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”

I'm afraid that's quite a long bow – especially when we've already seen that he must be talking figuratively, unless you think that you're literally in heaven now. You can hardly take this as evidence that there will be a separate group rewarded in heaven, can you?

Re. Romans 8, what do you think we're heirs of exactly? Paul tells us extremely plainly in Galatians 3:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal 3:29)

Everything bubbles down to the promises made to Abraham – which we're specifically told have not yet been fulfilled (Heb 11:13,39), and clearly involves land on earth (Gen 13:14-17).

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,03:59)

How will God’s children be “glorified together”? Remember, Paul said that Jesus “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body,” and spoke of being “raised up a spiritual body.” What will this be like? (snip) When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) (snip)

Exactly – and Jesus and the angels have tangible bodies that people have reached out and touched. There's no reason that these bodies can't exist on earth. That's what we've been promised.

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,19:33)

Ok, I haven't done a few more pages, but would like to add a couple more scriptures: PHILIPPIANS 3:14 “I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1) Which direction are the heavens? The word rendered “heaven(s)” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty, that which is above us, namely upward. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9)

I'm not convinced that this means any more than that our call is from heaven. I don't see how it necessitates that we go to heaven.

Paul was bound for “the hope of Israel” (Acts 28:20). Has the hope of Israel ever been to go to heaven?

Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2006,19:33)

HEBREWS 3:1 “Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.” Other Bibles translate Hebrews 3:1 similarly. Doesn't this indicate that some will have “the prize of the upward call,” and be partakers of a heavenly calling? The dictionaries I checked indicated that a “calling” is: 1. impulse or desire to follow or do a particular job; a strong urge to follow a particular career or do a particular type of work. 2. a job, profession, occupation or vocation. The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. It is a heavenly “upward call.” EPHESIANS 1:18-21 “the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”

The call is from heaven, sure. That's where God and Jesus are. Doesn't mean that the kingdom will be in heaven.

Paul waited for Jesus to come from heaven, to earth – this was when people were going to be saved (Heb 9:28). People will be saved on the day when Jesus returns to earth – not on the day that they die, to go to heaven. Going to heaven when you die is not taught in scripture.

[Sammo]

Also, I want to remind you that you haven't yet responded to my posts on page 6 of this thread.

Scripture is just teeming to the point of overflowing with references to God's love for Israel, and the promises he has made to them. Though in the present they continue to reject Jesus as the Messiah, one day they will repent, and be saved.

I've been reading through the Psalms recently, and these are some passages that caught my eye:

“Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.” (Psalm 130:7-8)

“The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.” (Psalm 132:11-14)

“Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good: sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant. For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.” (Psalm 135:3-4)

“Bless the LORD, O house of Israel: bless the LORD, O house of Aaron: Bless the LORD, O house of Levi: ye that fear the LORD, bless the LORD. Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.” (Psalm 135:19-21)

How else can we read these verses? God will redeem Israel, David's children (Jesus!) will sit on the throne in Jerusalem for evermore, God has chosen Zion, Israel is his treasure, God dwells in Jerusalem! How else can we read these verses!

And these were just a few passages that I happened to read in the last couple of days – they could be multiplied many many times over

[Sammo]

This is an article about Israel – very relevant to the coming Kingdom indeed.

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/israel.htm

[david]

Sammo,

A lot of what you base this on is your belief that these things apply to natural, fleshly Israel. I’m wondering what you think of such scriptures, that speak of the ISRAEL OF GOD?

The Bible tells us that not all who spring from fleshly Israel, are really considered the Israel of God. The children of the flesh [“Abraham’s children”] are not really the children of God. If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed.
Do you disagree with any of that?

ROMANS 9:6-8,16
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For NOT ALL WHO [SPRING] FROM ISAREL ARE REALLY “ISRAEL.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH ARE NOT REALLY THE CHILDREN OF GOD, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. . . . It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.””

GALATIANS 6:16
“And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”

Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”

Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, YOU ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED, HEIRS WITH REFERENCE TO A PROMISE.”

Jehovah made an agreement (a covenant) with fleshly Israel. They did not live up to it. How did fleshly Israel treat Jehovah's very Son? How do they regard him now? All the scriptures of Israel will still come true–but with regard to the Israel of God, spiritual Israel. Jesus made a “new covenant” with his disciples “for a kingdom.”
The children of the flesh are not really the children of God. If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed. This is what the Bible says.
Sammo, I wonder how these scriptures fit in with your beliefs.

david.

[Sammo]

Hi David

Quote (david @ Mar. 17 2006,06:43)

A lot of what you base this on is your belief that these things apply to natural, fleshly Israel. I’m wondering what you think of such scriptures, that speak of the ISRAEL OF GOD? The Bible tells us that not all who spring from fleshly Israel, are really considered the Israel of God. The children of the flesh [“Abraham’s children”] are not really the children of God. If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed. Do you disagree with any of that?

Yes, I completely agree with that, and also the passages that you use to prove it.

Quote (david @ Mar. 17 2006,06:43)

Jehovah made an agreement (a covenant) with fleshly Israel. They did not live up to it. How did fleshly Israel treat Jehovah's very Son? How do they regard him now? All the scriptures of Israel will still come true–but with regard to the Israel of God, spiritual Israel. Jesus made a “new covenant” with his disciples “for a kingdom.” The children of the flesh are not really the children of God. If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed. This is what the Bible says. Sammo, I wonder how these scriptures fit in with your beliefs.

Just because Israel didn't keep it's side of the covenant, do you think that God would be unfaithful too? After all, technically we screw up our side of the new covenant all the time – yet God is willing to forgive us! The same God that is willing to forgive us through Jesus is willing to forgive Israel too, provided they repent.

That God will never be through with Israel, no matter how much they sin, is clearly shown by the following verses:

“For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” (Malachi 3:6)

“For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” (Jeremiah 30:11)

“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2)

“And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.” (Leviticus 26:44)

“Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.” (Jeremiah 33:20-21)

“Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.” (Jeremiah 33:24-26)

“Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:37)

Please take the time to read these verses carefully in context – you'll see that these passages all clearly speak of Israel after the flesh, and that God will never be unfaithful to them: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:30).

[Sammo]

On the surface, it may seem that there's an apparent contradiction going on there – that God could be interested in both natural and spiritual Israel.

But the whole point is that natural Israel is going to repent – and thus natural Israelites will be judged on exactly the same criteria as believing gentiles.

God wants people to accept Jesus as their saviour and to repent of their sins, regardless of where they're from. But so far as natural Israel is concerned, it's been prophesied that they're going to convert en masse. When this happens, naturla Israel is going to become a subset of spiritual Israel. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11:

Quote

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That's not to say that every single individual Israelite is going to be converted, but certainly the nation as a whole will be. This is clear from the following verses:

“But at last my people will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors for betraying me and being hostile toward me.” (Leviticus 26:40, NLT)

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” (Zechariah 12:9-10)

“Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.” (Ezekiel 37:23)

Actually, entire chunks of prophecies are about Israel's repentance – Ezekiel 36-37, for instance, and Jeremiah 30-33. There's heaps and heaps in the Psalms too – honestly, so much in scripture is on this topic!

[Sammo]

Also, the fact that Israel still has an important role to play in God's purpose is clear even if you don't consider the Bible at all – that Israel still exists at all, and even more incredibly are back in their land – is an extremely clear and compelling testimony that they are still important to God. Incidentally, this was all clearly prophesied in scripture.

How did the Father in the parable of the prodigal son respond to his wayward child when he repented? Had he ever cast his son away?

Finally for now, this verse speaks in language at least as strong as any of the (many) passages above:

“But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.” (Isaiah 45:17)

World without end. Interested in your thoughts, you've got a lot to get back to me about.

God bless
Sam

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