Do men ever go to heaven?

[david]

For more than 1,500 years prior to Jesus’ coming as the promised Messiah, the fleshly nation of Israel was Jehovah’s special people. Despite constant reminders, the nation as a whole proved unfaithful. When Jesus appeared, the nation rejected him. (John 1:11) Thus, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders:

“The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43)

Recognizing that “nation producing [the] fruits [of the Kingdom]” is vital. Members of God’s new nation are members, not on the basis of their Jewish descent, but on the basis of faith in Jesus. Thus, this new Israel of God was something unique—a spiritual nation. When the majority of the Jews refused to accept Jesus, the invitation to be part of the new nation was extended to the Samaritans and then to the Gentiles. The new nation was called:
called “the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:16

When writing to anointed Christians of the first century, the disciple James addressed his letter to “the twelve tribes that are scattered about.” (James 1:1; Revelation 7:3-8) Of course, citizens of the new Israel were not assigned to specific tribes. There was no division into 12 distinct tribes in spiritual Israel as there had been in fleshly Israel. Nevertheless, James’ inspired expression indicates that in Jehovah’s sight the Israel of God had completely replaced the 12 tribes of natural Israel. If a natural-born Israelite became part of the new nation, his fleshly descent—even if he was of the tribe of Judah or Levi—had no significance.—Galatians 3:28; Philippians 3:5, 6.

In Jehovah’s eyes, non-Israelite members of this new nation are full-fledged spiritual Jews! The apostle Paul explained:
“He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28, 29)

It's true Sammo, that many Gentiles responded to the invitation to be part of the Israel of God, and this development fulfilled Bible prophecy. For example, the prophet Hosea wrote, as you quoted: “I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy, and I will say to those not my people: ‘You are my people’; and they, for their part, will say: ‘You are my God.’”—Hosea 2:23; Romans 11:25, 26.

16 If the spiritual Israelites were not under the Mosaic Law covenant, on what basis were they part of the new nation? Jehovah made a new covenant through Jesus with this spiritual nation. (Hebrews 9:15) When Jesus initiated the Memorial of his death, on Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he passed bread and wine to the 11 faithful apostles and said that the wine symbolized the “blood of the covenant.” (Matthew 26:28; Jeremiah 31:31-34) As related in Luke’s account, Jesus said that the cup of wine symbolized “the new covenant.” (Luke 22:20) In fulfillment of Jesus’ words, when the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost and the Israel of God was born, the Kingdom was taken away from fleshly Israel and given to the new, spiritual nation. In place of fleshly Israel, this new nation was now Jehovah’s servant, composed of his witnesses.—Isaiah 43:10, 11.

The prophet Hosea foretold that God, in rejecting the nation of natural Israel in favor of this spiritual nation, which includes Gentiles, would say “to those not my people: ‘You are my people.’” (Ho 2:23; Ro 9:22-25)
) To be sure, natural Jews were included in spiritual Israel. The apostles and others who received holy spirit at Pentecost in 33 C.E. (about 120), those added on that day (about 3,000), and those that later increased the number to about 5,000 were all Jews and proselytes. (Ac 1:13-15; 2:41; 4:4) But even at that, they were, as Isaiah described them, “a mere remnant” saved out of that cast-off nation.—Isa 10:21, 22; Ro 9:27.
Other scriptures elaborate on this matter. With the breaking off of some “natural branches” of the figurative olive tree, there was a grafting in of “wild” non-Israelite ones, so that there was no racial or class distinction among those that “are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Ro 11:17-24; Ga 3:28, 29)
) “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’” ” “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Ro 9:6; 2:28, 29)
Natural Israel failed to produce the required number, so God “turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name” (Ac 15:14), concerning whom it was said, “You were once not a people, but are now God’s people.” (1Pe 2:10)
The apostle Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel and applied it to this spiritual Israel of God, saying it is in reality “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.”—Ex 19:5, 6; 1Pe 2:9.
The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons. The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E. But more important, John received his vision upon a background of the aforementioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. In the light of such events, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.”—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.

[david]

REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me [Christ] on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

ISAIAH 66:1
“This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?””

So, Jehovah's throne is universal.
Anyway, Rev 3 seems to indicate that the ones who conquer the world, like Jesus, would all sit on Jesus' “throne” with him. And then it says: “…even as I….sat down with my Father on His throne.” And where is Jehovah's throne? Where is the earthly house that could hold Jehovah's throne? The very heavens are his throne.

“Throne” figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority (1Ki 2:12; 16:11) or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself (Ge 41:40; 1Ch 17:14; Ps 89:44); a reigning government or royal administration (2Sa 14:9); sovereign control over a territory (2Sa 3:10); and a position of honor (1Sa 2:7, 8; 2Ki 25:28).

[david]

Besides his kingly identity with the royal line of Judah, Jehovah was enthroned in Israel in another sense as well.
As Jeremiah expressed it: “There is the glorious throne on high from the start; it is the place of our sanctuary.” (Jer 17:12) Jehovah was spoken of as “sitting upon the cherubs” that were on the propitiatory cover of the ark of the testimony in the sanctuary. (Ex 25:22; 1Sa 4:4) The divine presence was symbolized by a cloud that reportedly produced a miraculous light that later Jewish writers called the Shekhi·nah´. (Le 16:2) While Jeremiah foretold the absence of the ark of the covenant when Israel would be restored from Babylon, this would not mean that Jehovah no longer purposed to be enthroned at his center of worship. As He said:
“In that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah.” (Jer 3:16, 17
Ezekiel’s restoration prophecies are in agreement, for in his vision of Jehovah’s temple in which no ark of the covenant was seen, he was told: “Son of man, this [temple] is the place of my throne.”—Eze 43:7.
Jehovah, whom even “the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain, does not have to sit on a literal throne or chair. (1Ki 8:27) He does, however, picture his royal authority and sovereignty by the symbol of a throne.

[Sammo]

David,

I agree with almost everything you say about Christians being a spiritual Israel, as opposed to natural Israel. But the whole point is, that one day natural Israel is going to repent. How could Romans 11 possibly be more clear? What about the all the Old Testament prophecies that necessitate natural Israel living forever in the land? And the OT prophecies that speak so clearly of natural Israel's repentance?

You haven't addressed a single quote that I raised.

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ Feb. 08 2006,07:17)

REVELATION 3:21 “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me [Christ] on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” ISAIAH 66:1 “This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?”” So, Jehovah's throne is universal. Anyway, Rev 3 seems to indicate that the ones who conquer the world, like Jesus, would all sit on Jesus' “throne” with him. And then it says: “…even as I….sat down with my Father on His throne.” And where is Jehovah's throne? Where is the earthly house that could hold Jehovah's throne? The very heavens are his throne. “Throne” figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority (1Ki 2:12; 16:11) or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself (Ge 41:40; 1Ch 17:14; Ps 89:44); a reigning government or royal administration (2Sa 14:9); sovereign control over a territory (2Sa 3:10); and a position of honor (1Sa 2:7, 8; 2Ki 25:28).

This doesn't address any of the quotes that I raised – you can't just raise more quotes, you need to reconcile the ones we've already got.

The simile in Revelation 3 doesn't mean that the throne of Jesus has to be in heaven. On the other hand, there's a whole heap of evidence that unambiguously says that the throne of Jesus must on earth. I'd appreciate it if you could take a second look at the passages I raised.

God bless
Sam

[Sammo]

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/israel.htm

This is an article that addresses the return of natural Israel to their land, and their future repentance. Romans 11 could be no more clear

[david]

Quote

But the whole point is, that one day natural Israel is going to repent. How could Romans 11 possibly be more clear?

Romans 11 is clear, especially when we compare it to other scriptures, as opposed to simply looking at it in isolation and drawing our own conclusions.

Rom 10:12 says “there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.”
In verse 19, “Nevertheless I ask, Israel did not fail to know, did they?”
And then verse 21,”But as respects Israel he says: “All day long I have spread out my hands toward a people that is disobedient and talks back.”

We must remember these words:
EXODUS 19:5
“And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me.”

We must remember that this promise was actually a covenant (a promise or agreement with conditions between two parties).

In Romans 11:1, we see one of those clear verses you speak of. Paul wrote, ‘I ask then, Did God reject his people? By no means!’ (Rom. 11:1; NIV) We must look at the rest of the verse though. “For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” What did Paul mean by this?

Paul could not have believed that the Israelites as a nation still had a special place with God, for the apostle expressed “great grief and unceasing pain in [his] heart” over their unresponsiveness to God’s goodness. (Romans 9:2-5)
At Romans 9:6 Paul adds: “However, it is not as though the word of God [to Abraham] had failed. For not all who spring from [natural] Israel are really ‘Israel.’”
Note what Paul is saying: that because the Jews rejected Christ, God no longer considered them to be Israel! The anointed congregation of Jesus Christ’s followers was now the real “Israel,” the instrument through which God would bless all mankind.—1 Peter 2:9; Galatians 3:29; 6:16; Genesis 22:18.

God, though, did not reject the Jewish people as individuals, for Paul pointed out:
“For I also am an Israelite.”
Yes, individuals within the Jewish nation, like Paul, could become part of spiritual Israel if they accepted Christ. Only “a remnant,” a minority, chose to do so.—Romans 11:1, 5.

ROMANS 11:7-10
“What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, BUT THE ONES CHOSEN OBTAINED IT. The rest had their sensibilities blunted; just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day.” Also, David says: “Let their table become for them a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution; let their eyes become darkened so as not to see, and always bow down their back.””

Some, however, anticipate a dramatic change of heart on the part of all natural Jews. Interestingly, Paul does say at Romans 11:25, 26: “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel UNTIL the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved.”

Was Paul predicting a future mass conversion of the Jews? How could that be so, since he himself indicated that only a remnant of Jews would accept Christ? (Romans 11:5) True, Paul did say that the Jews would experience a spiritual “dulling of sensibilities” until “the full number” of Gentiles came into the Christian congregation.
However, Greek scholar Richard Lenski shows that here the word “until” does not necessarily imply some later conversion. (Compare the use of “until” at Acts 7:17, 18 and Revelation 2:25.) Paul is actually saying that the natural Jews’ sensibilities would remain ‘dull’ right down to the end. God, however, wisely completes “the full number” of spiritual Israel (144,000) by bringing believing Gentiles into the Christian congregation. “And in this manner [not by the Jewish nation’s change of heart] all [spiritual] Israel will be saved.”

Possessing the Promised Land—“For Ever”?

What, though, about the land on which the State of Israel is situated? Does God have some sort of special interest in it? Many think so. In Genesis 13:14, 15, God promised that He would give this land to Abraham’s seed “for ever.”—King James Version.

God merely told Abraham that his offspring would occupy this land, not forever, but for an “indefinite” period of time. (Genesis 13:14, 15) By rejecting Jesus Christ, they lost all claim to this land—and God’s protection.

The word “forever” as used in some Bibles:

The Hebrew word `oh·lam´ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746) Accordingly, expressions such as “time indefinite” (Ps 25:6), “indefinitely lasting” (Hab 3:6), “of old” (Ge 6:4), “a long time ago,” “of long ago” (Jos 24:2; Pr 22:28; 23:10), and “long-lasting” (Ec 12:5) appropriately convey the thought of the original-language term.

The word `oh·lam´ is at times associated with that which is everlasting. (1Ki 2:45, ftn) The prophet Isaiah wrote: “Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite.” (Isa 40:28) Jehovah is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” (Ps 90:2) Since Jehovah is immortal and does not die, he will continue to be God for all eternity. (Hab 1:12; 1Ti 1:17) However, the Hebrew expression `oh·lam´ does not in itself mean “forever.” It often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things’ existence can be said to be ‘to time indefinite’ because the time of their end is not then specified. For example, the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Law covenant came to an end with Jesus’ death and the bringing in of a new covenant. (Ex 31:16, 17; Ro 10:4; Ga 5:18; Col 2:16, 17; Heb 9:15) And the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Aaronic priesthood similarly came to an end.—Ex 40:15; Heb 7:11-24; 10:1.

Another Hebrew term, `adh, denotes unlimited future time, everlastingness, or eternity. (1Ch 28:9; Ps 19:9; Isa 9:6; 45:17; Hab 3:6) At times, as at Psalm 45:6, the words `oh·lam´ and `adh appear together and may be rendered “age-during, and for ever” (Yg), “age-abiding and beyond” (Ro), and “time indefinite, even forever” (NW). Concerning the earth, the psalmist declared: “It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”—Ps 104:5.

The Hebrew term ne´tsach can also denote everlastingness. Among the ways it may be rendered are “forever” (Job 4:20; 14:20), “perpetually” (Isa 57:16), and “always” (Ps 9:18). Sometimes ne´tsach and `oh·lam´ occur in parallel (Ps 49:8, 9), or the terms ne´tsach and `adh appear together. (Am 1:11) All three words are found at Psalm 9:5, 6: “You have rebuked nations . . . Their name you have wiped out to time indefinite [le`oh·lam´], even forever [wa·`edh´]. O you enemy, your desolations have come to their perpetual [la·ne´tsach] finish.”

In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word ai·on´ may denote a time period of indefinite or indeterminate length, a period of remote, but not endless, time. For example, at Luke 1:70 and Acts 3:21 ai·on´ can be rendered “of old,” “of old time,” “in ancient times.” (RS, NW, AT) Often, however, the context suggests that ai·on´ is to be understood to refer to a time period of undefined length because of such period being endless in duration. (Lu 1:55; Joh 6:50, 51; 12:34; 1Jo 2:17) Similarly, the adjective ai·o´ni·os (drawn from ai·on´) can, as is evident from the
context, signify both “long lasting” (Ro 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2) and “everlasting.” (Mt 18:8; 19:16, 29) Another Greek adjective, a·i´di·os, specifically means “eternal” or “everlasting.”—Ro 1:20; Jude 6, NW, RS, AT

Anyway, you are right. I didn't go through your scriptures one by one. It was a long post. I was short on time. Part of the reason is, I still haven't really put down the scriptures that I feel prove that a limited number go to heaven for a specific reason. All I've really been doing, is try to show that the things on the earth were a shadow of heavenly realities. Every now and then, I've thrown some scriptures down, but they've been unorganized. I will come back to this. I really do want to go through every scripture and every aspect of this in thorough detail.

david.

[david]

Sammo, are you still there? I really wanna discuss this subject and not leave any related scriptures unturned. There is a lot we have yet to touch.

david.

[Sammo]

Hi David

Yes, I'm still here – you said you'd come back to this, so I was biding my time! Sorry for the confusion, I should have told you what I thought the story was

I'm very interested in the verses you use to prove that a limited number of people go to heaven, and also in your interpretation of the verses that I raised.

I do have some thoughts about your last post, but now that I've stated my case, I think it would be best if I hold back until you've stated yours.

So that you know where I'll be coming from, this is an article from a Christadelphian perspective about what Jehovah's Witnesses teach about the Kingdom of God.

God bless
Sam

[david]

Sorry Sammo, I've been somewhat busy lately and I have the flu. As well, in the back of my mind, I feel I can't say anything until I have looked at every scripture related (which will take a while.) But, for now, let me just comment on this:

Quote

I agree with almost everything you say about Christians being a spiritual Israel, as opposed to natural Israel. But the whole point is, that one day natural Israel is going to repent. How could Romans 11 possibly be more clear? What about the all the Old Testament prophecies that necessitate natural Israel living forever in the land? And the OT prophecies that speak so clearly of natural Israel's repentance? You haven't addressed a single quote that I raised.

“But the whole point is, that one day natural Israel is going to repent. How could Romans 11 possibly be more clear?”
My next post will discuss Romans 11.

“What about the all the Old Testament prophecies that necessitate natural Israel living forever in the land?”
Consider how the the Bible as a whole uses the words that you believe mean “forever.” I believe I touched on that above.

“And the OT prophecies that speak so clearly of natural Israel's repentance?
It's true that Israel repented and then fell back and then repented and then fell back and then seemed to repent, and then rejected God's son. I'm not sure which prophecies you refer to.

david

[Sammo]

Hi David

Sorry you're unwell – get well soon, and take as much time as you need.

Sam

[david]

OK, Sammo, I've left this topic too long. I tend to shift interests quickly. Last time we were discussing this, I seem to have gotten bogged down in Hebrews, in spiritual Israel vs. fleshly Israel, and I may have been sidetracked and failed to see the whole.

Please refresh me as to what you believe:
You believe no one goes to heaven, but that Christ will come to earth, and the holy ones will judge the world and rule with Christ on earth….is that correct?

david?

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ Mar. 05 2006,07:08)

Please refresh me as to what you believe: You believe no one goes to heaven, but that Christ will come to earth, and the holy ones will judge the world and rule with Christ on earth….is that correct?

Hi David

Yip, exactly. I believe that there will be a 1000 year kingdom on earth where Jesus reigns as King from Jerusalem. Those who are judged faithful when Jesus returns will be made immortal, and have special roles in this kingdom – bear in mind that during this period there will be still be the mortal human population that survives Armageddon.

Then after the 1000 years, Jesus will the give the Kingdom to this Father, which will stretch on into eternity…

“Then cometh the end, when [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” (1 Cor 15:24)

Would you like to define exactly what you believe too?

Sam

[Sammo]

I should also mention that after the 1000 years will be a second resurrection and judgement – this one for everyone that lived during the 1000 years. After this judgement there will be no more sin and death in the earth – everyone left will be immortal.

Thus “the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor 15:26).

[david]

Essentially, we differ on this:
I believe the scriptures which speak of the the “Jerusalem above,” “heavenly Jerusalem” refer to a heavenly Jersusalem, above, in heaven. I believe that when earthly Jerusalem as a whole rejected God's Son, God rejected earthly Jersualem. And I believe his son made this known.
I also believe that much of the things we saw on earth under God's arrangement were just a glimpse of heavenly realities, a forshadowing of the heavenly things, a typical representation of the heavenly arrangement.

While we agree that God made the earth for man and man for the earth, I believe that God selects a small number of people to make up the kingdom of priests who will rule and judge over mankind for 1000 years with Christ. (The main point where we differ and what I would like to discuss in this thread, is that I believe Christ and his associate rulers will be in heaven.) While applying the benefits of Jesus' ransom sacrifice to mankind, people will be brought back to perfection.
Similarly to you, when the 1000 years is ended, Satan (who has been imprisioned) will be let loose for a little while, to test people who are now without sin, and perfect. Actually, I just realized that this paragraph isn't so similar, as I believe your beliefs on Satan the Devil are different than mine. (But that's another issue.)

david.

[Sammo]

How do you believe characters from the Bible fit into this small number? (144,000 right?) Who exactly will go to heaven?

[Sammo]

Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2006,01:33)

(The main point where we differ and what I would like to discuss in this thread, is that I believe Christ and his associate rulers will be in heaven.)

I'd appreciate it if you could answer the questions in my last post first, but maybe a good next step would be for you to present the main reasons why you believe the above? I'd appreciate it if you could try and be reasonably comprehensive, and then we can go from there?

What do you think?

Thanks.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 05 2006,21:17)

Quote (david @ Mar. 05 2006,07:08) Please refresh me as to what you believe: You believe no one goes to heaven, but that Christ will come to earth, and the holy ones will judge the world and rule with Christ on earth….is that correct? Hi David Yip, exactly. I believe that there will be a 1000 year kingdom on earth where Jesus reigns as King from Jerusalem. Those who are judged faithful when Jesus returns will be made immortal, and have special roles in this kingdom – bear in mind that during this period there will be still be the mortal human population that survives Armageddon. Then after the 1000 years, Jesus will the give the Kingdom to this Father, which will stretch on into eternity… “Then cometh the end, when [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” (1 Cor 15:24) Would you like to define exactly what you believe too? Sam

Hi Sammo,
How's the PhD going? I believe the same as you. Funnily enough I recently joined a small Bible study home group, made up exclusively of Anglicans (excluding myself). They immediately identified me as being somene who has studied the Bible more than most and asked me to lead a study on “what the kingdom of God means”. It was such a kick to take them through all the Scriptures proving unambiguously that Yahshua will actually reign as King from My Zion for 1000 years. They had absolutely no idea this was in the Bible.

Be well.

[Sammo]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 06 2006,03:41)

Hi Sammo, How's the PhD going? I believe the same as you. Funnily enough I recently joined a small Bible study home group, made up exclusively of Anglicans (excluding myself). They immediately identified me as being somene who has studied the Bible more than most and asked me to lead a study on “what the kingdom of God means”. It was such a kick to take them through all the Scriptures proving unambiguously that Yahshua will actually reign as King from My Zion for 1000 years. They had absolutely no idea this was in the Bible. Be well.

Hey Isa 1:18!

(Quite a mouthful that, isn't it!)

Long time no hear, how're things? PhD is taking too long and I'm sick of it, but these things are sent to try us

Stoked to hear you believe the same as I do on this, I always find it very encouraging when other people independantly come to share the same beliefs as I do.

Take care
Sam

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 06 2006,04:01)

Hey Isa 1:18! (Quite a mouthful that, isn't it!) Long time no hear, how're things? PhD is taking too long and I'm sick of it, but these things are sent to try us Stoked to hear you believe the same as I do on this, I always find it very encouraging when other people independantly come to share the same beliefs as I do. Take care Sam

Hey Sam,
Things are going well, thanks for asking. Although, life is a little too busy at times, as you can imagine. I know what you mean about being sick of the university thing. I thought I would never again have to sit an examination when I graduated, and then just last week my company enrolled me in a short block course that included a very nasty 2 hr exam. Not impressed.

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