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Sammo, I am wondering what you think of all the scriptures that talk about the things on the earth being a shadow of heavenly things, a typical representation.
Quote We know that the throne of David was in Jerusalem – which is quite clearly on earth.
Yes, but the Bible clearly mentions a “new Jersualem.” It is also called “the Jerusalem above.” Above? Above what? What does that mean? Well, we also find the expression: “heavenly Jersualem” in the Bible. All these are mentioned in my large post above.
So, yes, we know there was a Jeruslem on earth. It's a Jerusalem that rejected God's Son. And so, it's a Jerusalem that God fortold would be destroyed.
Jesus had called Jerusalem “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Mt 23:37; compare vss 34-36.) It is not this earthly Jerusalem, but rather, New Jerusalem, Jerusalem above, heavenly Jersualem that we can look to in fullfulment of many scriptures.Remember all those scritptures I quoted–the things which God used on earth for worship were an “illustration,” (Heb 9:9) typical representations, 'shadows of heavenly things.'
Jehovah, whom even “the heaven of the heavens” cannot contain, does not have to sit on a literal throne or chair. (1Ki 8:27) He does, however, picture his royal authority and sovereignty by the symbol of a throne. Certain ones of God’s servants were privileged to see a vision of his throne in heaven. (1Ki 22:19; Isa 6:1; Eze 1:26-28; Da 7:9; Re 4:1-3)
Jehovah extended his throne to earth in a typical, specific way in his dealings with the sons of Israel. Since the one ruling in Israel was to be “a king whom Jehovah your God will choose,” who would rule in Jehovah’s name over Jehovah’s people and according to Jehovah’s law, his throne was really “Jehovah’s throne.”—De 17:14-18; 1Ch 29:23.
As foretold in Psalm 45:6, and applied by Paul in Hebrews 1:8, Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as sovereign, has its source in Jehovah: “God is your throne forever.”
Anyway, didn't Jesus sit down at God's right hand? Isn't God's throne shown to be in heaven?
Sammo, I'm also wondering what you think about what I've already wrote.
david.
If you are of this world then all you will see is this world. If you are of heaven, then you will see so much more.
Right.
COLOSSIANS 3:2
“Keep YOUR minds fixed on the things above, not on the things upon the earth.”
Is that something like what you meant?Exactly.
Christadelphians usually cannot accept something if it is of faith. They believe on things that are earthly.
But they will be very surprised one day. I know that God has even shown me things that they would never believe.
I usually do not dialogue with spiritual things to carnal people. It is impossible for them to see anything spiritual for they are carnal.
If I do dialogue at all, it is to teach those who read the discussion.
Hi David
Thanks for your reply. Don't have time to do justice to your posts right now, but I promise I will come back to them.
But something I'd like you to think about from Hebrews 11 – Hebrews being the book that you're drawing many of your ideas from.
Quote 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
All the faithful people in Hebrews 11 have not yet received “the promise”. What was this promise? It's a major theme in Hebrews 11:Quote 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son
Moreover, verse 40 tells us that the promises that all the faithful people of the Old Testament looked forward to are the same promises that we look forward to – and that we're all going to get our promise at the same time.Quote 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Galatians 3 also makes this very plain – we all share the same promise:Quote 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So my question is: what was this promise?God bless
SamNone of the Righteous that sleep in death From Abel to even Abraham,Issac, or Jacob Israel( Hebrews 11:1-13, 39) and the Desciples have not yet either inherited the Promises, which is Eternal immortal life ( 1 Cor.15:50-54) on this earth, as later the New Jerusalem will come down to this renewed earth ( Rev.21:1-3).
For the meek shall inherit the earth( Remember?), or does only the meek inherit the earth, and the rest inherit heaven , does scriptures teach that?
Eliyah C.
Show me a scripture that promises that the saved inherit the third Heaven of YHWH'S Throne is at now ?
All scriptures promise the seed of Abraham , and even Gentiles that are grafed in, must go the way of Abraham in obedience of the New Covenant( Jer.31:33; Heb.8:10; Heb.10:16) to YHWH through faith in Yahushua Messiah, and they are promised Eternal immortal life on earth, as there will be a new heaven and a new earth( Rev.21:1-3).
Eliyah C.
So what makes it a “new” heaven? I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that Eliyah, (and Sammo). What makes it different or new from heaven?
And there's no need to quote me the scriptures that speak of the meek inheriting the earth. I have used them all countless times while talking to people in the ministry, and for the most part have them memorized. I find it very odd that for so long I was trying to convince people that they should be looking forward to an earthly paradise, instead of heaven, which they believed. And now, I am trying to show that some (a limited number for a specific reason) do go to heaven, are “bought from the earth,” to be joint heirs with Christ.dave
Also, how are you connecting the “third heaven” to Yahweh's throne? (2 cor 12:1-4) Does this have something to do with the rabbinic tradition of seven heavens, where there are divisions in heaven?
Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,21:18) So what makes it a “new” heaven? I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that Eliyah, (and Sammo). What makes it different or new from heaven? The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restored
Hence, just as saints are “new” creatures after rebirth …
(2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.So it will be for the creation … it shall be reborn/regenerated/restored … hence the “old” heavens & earth shall pass away! And the creation will become “new”!
(Mat 19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.[/quote]
The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restoredSammo, speaking of Heb 11, you say:
Quote “Moreover, verse 40 tells US that the promises that all the faithful people of the Old Testament looked forward to are the same promises that WE look forward to – and that we're all going to get our promise at the same time.”
But if you look, you will see two groups mentioned here–an “us” and a “they.”
HEBREWS 11:39,40
“All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for US [the anointed], in order that THEY might not be made perfect apart from US.”
During the Millennium, Christ and his 144,000 anointed brothers in heaven will act as kings and priests and dispense the benefits of Christ’s ransom sacrifice on earth. The other sheep will thus “be made perfect” in body and mind.—Revelation 22:1, 2.You also say:
Quote “All the faithful people in Hebrews 11 have not yet received “the promise”. What was this promise? It's a major theme in Hebrews 11:
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.”I think I shall just add this verse which belongs somewhere in there:
HEBREWS 11:10
“For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.”And I’ll add this:
HEBREWS 13:14
“for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.”
REVELATION 21:2
“I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Sammo, I’m not saying that no one will inherit the earth. I believe the Bible indicates that a very little number, of people, a “little flock” will be “bought from the earth” to act as our judges, priests and kings along with Christ Jesus, in the kingdom, or government.
LUKE 12:32
“Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.
But Jesus says there are “other sheep.” (John 10:16) By far the grand vast majority of people, a “great crowd” who are found fit for life, will inherit the earth. (Rev 7:9)You quote this scripture Sammo:
GALATIANS 3:29
“Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”(Compare Rom 9:8)
A covenant is another word for an agreement or a promise. For those Galatians, the blessing through Abraham’s Seed included their being participants in the NEW COVENANT and also being coheirs with Jesus, associates with Jesus in the seed of Abraham.
And here’s where we come back to scriptures like the following, that I’ve already quoted:
HEBREWS 8:8,9
“for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW CONENANT; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.””
HEBREWS 8:13
“In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.”
And scriptures like those bring us to scriptures like this, which talk about aspects of the old covenant:
HEBREWS 9:1-3
“For its part, then, THE FORMER [covenant] used to have ordinances of sacred service and [its] MUNDANE HOLY PLACE. For there was constructed a first tent [compartment] in which were the lampstand and also the table and the display of the loaves; and it is called “the Holy Place.” But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.””
HEBREWS 10:1
“For since THE LAW HAS A SHADOW OF THE GOOD THINGS TO COME, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect.”
Here is the “promise,” I believe you speak of:
GENESIS 22:15-18
“And Jehovah’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’””
This sworn oath was repeated to Abraham’s son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob (Israel), and then it continued in the tribe of Judah and the line of David.
To carry out His promises to Abraham, God laid the foundation for a nation by establishing a special covenant (agreement) with Abraham’s descendants.
Moses fulfilled the vital role of mediator of the Law covenant given by God to Israel (Exodus 2:1–3:22)
At Exodus 19:5, 6, God promised them: “IF YOU WILL OBEY Me faithfully and keep My covenant, . . . you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
Thus, the Israelites would become a ‘chosen people’ to serve God’s purposes, “if” they obeyed his voice.
In time the nation of Israel arrived at the Promised Land, Canaan, and conquered it, even as God had commanded. (Joshua 1:2-6) Eventually an earthly kingship was established, and in 1077 B.C.E., David, from the tribe of Judah, became king. With his rule, both the kingship and the priesthood were firmly established at a new national center, Jerusalem.—1 Samuel 8:7.
However, the Jews allowed themselves to be influenced by the false religion of the Canaanites and other nations round about. As a result, they violated their covenant relationship with God.
Jesus’ birth took place, not at Jerusalem, but at nearby Bethlehem, “David’s city.” (Lu 2:10, 11)
Jesus, on coming down the Mount of Olives, he paused to view the city and wept over it, graphically foretelling the coming siege and desolation it would undergo. (Lu 19:37-44)
On Nisan 11 he was with four of his disciples on the Mount of Olives, from which the city and its temple could be viewed, when he gave his great prophecy regarding Jerusalem’s coming destruction and “the conclusion of the system of things,” as well as of his presence. (Mt 24; Mr 13; Lu 21)
Jesus had called Jerusalem “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Mt 23:37; compare vss 34-36.) Though many of her citizens showed faith in God’s Son, the city as a whole continued to follow the pattern of the past. For this, ‘her house was abandoned to her.’ (Mt 23:38)
T
he temple was burned and gutted. The entire city was demolished, with only the towers of Herod’s palace and a portion of the western wall left standing as evidence to later generations of the defensive strength that had availed nothing. Josephus remarks that, apart from these remnants, “the rest of the wall encompassing the city was so completely levelled to the ground as to leave future visitors to the spot no ground for believing that it had ever been inhabited.” (The Jewish War, VII, 3, 4 ) A relief on the Arch of Titus in Rome depicts Roman soldiers carrying off sacred vessels of the ruined temple.—Compare Mt 24:2
Jerusalem remained virtually desolate until about 130 C.E., when Emperor Hadrian ordered the building of a new city, named Aelia Capitolina. This provoked a Jewish revolt by Bar Kokhba (132-135 C.E.), which succeeded for a time but was then crushed. Jews were not allowed in the Roman-built city for nearly two centuries. In the fourth century, Constantine the Great’s mother Helena visited Jerusalem and began the identification of the many so-called holy sites and shrines. Later the Muslims captured the city. Today there are two Islamic structures on the Temple Mount. Late in the seventh century Caliph `Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan built the Dome of the Rock on or near the temple site. Although also called a mosque, it is in reality a shrine. South of the Dome of the Rock is the present-day el-Aqsa mosque constructed near the beginning of the seventh century on the site of an earlier building.Sorry Sammo, I may have gotten a little off track with the history.
Your question was this: What was this promise?If Jehovah makes a promise, it will be fulfilled. If it is a conditional promise or covenant (agreement) and one party breaks that agreement, then it is broken. Gladly there is a “new covenant” that replaced it. And finally, if Jehovah decides to introduce a new arrangement, the kingdom, where some people would be bought from the earth to be with Christ, and rule as priests, judges and kings, then who are we to argue?
David.
Quote The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restored Hence, just as saints are “new” creatures after rebirth …
(2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.So it will be for the creation … it shall be reborn/regenerated/restored … hence the “old” heavens & earth shall pass away! And the creation will become “new”!
(Mat 19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restored [/QUOTE]But in what sense will the heavens be “regenerated, restored”? How, exactly will they change in your opinion, Pastor? (Pastor is your first name, right?)
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 07 2006,22:16) The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restored Hence, just as saints are “new” creatures after rebirth …
(2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.So it will be for the creation … it shall be reborn/regenerated/restored … hence the “old” heavens & earth shall pass away! And the creation will become “new”!
(Mat 19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The heavens and earth will be “new” because they will be reborn, regenerated, restored
Hi AdamAgreed completely, although often “heaven and earth” can be understood figuratively to mean a system of government, like David pointed out a few posts back. (As in, rulers – heavens, subjects – earth.)
Good point about Matt 19, hadn't thought of that – Jesus sits on his throne in the regeneration, on earth, and not before in heaven
Sam
Hi David
Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) Sammo, speaking of Heb 11, you say: Quote “Moreover, verse 40 tells US that the promises that all the faithful people of the Old Testament looked forward to are the same promises that WE look forward to – and that we're all going to get our promise at the same time.”
But if you look, you will see two groups mentioned here–an “us” and a “they.”
HEBREWS 11:39,40
“All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for US [the anointed], in order that THEY might not be made perfect apart from US.”
During the Millennium, Christ and his 144,000 anointed brothers in heaven will act as kings and priests and dispense the benefits of Christ’s ransom sacrifice on earth. The other sheep will thus “be made perfect” in body and mind.—Revelation 22:1, 2.
I understand vv39-40 to mean: “God has been very good to us because we'll all be made perfect together”. Do you disagree? Gal 3:29 certainly makes it very plain that we all have one hope – the promises to Abraham. Eph 4:4 also clearly says that there is only one hope, for everyone.I think it can be comprehensively shown that Jesus will reign from on earth, not from heaven, but I'll come back to that later.
Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) I think I shall just add this verse which belongs somewhere in there:
HEBREWS 11:10
“For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.”And I’ll add this:
HEBREWS 13:14
“for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.”
REVELATION 21:2
“I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Sammo, I’m not saying that no one will inherit the earth. I believe the Bible indicates that a very little number, of people, a “little flock” will be “bought from the earth” to act as our judges, priests and kings along with Christ Jesus, in the kingdom, or government.
Absolutely, Abraham and the other patriarchs looked for a new city – that's why they were “stangers and pilgrims” in the land that they were promised. Not because that wasn't the land that they were promised, but because they weren't going to receive that land until the new city was established – that is, the kingdom of God. The unescapeable fact is that Abraham was promised land (amongst other things of course), and that through Jesus, that is our hope too.New Jerusalem is referred to twice, and in each case it's described as “coming down from heaven”. The only two verses that mention New Jerusalem plainly state that it comes from heaven, to earth. Abraham and the other faithful of old weren't looking for a kingdom in heaven, they were looking for a kingdom from heaven.
Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) But Jesus says there are “other sheep.” (John 10:16) By far the grand vast majority of people, a “great crowd” who are found fit for life, will inherit the earth. (Rev 7:9)
But there was only to be one flock (John 10:16), as there is only one hope (Eph 4:4).Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) You quote this scripture Sammo:
GALATIANS 3:29
“Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”(Compare Rom 9:8)
A covenant is another word for an agreement or a promise. For those Galatians, the blessing through Abraham’s Seed included their being participants in the NEW COVENANT and also being coheirs with Jesus, associates with Jesus in the seed of Abraham.
Exactly – coheirs of what?Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) And here’s where we come back to scriptures like the following, that I’ve already quoted:
HEBREWS 8:8,9
“for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW CONENANT; not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.””
HEBREWS 8:13
“In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.”
And scriptures like those bring us to scriptures like this, which talk about aspects of the old covenant:
HEBREWS 9:1-3
“For its part, then, THE FORMER [covenant] used to have ordinances of sacred service and [its] MUNDANE HOLY PLACE. For there was constructed a first tent [compartment] in which were the lampstand and also the table and the display of the loaves; and it is called “the Holy Place.” But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.””
HEBREWS 10:1
“For since THE LAW HAS A SHADOW OF THE GOOD THINGS TO COME, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect.”
Sure, absolutely – but these verses contrast the Law with Christ, not the promises to Abraham.Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) Here is the “promise,” I believe you speak of:
GENESIS 22:15-18
“And Jehovah’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’””
This sworn oath was repeated to Abraham’s son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob (Israel), and then it continued in the tribe of Judah and the line of David.
To carry out His promises to Abraham, God laid the foundation for a nation by establishing a special covenant (agreeme
nt) with Abraham’s descendants.
Almost – the land is specifically mentioned as part of all 3 promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:Quote “For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.” (Gen 13:15) “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;” (Gen 26:4)
“And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.” (Gen 35:12)
This promise has yet to be fulfilled – yet this is the promise to which we are heir with Jesus (Gal 3:29, Heb 11:40).Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) Moses fulfilled the vital role of mediator of the Law covenant given by God to Israel (Exodus 2:1–3:22)
Sure, but don't confuse the Law with the promises made to Abraham.Quote (david @ Feb. 07 2006,22:40) Jesus had called Jerusalem “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Mt 23:37; compare vss 34-36.) Though many of her citizens showed faith in God’s Son, the city as a whole continued to follow the pattern of the past. For this, ‘her house was abandoned to her.’ (Mt 23:38)
Sure, but has God given up on Israel? Will Jerusalem always be abandoned? In another post.God bless
SamI guess there's a couple of different issues at stake here:
1) Where will the kingdom be – heaven or earth?
2) Where will Jesus be in the kingdom – heaven or earth?
3) Will the capital of the kingdom be literally Jerusalem, in literal Israel?These overlap quite a lot, but they're subtly different. I'll post about these seperately.
1) Where will the kingdom be – heaven or earth?
I believe that God's purpose is primarily with the earth:
Quote “But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.” (Num 14:21) “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.” (Isa 45:18)
“For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” (Hab 2:14)
“They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” (Isa 11:9)
————————————Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all promised land on earth (amongst other things), for ever:
Quote “For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.” (Gen 13:15) “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;” (Gen 26:4)
“And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.” (Gen 35:12)
These promises are yet to be fulfilled (Heb 11:39). Because Jesus was literally heir to these promises as Abraham's descendant, we can become heirs too, through Christ (Gal 3:29). Thus these promises also apply to us – our hope is on earth. The promises to Abraham are the gospel (Gal 3:8). In fact, the whole of Galatians 3 is extremely relevant. Therefore God's kingdom must be on earth.————————————
The kingdom of God literally existed in Israel when David and Solomon were king etc. King David was promised:
Quote And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. (2 Sam 7:16)
This is reiterated in the gospel of Luke:Quote “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:” (Luke 1:32)
In the kingdom, Jesus is going to sit on the throne of David. This throne was literally in Jerusalem – this is the same throne that Jesus is going to sit on in the kingdom. Therefore the Kingdom will be on earth.If further proof of this is required, we could turn to Ezekiel:
Quote “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.” (Eze 21:26-27)
Speaking of the cessation of the the kingdom of Judah, the crown and diadem were to be removed until they are given to Jesus when he returns to earth and the kingdom is established. It's the same diadem and crown – thus the kingdom must be on earth.————————————
The teaching of Jesus:
Quote “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.” (Matt 5:5) “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” (Matt 6:10)
Note especially the definition of “thy kingdom come”: “thy will be done in earth“.————————————
After Jesus was raised from the dead, he taught his disciples about the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). Then his disciples say:
Quote “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6) The apostles believed that Israel would have the kingdom restored to them – this kingdom could not have been a restoration unless the literal kingdom of Israel was to be restored (see above). This was after Jesus had taught them specifically about the kingdom for 40 days!
————————————
In the book of Revelation:
Quote “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:10)
This teaching is plain enough – although some people object that this phrase should be translated “over the earth”, and thus in heaven. However, elsewhere in Revelation the same phrase clearly means “on the earth” (Rev. 6:10, 7:1, 11:10, 13:14, 14:6, 17:8).Our hope is to reign on earth.
————————————
Many prophecies also make it plain that the kingdom will be literally on earth. For instance Daniel:
Quote “Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.” (Dan 2:35) “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Dan 7:27)
Daniel 2 describes the kingdom of God as a stone that destroys the kingdoms of men, as represented by an image made from different metals and clay. The stone then becomes a kingdom (v44) that fills the whole earth.This prophecy is parallelled in Daniel 7, where we read that the kingdom is under the whole heaven – ie on earth.
The kingdom must be on earth.
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Other prophecies refer to the kingdom literally being on earth – some of these will be addressed in following posts.
Is there really anyone that doesn't find this compelling?
2) Where will Jesus be in the kingdom – heaven or earth?
Much of the evidence for this has already been discussed above. In summary:
God's purpose is with the earth. If that is where God's purpose is, surely that's where we would expect to find Jesus when the purpose has been fulfilled.
Jesus was, as is, heir to the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These promises included land on earth. If that is the land that Jesus has been promised, then that's where we would expect to find Jesus in the kingdom.
Jesus is going to sit on the throne of his father David, wearing the same crown and diadem that were taken from Zedekiah. Also, the apostles looked forward to Jesus restoring the literal kingdom of Israel. The throne, crown, diadem, subjects and land of the kingdom of God will all be on earth. Therefore Jesus must be on erath during the kingdom too.
Daniel prophesied that the kingdom would fill the earth, and that it would be under heaven. Jesus is going to king – therefore he must be on earth during the kingdom.
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Other prophecies require Jesus to be on earth during the kingdom of God.
Quote “And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.” (Zech 14:17)
This is a picure of literal nations on earth coming to literal Jerusalem, to worship the King – Jesus. All this is on earth.————————
Isaiah:
Quote “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
“And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Isa 2:2-4 and Mic 4:1-3)
This is another picture of literal nations coming to the capital of the kingdom – literal Jerusalem. If the capital of the kingdom is literal Jerusalem, then where will the king be, Jesus?How could literal nations visit the capital of God's kingdom if it were really in heaven? Will there be nations in heaven?
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3) Will the capital of the kingdom be literally Jerusalem, in literal Israel?
I hope it's plain by now that the answer to this is emphatically yes. But does literal Israel still have a part to play in the plan of God?
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The apostles thought so:
Quote “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)
—————————Jeremiah thought so:
Quote “For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” (Jer 30:11) “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah… etc” (Jer 31:31)
“Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
“Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.” (Jer 33:26-26)
Although other nations would pass away, Israel never would – which is clearly evident through their amazingly miraculous history. Lots of people have tried to wipe out the Jews completely, and even though they were without a homeland for well over a thousand years, yet they still exist as a nation today. Of what other race is that true?Moreover, Jeremiah looked forward to the time when Israel would repent – Israel can, and will, be saved under the new covenant in exactly the same way we can be.
And as surely as day follows night, God will restore the kingdom to Israel. Their captivity would return, and God would have mercy on them – and we've seen the beginnings of this with the restoration of Israel in the last 60 years!
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Ezekiel plainly looked forward to the return of literal Israel to their literal land:
Quote “For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.” (Eze 36:24) “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.” (Eze 37:25)
“My servant David”, of course, is a prophecy of Jesus – who would literally rule over literal Israel.(I'm leaving out lots of verses I could include here)
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Amos says much the same thing:
Quote “And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.” (Amos 9:15)
How could this not be referring to literal Israel, literally planed in the land that God had given them?—————————
Paul's teaching is clear in Romans 11:
Quote 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Israel, as well as Gentile Christians, is going to be saved. Yes Israel has rejected Christ, but one day in the future they will repent. God has not cast away his people.—————————
Zechariah, amongst others, looked forward to the day when Israel would repent that they had rejected Jesus:
Quote And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)
Israel will repent. Literal Israel does still have a part to play in the purpose of God – and the capital of God's kingdom is going to be literal Jerusalem.Finally, I just want to quote the following from wikipedia, which I assume has the respect of most people that are going to read this.
Quote The concept of heaven was allegedly imported into Judaism from Zoroastrianism, perhaps by the prophet Daniel through his exposure to the Zoroastrian Magi of the court of Darius I. The belief in heaven appears to have supplanted the earlier concept of Sheol (mentioned in Isaiah 38:18, Psalms 6:5 and Job 7:7-10). Jewish converts to this concept of heaven and hell included the group known as the Pharisees. The larger, dogmatically conservative Sadducees maintained their belief in Sheol. While it was the Sadducees that represented the Jewish religious majority it was the Pharisees who best weathered Roman occupation, and their belief in Zoroaster's heaven and hell was passed on to both Christianity and Islam (in which heaven is referred to as Jannah).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeavenForget the bit about Daniel being influenced by Babylonian beliefs – but I think the rest is extremely telling.
God bless
SamQuote (t8 @ Feb. 06 2006,07:07) Exactly. Christadelphians usually cannot accept something if it is of faith. They believe on things that are earthly.
But they will be very surprised one day. I know that God has even shown me things that they would never believe.
I usually do not dialogue with spiritual things to carnal people. It is impossible for them to see anything spiritual for they are carnal.
If I do dialogue at all, it is to teach those who read the discussion.
I believe this says it all!1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
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