Do men ever go to heaven?

[Theologian-and-Apologist]

I believe men will go to heaven if they are saved, if no one will be saved, then there was no use for Jesus to die on the cross.

[NickHassan]

Hi TaA
So he died that men would go to heaven?
Is this written?
In Rev21 earth is our final fate.

[david]

Quote

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

–Tiffany

Tiffany, regarding your statement that you don't believe the anointed go to heaven, and your quote of this scripture in confirmation of it, I thought I would bring up this thread.

There is no question that God's will for mankind is that they reside on the earth. (Prov 2:21,22; Psalm 37; Mat 5:5, etc, etc.)
That was his purpose from the beginning in giving his command to Adam (and then Noah) to multiply and spread out over the earth.
And Nothing can change his purpose–a righteous society of people who truly want to serve God will live on the earth.
But cannot God institute another arrangement to deal with the problems that were raised when Adam plunged us into Sin and death?

The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. Jesus is a spirit and lives in the spirit realm. For eons he was a spirit. out of necessity he became a man for a very short time to undue the effects of Adam, but he is now a spirit again, at the right hand of God, with great power and glory.
When he became a man, the Bible says he became a little “lower than angels.” I do not believe he will lower himself to becoming flesh again.

Those who would rule with him, who would make up this kingdom, it is said of them:

ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”
Paul said that Jesus “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body,” and spoke of being “raised up a spiritual body.” What will this be like?
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”

It is my belief that the holy ones or anointed ones do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens.

EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”

Oh, sorry, I was going to comment on your scripture….
REVELATION 14:1-3 where we find the other mention of the 144,000 also speaks of those “bought from the earth.”
Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You BOUGHT PERSONS FOR GOD out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over* the earth.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

(At the Bible Gateway website, 3 of the Bibles translate it as “over” the earth and the rest “on” the earth. It can be translated either way. But since this is a heavenly kingdom, with Jesus, who is in heaven, as it's head, and since these ones rule with him, it seems they would rule “over” the earth from the heavenly kingdom…in heaven.)

Anyway, this is an interesting subject. Hope to hear from you.

david

[Tiffany]

david

Jesus is now a divine, glorified spirit being; God even gave him immortality.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength

His countenance is so bright it would blind us all if we were to look at him. What he did he did once, lower himself, become human.
What Paul says about becoming heirs with Christ, is meant only for the saints, those that died for him and will come up in the first resurrection.
John understood that too, but it is impossible for any human to explain what the spirit world is like.
The “holy ones, or anointed ones” must wait for their resurrection, but they will not go to heaven, Christ is coming down. Christ was raised from the dead and seated on the throne of God in heaven; Christs throne will be hear on earth, this is were he will rule, and all the saints with him.
God is King over all the universe, his throne is in heaven. Christ is King over the earth, his throne is on the earth were he will rule over the people.
There are two classes of saints if you will, kings and priests. In Rev. 7 and 14 we read about the 144000; twelve thousand from every tribe of Israel. In chapter 14 it says they were virgins, they were not defiled with other woman. This is not speaking of sex; these other woman hear referred too are other churches, other religions. The only way that is possible is, if you were an Israelite; coming out of obeying the law of Moses, into following Jesus Christ. Every Gentile has at one time or another, belonged to another church/woman.
It also says, these 144000 had the Fathers name written in their forehead; that is not to be taken literally, it means they took on the Fathers name. When does a child take on a fathers name, who is not the biological father? when he is adopted. These 144000 are the adopted sons of God who will share in Christs divine nature.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Also 1John 3:2, as you have already mentioned.
The other class, priests, is in

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is why the gospel had to be preached in all the world, they are all that were predestined to be called,

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

but they had to hear the gospel first before they could answer the call.
The entire great multitude of saints will rule with Christ hear on earth for a thousand years; by the end of the millennium, Christ will have this earth restored to paradise.

Georg

[dirtyknections]

Quote (david @ Jan. 02 2009,16:33)

Quote Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. –Tiffany Tiffany, regarding your statement that you don't believe the anointed go to heaven, and your quote of this scripture in confirmation of it, I thought I would bring up this thread. There is no question that God's will for mankind is that they reside on the earth.  (Prov 2:21,22; Psalm 37; Mat 5:5, etc, etc.) That was his purpose from the beginning in giving his command to Adam (and then Noah) to multiply and spread out over the earth.   And Nothing can change his purpose–a righteous society of people who truly want to serve God will live on the earth. But cannot God institute another arrangement to deal with the problems that were raised when Adam plunged us into Sin and death? The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ.  This is their calling.  Jesus is a spirit and lives in the spirit realm.  For eons he was a spirit.  out of necessity he became a man for a very short time to undue the effects of Adam, but he is now a spirit again, at the right hand of God, with great power and glory.   When he became a man, the Bible says he became a little “lower than angels.”  I do not believe he will lower himself to becoming flesh again.   Those who would rule with him, who would make up this kingdom, it is said of them: ROMANS 8:16-17 “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.” Paul said that Jesus “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body,” and spoke of being “raised up a spiritual body.”  What will this be like? 1 JOHN 3:2 “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.” It is my belief that the holy ones or anointed ones do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens. EPHESIANS 1:18-21 “the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.” Oh, sorry, I was going to comment on your scripture…. REVELATION 14:1-3 where we find the other mention of the 144,000 also speaks of those “bought from the earth.” Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You BOUGHT PERSONS FOR GOD out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over* the earth.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”  Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6. (At the Bible Gateway website, 3 of the Bibles translate it as “over” the earth and the rest “on” the earth.  It can be translated either way.  But since this is a heavenly kingdom, with Jesus, who is in heaven, as it's head, and since these ones rule with him, it seems they would rule “over” the earth from the heavenly kingdom…in heaven.) Anyway, this is an interesting subject.  Hope to hear from you. david

do more research brother david…. those scriptures you quoted are referring to the land that god promised the isrealites….

“Society” even confirms this…check your bound volumes…

[david]

Tiffany, Hi.

You say:

Quote

His countenance is so bright it would blind us all if we were to look at him. What he did he did once, lower himself, become human.

I agree.  What he did, “he did once, lower himself, become human.”  He of course NEEDED to become a human to give his perfect human life as a “corresponding ransom.”  It was necessary.  

But now, as you say:

Quote

Jesus is now a divine, glorified spirit being; God even gave him immortality.

Humans cannot now see Jesus, or God.  As you say, his countenance is bright.  He is now a glorified spirit being.

And you say:

Quote

it is impossible for any human to explain what the spirit world is like.

True, at present, yet note God's word:
“BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.” (1 John)

You say:

Quote

These 144000 are the adopted sons of God who will share in Christs divine nature.

To me, the words “divine nature” imply that they are spirit beings.

Tiffany, I agree with much of what you say.  But I believe that those who make up the heavenly kingdom (an arrangement set up by God to deal with the effects of human history without God) will rule with Christ from heaven.

Just to be clear, do you believe that no one goes to heaven, ever?

[Tiffany]

david

To answer your last question first, yes, that is what I believe.
Scripture in 1 John is meant for the saints only, after their resurrection.
No, angels are spirit beings, but none are divine.
All the saints will receive a new nature, spirit, but only the 144000 will share in Christs divine nature.
Think about why Jesus said this.

Jhn 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

To me that is very clear, and scriptural.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Certainly those he was speaking to who were not following the way could not come with him.
Would you apply that to all men?

[dirtyknections]

Quote (david @ Jan. 05 2009,13:55)

Tiffany, Hi. You say: Quote His countenance is so bright it would blind us all if we were to look at him. What he did he did once, lower himself, become human. I agree.  What he did, “he did once, lower himself, become human.”  He of course NEEDED to become a human to give his perfect human life as a “corresponding ransom.”  It was necessary.   But now, as you say: Quote Jesus is now a divine, glorified spirit being; God even gave him immortality. Humans cannot now see Jesus, or God.  As you say, his countenance is bright.  He is now a glorified spirit being. And you say: Quote it is impossible for any human to explain what the spirit world is like. True, at present, yet note God's word: “BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.” (1 John) You say: Quote These 144000 are the adopted sons of God who will share in Christs divine nature. To me, the words “divine nature” imply that they are spirit beings. Tiffany, I agree with much of what you say.  But I believe that those who make up the heavenly kingdom (an arrangement set up by God to deal with the effects of human history without God) will rule with Christ from heaven. Just to be clear, do you believe that no one goes to heaven, ever?

Revelation 14 (New International Version)

Revelation 14

The Lamb and the 144,000

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

David…can you explain why you believe the 144,000 mentioned in the above scripture is LITERAL and EVERYTHING else in the scripture is symbolic?

[Tiffany]

Nick, you have proven again that you don't read what I write.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Thanks georg,
Perhaps you could express what you mean more clearly?

[Tiffany]

What is it that you don't understand?

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
I agree the home planned for men is earth.
But since our master went to heaven it is possible we may be able to visit there as well?

[Tiffany]

As always, you speak with such assurance, it's comforting.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
You said in another thread
“But David has made this charge against you Nick, that you do not believe that any man goes to heaven, ever! Now this is a big deal for me because it flies in the face of everything that Christianity is.”
So please expound where scripture says the final home of men is heaven

Rev 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[NickHassan]

Hi DK,
You wrote in another thread about this quote.

“The meek shall inherit the earth “

“The scripture you are quoting is referring to the promised land brother nick… “

So moving beyond the Millenium to Rev 21 do we see men in heaven?
Looking back though Revelation are any men shown in heaven?
There are 24 elders but are they men?

[david]

TOPIC AL.

[Cindy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 06 2009,09:53)

Hi Georg, I agree the home planned for men is earth. But since our master went to heaven it is possible we may be able to visit there as well?

Nick

NO

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi,
This is interesting
Mk13
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

[NickHassan]

For kat

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