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Hi david,
Luke 24:39
” See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”Either you deny that Christ can enter the kingdom[1Cor15]
or you make him by your assumptions into a liar and a trickster.He was resurrected david
believeActs 1:22
beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us–one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”Quote Either you deny that Christ can enter the kingdom[1Cor15] And this makes no sense, for I argue that he was a spirit (“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom”) and you argue that he was flesh, a man.
So perhaps you deny this? Is that not what the scripture says? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom?Quote or you make him by your assumptions into a liar and a trickster.
Ummm. Don't remember doing that, Nick. The Bible is correct when it says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, though.Quote Do you not believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
NIck, sometimes I question your motives. Where Oh where did I ever in the slightest question Jesus resurrection? PLEASE, oh, please, show us all where I did this.
Why do you like to misrepresent me so much?1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”LUKE 24:31-35
“. . . he disappeared from them. . . . Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and HOW HE BECAME KNOWN TO THEM by the breaking of the loaf.”They had apparently seen him breaking bread many times. I guess he did it in a different way, or something memorable. But what was not memorable to them, or what they did not somehow recognize, was his face. It was by the breaking of the loaf that showed to them he was the resurrected Jesus.
Again, this scripture indicates he “disappeared from them.” Reminds of us when he appeared in the locked room.
Perhaps Nick, your inability to answer those mysteries that you say are not answered by God could be answered by this:
You are misunderstanding luke 24:39.
First, we are told that they “were terrified, and had become frightened.”
This reminds me of another time they unexpectedly saw Jesus:
MATTHEW 14:26
“When they caught sight of him walking on the sea, the disciples were troubled, saying: “It is an apparition!” And they cried out in their fear.”Some Bibles have “ghost” “spirit” “apparition” etc here, at Mat 14:26.
Of course, that is not the word “phantasma” (apparition) used at luke 24:39.Don't get me wrong. he was in human form when they were looking at him in the room, not spirit form.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”Hi david,
So Jesus went out of his way to show that the body he had died in is the same damaged one he died in. Much like Lazarus he walked the earth again in a body of earth.But you would say he was raised in a different body and then swapped it for the damaged one to act a part for the apostles and then back to the new one- based only on the fact that those who knew he had died were not expecting to see him alive again??
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”
(Also appears this way in Latin Vulgate and the German Luther Bible)
The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.”
But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion. On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.“Later, Jesus appeared in another form to two disciples, as they were on their way out of the city.” (Contemporary English Version)
“Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.” (NIV)
See NASB, etc, etc, etc.
Nick, what do you make of Jesus appearing in another form to these other ones?
It fits right in with the other scriptures that you are having trouble with. I imagine you'll have trouble with or dismiss this one as well. Will you?Quote But you would say he was raised in a different body I would say? Or Mark would say? See above post.
Quote (david @ Feb. 15 2008,15:30) MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”
(Also appears this way in Latin Vulgate and the German Luther Bible)
The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.”
But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion. On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.“Later, Jesus appeared in another form to two disciples, as they were on their way out of the city.” (Contemporary English Version)
“Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.” (NIV)
See NASB, etc, etc, etc.
Nick, what do you make of Jesus appearing in another form to these other ones?
It fits right in with the other scriptures that you are having trouble with. I imagine you'll have trouble with or dismiss this one as well. Will you?
Hi David,
I know you are convinced.
It is JW teaching.Looks like the Bible to me Nick.
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”Quote I imagine you'll have trouble with or dismiss this one as well. Will you? So that's a “yes” then, Nick?
If Nick won't touch that scripture, i'm wondering what others make of it. For me, it answers those many questions Nick was unable to answer–the ones he considered myteries not answered by God.
Hi david,
Lk24
13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.14And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
The scriptures give you the answer so you do not need to form one of your own. Their eyes were HOLDEN and not allowed to recognise him until God OPENED THEM.
Quote (david @ Feb. 15 2008,11:40) Quote
Hi David, I am glad that you agree, since this is what God has said, and if what I have given you through the scriptures that I have quoted, are coming from God, should you not also agree to what is being said to you by God through those scriptures.You seem to want to hold on to doctrines that a demonination has taught you rather than to be open minded to the possibility that what you have beeen taught may be in error.
94, you'll notice I use as many scriptures as you do. Scripture does not allow me to believe Jesus is presently a man.
You believe Jesus is a man, right now, in heaven.
But I find this impossible, for as you said “Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.”
If Jesus is a man, then he may not see God, for “no man may see God and yet live.”–Exodus, I think.
And yet, he is at God's right hand. But he can't see him? And that scripture isn't talking about seeing (understanding) the character of God. Please see the context of that scripture.
Hi David:The scripture states that God is invisible and that means that he cannot be seen.
Jesus is at His right hand, but I do not know any scripture which states that he has seen God.
Unless we are talking of the following scripture:
Quote John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Again, invisible means one cannot see him with the eye as you see something in the physical realm. This is talking about seeing him the God of love, mercy, compassion etc. All of those things that make up his character.
Quote John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Quote John 1:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. There is the following scripture:
Quote 1 Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; F13 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. The scripture doesn't say anything about seeing God. But we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life.
But the scripture that leaves no doubt that Jesus is a man is the following scripture because the scripture states that he is a man:
Quote 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; God Bless
Hi David:
Just one more thought: Jesus has a spiritual body and we his church will also have a spiritual body when we go to meet him in what is commonly called the rapture. The life giving spirit dwells within the body of Jesus which is the church.
Quote Phil 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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