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Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 28 2005,23:03) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2005,15:24) The Christian congregation is “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” (1 Peter 2:9) Replacing natural Israel as God’s nation, it becomes a new Israel that is “really ‘Israel.’” (Romans 9:6-8; Matthew 21:43) ROMANS 9:6-8
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.”MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”Since natural Israel was replaced with a spiritual Israel, does it not make sense that Spiritual Israel (who has God's favor) would be the ones making up that kingdom?
David,Be careful, Rom. chapter 11.
Good point kenrch.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 29 2005,17:11) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 28 2005,23:03) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2005,15:24) The Christian congregation is “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” (1 Peter 2:9) Replacing natural Israel as God’s nation, it becomes a new Israel that is “really ‘Israel.’” (Romans 9:6-8; Matthew 21:43) ROMANS 9:6-8
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.”MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”Since natural Israel was replaced with a spiritual Israel, does it not make sense that Spiritual Israel (who has God's favor) would be the ones making up that kingdom?
David,Be careful, Rom. chapter 11.
Good point kenrch.
Thank the Lord!Be careful of what?
Paul wrote, ‘I ask then, Did God reject his people? By no means!’ (Rom. 11:1; NIV.)”
Let's look at the rest of that verse: “For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”What did Paul mean by this?
Paul could not have believed that the Israelites as a nation still had a special place with God, for the apostle expressed “great grief and unceasing pain in [his] heart” over their unresponsiveness to God’s goodness. (Romans 9:2-5)
At Romans 9:6 Paul adds: “However, it is not as though the word of God [to Abraham] had failed. For not all who spring from [natural] Israel are really ‘Israel.’”
Note what Paul is saying: that because the Jews rejected Christ, God no longer considered them to be Israel! The anointed congregation of Jesus Christ’s followers was now the real “Israel,” the instrument through which God would bless all mankind.—1 Peter 2:9; Galatians 3:29; 6:16; Genesis 22:18.God, though, did not reject the Jewish people as individuals, for Paul pointed out: “For I also am an Israelite.” Yes, individuals within the Jewish nation, like Paul, could become part of spiritual Israel if they accepted Christ. Only “a remnant,” a minority, chose to do so.—Romans 11:1, 5.
This harmonizes with the rest of the Bible.
Anyway, we're kind of getting off topic. I was wondering why Nick believes no one goes to heaven. (I know he will say 'because it's not taught in scripture.') So then I'm wondering what exactly he believes with regard to heaven and earth.
Secondly, for everyone else, I'm wondering who believes that men go to heaven and where scripture teaches this.
Hi david,
I am waiting for any evidence that men do go to heaven. You are right though to say that evidence must be found in the revelation given by God in the bible and not the fertile speculative minds of men.
You would always agree with that principle surely?OK, I've asked Nick this question about 5 times. I was so shocked to learn that some don't believe that anyone goes to heaven ever.
I'm wondering what all of you who have been silent on this believe in this regard. I'm wondering if Nick was just one in his thinking or if there are more, or many more?Try here.
I don't believe in going to heaven when we die – I believe that we are dead until Jesus returns to earth, when the dead are raised and judged and God's kingdom is established in Jerusalem.
Interesting. It still strikes me when I hear that everyone doesn't believe the good people go to heaven, as most believe.
God's original plan for mankind started with Adam and Eve. They were put in a beautiful paradise garden. They were to have the animals under their subjection. And they could have had everlasting life, had they proven that they wanted to obey God. But they chose wrong, were expelled from Eden and so the paradise never grew to cover the earth, but faded away, or at the very least was washed away. Several issues were raised which had to be answered. God could have just destroyed the rebells, but what would that have proved? All of spirit creation had seen what happened. A rebellion had begun. Was Satan right in saying they could choose for themselves? Did man need God to rule them? And, are their any faithful humans who truly want to worship God out of a clean heart? Time is showing us the answers. And God is letting these issues be settled for all time, so that distress will not rise up a second time.
Of course, none of this thwarted God's purpose for the earth or man on it. Could Satan or Adam and Eve change God's purpose for the earth? No. Several scriptures point to the time when the meek will inherit the earth and the wicked will be removed. (Mat 5:5; prov 2:21,22, ps 37:9-11)
But while the Bible speaks of a “new earth,” it also speak of “new heavens.” (Is 65:17; 66:22; 2 pet 3:13; Rev 21:1)M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
The heavens often represent rulership. (Dan 4:26)God has chosen to take a select few from mankind, those who have exprerienced the trials and tempations and sufferings of living on earth and to use them along with Jesus to judge and rule. Jehovah is always fair. And how loving it is for us to be judged by ones who have experienced what humans must endure.
The kingdom is described as a heavenly one. It is ruled from heaven.
Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.)The majority of mankind, those judged worthy of life will enjoy life on a paradise earth, as God intended for those who love him. But this special arrangement of the kingdom, with human kings who have been “bought from the earth” (rev 14:3) is only for a limited number, and for a specific purpose. We are told that they are to rule as kings, to act a priests, to judge.
What is True, As for that scripture in Rev that says they will reside as kings “on the earth,” it should be rendered “over the earth.”
CC reads “reign over the earth.” Kx states “reign as kings over the earth.” But NAB and Dy read “reign on the earth.”
Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. THERE RS, KJ, Dy, ETC., ALL RENDER IT “over.”)The following refer to the annointed, Jesus spiritual brothers, heirs with him of the kingdom:
PHILIPPIANS 3:20
“As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens.”1 PETER 1:3,4
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.”
(Doesn't this indicate that some will be partakers of the heavenly calling?)HEBREWS 12:23
The worldwide body of anointed Christians is “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.”JOHN 14:2, 3:
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”
(Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus.)EPHESIANS 1:10
“for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,”ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
(Where is the Father's throne? These ones that are given thrones will judge and rule as kings. It is a heavenly throne.)Anyway, these are just some thoughts. I'm wondering what you will make of them. I really should organize them better.
david.
do men go to heaven yes. Also there is life after death.
http://www.bible.ca/su-extinction-refuted.htmHi David, liljon – I'm busy today, but I promise I'll come back to your posts in the next couple of days.
Thanks
SamDavid,
Scripture interpretation depends very much on context. The reason why so many different denominations exist is because they all approach scripture from a different context. Personally, I trust the original context of scripture moreso than modern reinterpretations. That is why when you read “heavenly calling” and I read “heavenly calling”, we see two different things.
Who is right? Only YHWH knows.
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,05:45) … I was so shocked to learn that some don't believe that anyone goes to heaven ever.
I'm wondering what all of you who have been silent on this believe in this regard. …We have not all been silent about this.
I personally answered you way back in September!!!Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 04 2005,06:50) In answer to “What is the Kingdom mentioned in the Bible?” The Simplicity of the Christian Message
The scriptures shows us where the saints will be!
Our Lord Jesus' magnificent obsession …
Hope the above helps!
Adam Pastor
My Personal SpaceHi David
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) Several scriptures point to the time when the meek will inherit the earth and the wicked will be removed. (Mat 5:5; prov 2:21,22, ps 37:9-11)
But while the Bible speaks of a “new earth,” it also speak of “new heavens.” (Is 65:17; 66:22; 2 pet 3:13; Rev 21:1)M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
The heavens often represent rulership. (Dan 4:26)
Agreed so far. The meek will inherit the earth, and there will be a “new heavens and a new earth” in the sense that a new kingdom and government will have been set up.Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) The kingdom is described as a heavenly one. It is ruled from heaven.
Here's where we differ – rather than saying that the kingdom is heavenly because it is ruled from heaven, I would say that the kingdom is heavenly because it comes from heaven.In fact, we can be sure that the kingdom will be ruled from earth:
“Jesus shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:32-33)
We know that the throne of David was in Jerusalem – which is quite clearly on earth. Also Zechariah 14:
“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” (Zech 14:16)
If the citizens of God's Kingdom will go to Jerusalem to worship the king – Jesus – then presumably Jesus is going to be there!
I can flesh this out a bit more if you like.
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) The following refer to the annointed, Jesus spiritual brothers, heirs with him of the kingdom: PHILIPPIANS 3:20
“As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens.”
Finish the quote:“from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” (Phil 3:20-21)
Paul was waiting for Jesus to come from heaven – not waiting to go to heaven. Moreover, he was waiting for the resurrection of his physical body on earth, when Jesus returns – not hoping that his soul would go to heaven when he died.
Paul is simply contrasting Christians with those who set their mind on “earthly things” (v19) – because our lives are focussed on God and Jesus, and both God and Jesus are in heaven, thus our citizenship is figuratively in heaven.
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) 1 PETER 1:3,4
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”
Sure it's reserved in heaven, but this doesn't mean that we have to go to heaven to get it – rather, Jesus is going to bring our reward with him when he returns to earth.For the Son of man shall come [to earth] in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matt 16:27)
Besides, if our reward is to be in the kingdom, and the kingdom is on earth – then surely our reward is going to be in the kingdom on earth!
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.”
(Doesn't this indicate that some will be partakers of the heavenly calling?)
From heaven – we don't literally have to be in heaven. In fact, we figuratively sit in “heavenly places” right now (Eph 2:6).Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) HEBREWS 12:23
The worldwide body of anointed Christians is “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.”
That's where Jesus is now – but he's going to bring our reward with him when he comes.Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) JOHN 14:2, 3:
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”
(Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus.)
Why assume that the Father's house is in heaven? In fact, in scripture the house of God is always on earth (eg John 2:16).Also, we've seen that Jesus is going to sit on David's throne in Jerusalem – if we're always going to be with Jesus, then we'd better be on earth!
Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) EPHESIANS 1:10
“for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,”
I'm not exactly sure what this means, but there's certainly nothing here that says that we'll go to heaven when we die.Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
Heirs of what? Of the promises to Abraham – land on ea
rth! (Gal 3:29, Gen 13:14-17 etc)Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) 1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”
It's quite possible to have an incorruptible, immortal body on earth – Jesus did after he was raised.Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,20:09) REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
(Where is the Father's throne? These ones that are given thrones will judge and rule as kings. It is a heavenly throne.)
I'm not sure if this is literal or figurative – in any case this verse doesn't say Jesus' throne is in heaven, and we know from Luke 1 and many other places that Jesus' throne will literally be on earth.Interested in your thoughts.
God bless
Sam
Quote (liljon @ Jan. 31 2006,20:36) do men go to heaven yes. Also there is life after death.
http://www.bible.ca/su-extinction-refuted.htm
Hi liljonYou might have waited until I had presented some of these passages before linked to a website that refuted them, but never mind
Quote Abused Text #1 Jn 3:13 says, “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.”
False argument stated: “No man, up to Christ’s time, had ascended into heaven. this proves, so the false argument goes, that the dead are extinct!”
False argument refuted:
1. Yet Elijah had already ascended into heaven: 2 Ki 2:1 “the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven” Obviously Neo-Sadducees have no idea what Jesus was actually saying!
2. Neo-Sadducees would do well to understand that there is a “spirit world” that includes: God (Eph 1:20), Good angels: (Eph 3:10), Devil and demons (Eph 6:12), Departed spirits of men (Eph 2:6).
3. What Jesus was saying is that no one ascended into the place in heaven that is in the direct presence of God. Jesus was the very first man to do this at his ascension. Up to the cross, no man who died was permitted into the presence of God, because sin had not actually been atoned for. But the dead were still in the “heavenly realm”, just not in God’s presence!
1. Actually, we're told that Elijah is yet to “receive what was promised”. How could he be in heaven?Moreover, after he “ascended into heaven”, Elijah sent a letter to King Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:9-12). Elijah went into the sky – heaven – and came down again.
2. You might want to read those verses…
3. Where is the evidence for any of this? And that Elijah went to heaven even contradicts the whole idea that they're trying to prove – I'll assume you know what that is…
But FWIW, John 3:13 isn't a verse I'd use to prove that people don't go to heaven when they die, there are plenty better.
Quote Abused Text #4 Ps 6:5
“For there is no mention [Hebrew: “zeker”] of Thee in death; In Sheol who will give Thee thanks?”False argument stated: “This verse plainly states that we cannot remember or even mention God’s name or even thank God after we die because we are unconscious and no longer exist.”
False argument refuted:
1. David is speaking merely from a human “under the son” point of view. Although he sheds tears now, his body will shed no tears in the grave. Sheol here means grave. This is poetry, not some detailed theological statement of the state of the dead.
2. Ps 30:9 contains the same idea: “What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise Thee? Will it declare Thy faithfulness?” David is speaking of a live body vs. a dead body.
3. Notice that EVEN GOD forgets the dead! Ps. 88:3-6 “Forsaken among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom Thou dost remember no more, And they are cut off from Thy hand.” Obviously then, this verse is speaking about God blessing a man while in the flesh. To be remembered of God is to be blessed of God. Hades is a place of waiting, not a place of activity.
4. This verse says the same thing as: Ps 6:5, Job 17:11-16, Ps 30:9; Ps. 88:3-6,10-14; Psalm 115:17; Isa 38:10-11;17-19. All these verses are looking at death from a human point of view of the contrast between a living body and a dead body.
5. Eccl 9:5 says “for their memory [Hebrew: “zeker”] is forgotten” see Eccl 9:5 that documents the use of the word “zeder”. The meaning is that the dead are forgotten by the living!(#2 was too long to quote, #3 isn't a verse I'd use either)
What they're painting a picture of is a conscious place of waiting where you can't even think. It's just silly. David isn't speaking merely from a human “under the sun” view – he's speaking from a true point of view.
The rest of verses quoted are much the same as #4. Many, many verses that cleary aren't written figuratively have to be taken that way – it's just not reasonable.
This is in fact especially ironic, since the main proof text for the idea of conscious death is the parable in Luke 16. Never mind.
God bless
SamMy thoughts sammo? Here are my first thoughts. They are somewhat unorganized and long. I am sorry for this.
Let’s start with your words:
“Why assume that the Father's house is in heaven? In fact, in scripture the house of God is always on earth (eg John 2:16).”
1 KINGS 8:27
““But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!”
(While the temple may have been called his house, it was just a shadow of heavenly things, a copy of reality, a typical representation.)HEBREWS 8:5
“but which [men] are rendering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to make the tent in completion, was given the divine command: For says he: “See that you make all things after [their] pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.”” (Compare Ex 25:40.)HEBREWS 9:11-12
“However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us].”HEBREWS 9:24
“For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”HEBREWS 10:1
“For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect.”COLOSSIANS 2:16-17
“Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”The shadow, or dark image, that an object casts on a surface is not substantial, not the real thing. Yet it can give an idea of the general shape or design of the reality that casts it. In this connection Paul explained that the Law, including its festivals, tabernacle, and sacrifices, AND TEMPLE had a shadow that represented greater things to come. He wrote: “The reality belongs to the Christ.”—Col 2:16, 17; Heb 8:5; 9:23-28; 10:1.
The Bible contains PROPHETIC PATTERNS, SHADOWS OF THINGS TO COME.
In addition to direct statements issued through his prophets, Jehovah used other forms of prophecy.
PROPHETIC DRAMAS, for example, were used by God, details from the lives of individuals and nations being recorded as a pattern of future events in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose.
An easy example would be that the Flood of Noah’s day and the conditions precedent to it were prophetic of conditions at the time of Christ’s future presence and of the result to those rejecting God’s way.—Mt 24:36-39; compare 1Co 10:1-11.
But what concerns us is when Paul spoke of “A SYMBOLIC DRAMA” involving Abraham’s two sons by Sarah and the slave girl Hagar.GALATIANS 4:21-31
“Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. These things stand as A SYMBOLIC DRAMA; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Sínai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Hágar. Now this Hágar means Sínai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But THE JERUSALEM ABOVE is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.” Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born in the manner of flesh began persecuting the one born in the manner of spirit, so also now. Nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl and her son, for by no means shall the son of the servant girl be an heir with the son of the free woman.” Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman.”He shows that the two women “mean” two covenant relationships. They did not personally typify, or picture, such covenants. But in the prophetic drama those women corresponded to symbolic women who produced children under those covenants. Thus Hagar corresponded to earthly Jerusalem, which failed to accept the Deliverer to whom the Law covenant pointed and clung to that Law even after God had terminated it; earthly Jerusalem and its children were thus in slavery to the Law. On the other hand, Sarah, the free woman, corresponded to “THE JERUSALEM ABOVE,” God’s heavenly wifelike organization, which produces sons in accord with what was foretold in the Abrahamic covenant. (Ga 4:21-31; compare Joh 8:31-36.)
PLACES were used prophetically, the city of Jerusalem on Mount Zion at times being used to represent a heavenly organization that is the “mother” of spirit-anointed Christians. (Ga 4:26) “New Jerusalem” symbolized Christ’s heavenly “bride,” made up of members of the glorified Christian congregation. (Re 21:2, 9-14; compare Eph 5:23-27, 32, 33; Re 14:1-4.)
Other places obviously used with prophetic significance are Sodom, Egypt, Megiddo, Babylon, and the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna.—Re 11:8; 16:16; 18:2; Mt 23:33.JERUSALEM’S SIGNIFICANCE. After the ark of the covenant, associated with God’s presence, was transferred there, and even more so when the temple sanctuary, or house of God, was constructed there, Jerusalem became Jehovah’s figurative ‘residence,’ his “resting-place.” (Ps 78:68, 69; 132:13, 14; 135:21; compare 2Sa 7:1-7, 12, 13.) Because the kings of the Davidic line were God’s anointed, sitting upon “Jehovah’s throne” (1Ch 29:23; Ps 122:3-5), Jerusalem itself was also called “the throne of Jehovah”; and those tribes or nations turning to it in recognition of God’s sovereignty were, in effect, being congregated to the name of Jehovah. (Jer 3:17; Ps 122:1-4; Isa 27:13) Those hostile to or fighting against Jerusalem were, in actuality, opposing the expression of God’s sovereignty.
Since Jehovah’s praise and his will are effected primarily by his intelligent creatures, it was not the buildings forming the city that determined his continued use of the city but the people in it, rulers and ruled, priests and people. (Ps 102:18-22; Isa 26:1, 2) While these were faithful, honoring Jehovah’s name by their words and life course, he blessed and defended Jerusalem. (Ps 125:1, 2; Isa 31:4, 5) Jehovah’s disfavor soon came upon the people and their kings because of the apostate course the majority followed. For this reason JEHOVAH DECLARED HIS PURPOSE TO REJECT THE CITY that had borne his name. (2Ki 21:12-15; 23:27) He would remove “support and stay” from the city, resulting in its becoming filled with tyranny, with juvenile delinquency, with disrespect for men in honorable positions; Jerusalem would suffer abasement and severe humiliation. (Isa 3:1-8, 16-26) Even though Jehovah God restored the city 70 years after permitting its destruction by Babylon, making it again beautiful as the joyful center of true worship in the earth (Isa 52:1-9; 65:17-19), the people and their leaders reverted to their apostate course once more.
Jehovah preserved the city until the sending of his Son to earth. It had to be there for the Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled. (Isa 28:1
6; 52:7; Zec 9:9) Israel’s apostate course was climaxed in the impalement of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. (Compare Mt 21:33-41.) Taking place as it did at Jerusalem, instigated by the nation’s leaders with popular support, this made certain God’s complete and irreversible rejection of the city as representing him and bearing his name. (Compare Mt 16:21; Lu 13:33-35.) Neither Jesus nor his apostles foretold any restoration by God of earthly Jerusalem and its temple to come after the city’s divinely decreed destruction, which occurred in 70 C.E.
JERUSALEM ABOVE
Yet the name Jerusalem continued to be used as symbolic of something greater than the earthly city. The apostle Paul, by divine inspiration, revealed that there is a “Jerusalem above,” which he speaks of as the “mother” of anointed Christians. (Ga 4:25, 26) This places the “Jerusalem above” in the position of a wife to Jehovah God the great Father and Life-Giver. When earthly Jerusalem was used as the chief city of God’s chosen nation, it, too, was spoken of as a woman, married to God, being tied to him by holy bonds in a covenant relationship. (Isa 51:17, 21, 22; 54:1, 5; 60:1, 14) It thus stood for, or was representative of, the entire congregation of God’s human servants. “Jerusalem above” must therefore represent the entire congregation of Jehovah’s loyal spirit servants.
New Jerusalem. In the inspired Revelation, the apostle John records information concerning the “new Jerusalem.” (Re 3:12) In vision John sees this “holy city” as “coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” This is in relation to the vision he sees of “a new heaven and a new earth.” This “bride” was said to be “the Lamb’s wife.” (Re 21:1-3, 9-27) Other apostolic writings apply the same figure to the Christian congregation of anointed ones. (2Co 11:2; Eph 5:21-32) In Revelation chapter 14 “the Lamb” Christ Jesus is depicted as standing on Mount Zion, a name also associated with Jerusalem (compare 1Pe 2:6), and with him are 144,000 having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.—Re 14:1-5NEW JERUSALEM
An expression that occurs two times, and only in the highly symbolic book of Revelation. (Re 3:12; 21:2) Near the end of that series of visions, and after seeing Babylon the Great destroyed, the apostle John says: “I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”—Re 21:2.
The Bride of the Lamb. In the light of other scriptures, the identity of New Jerusalem is made certain. She is “as a bride.” Farther along, John writes: “One of the seven angels . . . spoke with me and said: ‘Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.’ So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear.”—Re 21:9-11.
New Jerusalem is the bride of whom? The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who shed his blood sacrificially for mankind. (Joh 1:29; Re 5:6, 12; 7:14; 12:11; 21:14) What is her identity? She is composed of the members of the glorified Christian congregation. The congregation on earth was likened to “a chaste virgin” to be presented to the Christ. (2Co 11:2) Again, the apostle Paul likens the Christian congregation to a wife, with Christ as her Husband and Head.—Eph 5:23-25, 32.
Furthermore, Christ himself addresses the congregation at Revelation 3:12, promising the faithful conqueror that he would have written upon him “the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.” A wife takes her husband’s name. Therefore those seen standing with the Lamb upon Mount Zion, numbering 144,000, having the Lamb’s name and that of his Father written in their foreheads, are evidently the same group, the bride.—Re 14:1.
WHY COULD “NEW JERUSALEM” NOT BE A CITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST?
New Jerusalem is heavenly, not earthly, for it comes down “out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:10) So this city is not one erected by men and consisting of literal streets and buildings constructed in the Middle East on the site of the ancient city of Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 C.E. The members of the bride class when on earth are told that their “citizenship exists in the heavens” and that their hope is to receive “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance.” “It is reserved in the heavens for you,” says the apostle Peter.—Php 3:20; 1Pe 1:4.
In 537 B.C.E., Jehovah created “new heavens and a new earth” when the Jewish remnant was restored to Jerusalem from Babylonian exile. (Isa 65:17) Evidently the governorship of Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) aided by High Priest Joshua, at the city of Jerusalem, constituted the “new heavens” then. (Hag 1:1, 14) The New Jerusalem, together with Christ on his throne in this symbolic city, constitutes the “new heavens” that rule over the “new earth,” which is human society on earth.
That the New Jerusalem is indeed a heavenly city is further supported by the vision of her that John beheld. Only a symbolic city could have the dimensions and splendor of New Jerusalem. Its base was foursquare, about 555 km (345 mi) on each side, or about 2,220 km (1,379 mi) completely around, that is, 12,000 furlongs. Being a cube, the city was also as high as it was long and wide. No man-made city could ever reach that far into “outer space.” Round about was a wall 144 cubits (64 m; 210 ft) high. The wall, itself constructed of jasper, in turn rested on 12 foundation stones, precious stones of great beauty—jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, hyacinth, and amethyst. On these 12 foundation stones were engraved the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. The city proper within these beautiful walls was no less glorious, for it was described as “pure gold like clear glass,” having a broad way of “pure gold, as transparent glass.”—Re 21:12-21.
A Pure, Beneficial Rule. Entrance into the New Jerusalem through its magnificent walls was by means of 12 gates, three on a side, each made of a huge pearl. Although these gates were never closed, “anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will.” A holy and sacred city indeed, yet there was no visible temple of worship, for “Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is.” And there was “no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb.” Its rulership over the nations will be beneficial to them, for “the nations will walk by means of its light.”—Re 21:22-27.david.
IT CAME about that as [Elijah and Elisha] were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and Elijah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.”—2 Kings 2:11.
What is meant by the word “heavens” in this case? The term sometimes applies to the spiritual dwelling place of God and his angelic sons. (Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “Heavens” may also denote the physical universe. (Deuteronomy 4:19) And the Bible uses this term to refer to earth’s immediate atmosphere, where birds fly and winds blow.—Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26.
To which of these heavens did the prophet Elijah ascend? Evidently, he was transferred through earth’s atmosphere and placed on a different part of the globe. Elijah was still on earth years later, for he wrote a letter to King Jehoram of Judah. (2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15) That Elijah did not ascend to the spiritual abode of Jehovah God was later confirmed by Jesus Christ, who declared: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man,” that is, Jesus himself. (John 3:13) The way to heavenly life was first opened up to imperfect humans after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.—John 14:2, 3; Hebrews 9:24; 10:19, 20.
Well David, have you ever heard of the famous Walt Disney animated charactors movie called all dogs go to heaven?
Well, they may go up to the first heaven where the birds and the bees fly, and they have even sent a monkey and men to the second heaven where our planet the moon is at, but they all must come back down, but they never went to the third Heaven of YHWH'S Throne.
Wow I think I actually agree with David on something.
:-0
A couple of other passages that I don't think have been mentioned yet:
PHILIPPIANS 1 (NASB)
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.When Paul departed (i.e. died) he expected to be with Christ.
REVELATION 4 (NASB)
4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.The context of this verse is pre-tribulation. I think these elders are men and not angels (as some suggest) because a distinction is drawn between the two in Rev 5:11:
REVELATION 5 (NASB)
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousandsThe “many angels” are around the throne AND “the elders”, so obviously these two entities are discrete, otherwise why mention both? They also have crowns (Ch 4 v5).
I don't think its an entirely clear cut issue but I think the evidence favours David's assertion.
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