Do men ever go to heaven?

[david]

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1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

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Of course, God is not a man and is invisible. No one has seen him nor will ever see him as the word “invisible” means exactly that.

–94

Hi 94. YOu quoted the above scripture, yet you also state that no one has seen “nor will ever see” God.

We, as flesh, cannot see God, true. I would compare it to looking at the sun from about a foot away. Instant death. He's just such a powerful spirit.
But look at the scripture. Some would “be like him” and when that is the case, when these ones are given spirit bodies, they “shall see him as he is.”
Of course, we cannot, for we are human and to humans, to us, he is invisible. But if he were to make himself visible to a human, well, “no MAN may see [God] and yet live.” (ex 33:20)

Jesus is not a “man” in heaven. Jesus can see God. Jesus is at God's right hand.
I'm not sure what your idea of “man” is, 94, but to me, man is “flesh.” When it says Jesus became flesh, I take that to mean he became human. Flesh is physical. You can see it. We can't see Jesus. He is not a man. He was while on earth.

God “raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,” (eph 1:20)
Spirits inhabit heaven. Yes, spirits can materialize bodies or even bodies with holes in their wrists. But this does not make them human.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
If Jesus was a spirit that materialised with holes in his wrists then that would make him a lying spirit and he is not that but he is truth. In fact at that time he said he was flesh and bones. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom as 1 Cor 15 tells us. So as he had not yet ascended to God and been given his new spiritual body seen in Dan 7 he was yet in his restored natural body that was not allowed to decay.

But I would diasagree with 94 that men will not see God.
The sons of God, even those given mercy, will see God.

Mt 5
8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[942767]

Quote (david @ Feb. 14 2008,08:11)

Quote 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Quote Of course, God is not a man and is invisible.  No one has seen him nor will ever see him as the word “invisible” means exactly that. –94 Hi 94.  YOu quoted the above scripture, yet you also state that no one has seen “nor will ever see” God. We, as flesh, cannot see God, true.  I would compare it to looking at the sun from about a foot away.  Instant death.  He's just such a powerful spirit. But look at the scripture.  Some would “be like him” and when that is the case, when these ones are given spirit bodies, they “shall see him as he is.” Of course, we cannot, for we are human and to humans, to us, he is invisible.  But if he were to make himself visible to a human, well, “no MAN may see [God] and yet live.” (ex 33:20) Jesus is not a “man” in heaven.  Jesus can see God.  Jesus is at God's right hand.   I'm not sure what your idea of “man” is, 94, but to me, man is “flesh.”  When it says Jesus became flesh, I take that to mean he became human.  Flesh is physical.  You can see it.  We can't see Jesus.  He is not a man.  He was while on earth. God “raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,” (eph 1:20)   Spirits inhabit heaven.  Yes, spirits can materialize bodies or even bodies with holes in their wrists.  But this does not make them human.

Hi David:

My understanding is that when the scripture talks about seeing God as He is, it is talking about his character.  When we have seen Jesus through the life that he lived here on earth, we have seen God's character through the works that Jesus did.  He was obeying God's Word.  He did not teach nor obey his own thoughts.

God is a Spirit and is invisible. One cannot see a spirit, but we can look around at God's creation see Him through the works that He has done and does.  He is a wonderful God.

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. John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

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1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

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Hebrews 1   1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

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Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:   3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

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Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I hope this helps David to let you know my understanding of this.

God Bless

[942767]

Hi David:

One more thought that has come to mind and that is God made man in His own image.  The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam, who is Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.  It is this spirit that gives life to the soul.  The last Adam, is given a spiritual body.  He is still a man, but is no longer mortal.  Nevertheless, he is a man whose spirit has been formed through obedience to God's Word.

God Bless

[david]

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Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.

Agreed.

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 14 2008,11:22)

Hi David: One more thought that has come to mind and that is God made man in His own image.  The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam, who is Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.  It is this spirit that gives life to the soul.  The last Adam, is given a spiritual body.  He is still a man, but is no longer mortal.  Nevertheless, he is a man whose spirit has been formed through obedience to God's Word. God Bless

Hi 94,
So his spirit that was formed by obedience left him at death?

Mt 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You said
“I do not believe Jesus becomes human again or will be walking around on the earth.”

But scripture says

Acts 1
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[942767]

Quote (david @ Feb. 14 2008,11:32)

Quote Jesus, was made a life giving spirit. Agreed.

Hi David, I am glad that you agree, since this is what God has said, and if what I have given you through the scriptures that I have quoted, are coming from God, should you not also agree to what is being said to you by God through those scriptures.  

You seem to want to hold on to doctrines that a demonination has taught you rather than to be open minded to the possibility that what you have beeen taught may be in error. If the Word of God states differently than what you have been taught, is it not better to be corrected so that you can teach the truth rather than to continue to teach something in error?

It is the Word of God that we should be stiving to learn and obey rather that the doctrines of man.  This is what is being said by the Apostle Paul in 1 Co. 3.  There should be no denominations.  If we are Christians, then it is the Word of God that we are striving to obey, and each of us is responsible to God for what we teach and obey.

God Bless

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,11:45)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 14 2008,11:22) Hi David: One more thought that has come to mind and that is God made man in His own image.  The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam, who is Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.  It is this spirit that gives life to the soul.  The last Adam, is given a spiritual body.  He is still a man, but is no longer mortal.  Nevertheless, he is a man whose spirit has been formed through obedience to God's Word. God Bless Hi 94, So his spirit that was formed by obedience left him at death? Mt 27 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Hi Nick:

When Jesus died, he said:

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Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

He was dead, but through the spirit that he yielded up to God which is the life that he lived in the body, God said that he was not guilty of sin, and raised him from the dead.

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Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;   1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Scripture says that when a man dies his spirit returns to God.
Ecc 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The fact that he was raised does not require this scripture to be void does it?

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
If it is true for Christ that his spirit did not return to God is that also true for those who follow him?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,13:07)

Hi 94, If it is true for Christ that his spirit did not return to God is that also true for those who follow him?

Hi Nick:

You say: “If it is ture for Christ that his spirit did not return to God…”

My understanding was that his spirit went to God when he died, and it also true for us when we die.  If we die in Christ, our soul is asleep but our spirit is with God.  Our spirit should be the works of obedience to God's Word.  Only those works will survive the fire, the Word of God is eternal, every thing else will be burned up.

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3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.   3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.   3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.   3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;   3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.   3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.   3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
You say
“Our spirit should be the works of obedience to God's Word. “

Where does scripture speak of man's spirit in this way?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,13:47)

Hi 94, You say “Our spirit should be the works of obedience to God's Word. “ Where does scripture speak of man's spirit in this way?

Hi Nick:

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Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So the words of Jesus are spirit and life to us.
I agree and we must feed hungrily on this bread.
But what has that to do with our spirit BEING works?

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Jas 2
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

faith produces works.
just as spirit gives life.
But spirit is not works.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,14:07)

Hi 94, So the words of Jesus are spirit and life to us. I agree and we must feed hungrily on this bread. But what has that to do with our spirit BEING works?

Hi Nick:

Why are you feeding on God's Word, is it just to obtain knowledge or to put what you learn into practice?

If you are preaching the Word of God, and teaching others to obey the commandments that came from God through Jesus, and you are not obeying those commandments yourself, is that not hypocrisy?

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7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot * bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 7:24 Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Of Jesus and his disciples the scripture states:

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5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
We do know that the spirit given men from God gives us life.
We know it is only lent to us and returns to God.
So why do you say it is our works?

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
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5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Indeed Christ was kept sinless and judged by God to be a fit vessel for infilling with His Holy Spirit at the Jordan and after he was raised to heaven that Spirit was poured into his body on earth to give eternal life to his brothers and sisters and for them to be enabled to continue His work.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
You say
“If you are preaching the Word of God, and teaching others to obey the commandments that came from God through Jesus, and you are not obeying those commandments yourself, is that not hypocrisy?”

We must produce good fruit from the Spirit of God given to us.

gal5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

What has the fruit of the Spirit of God got to do with the human spirit we have that returns to God?

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