- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Scripture tells us Christ will reign on earth from the throne of David. Where does scripture tell us this, specifically? The scripture you quoted certainly doesn't say that.
Quote Presumption leads to false teaching. Hi david,
Psalm 132:11
The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Isaiah 9:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.Is 16
5And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.Luke 1
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God's heavenly kingdom, now on earth as well.
There will not be men ruling from heaven,
unless you can show me scriptural proof?Hi David,
The throne of David was on earth and will be still on earth.
God will reign through Christ from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 24:23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isaiah 66:20
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.If it is simply to rule from jerusalem, then phrases like “heavenly jersualem” or “jersualem above” or “new jerusalem” are meaningless.
Hi david,
He will rule on earth from earthly Jerusalem during the 1000 year reign. Then earth and the sky will pass away and the New Jerusalem will come down onto the renewed earth where there is no sea, and God and His son will dwell among heavenly men.[Rev 20-21]Hi David,
The rebellion at the end of the Millenium shows Christ ruling on earth.
“Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”
Quote will come down onto the renewed earth where there is no sea So God will do away with the evil “sea.”?
The Bible says “the wicked are like the sea.”
I really believe the highly symbolic book of revelation meant the sea of mankind.
Quote He will rule on earth from earthly Jerusalem during the 1000 year reign.
God will rule the earth from a place that his son foretold would be destroyed?
While jerusalem has represented his rulership and the seat of his throne, it is now heavenly jersualem we look to, jerusalem above, the “new” jerusalem, Nick.Quote Then earth and the sky will pass away
end those 5 or 6 scripures that speak of the earth lasting forever? “sooner” would earth and heaven pass away “then”….Or are you thinking of that scripture that says the elements being intensly hot, will melt…
So if earth will pass away what will man's final destiny be?
PSALM 37:29
“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.”Hi david,
You are not allowed to add your own allegorical interpretations.
Is mankind ever elsewhere in scripture called the sea?
Was there a sea on earth before the flood?Hi david,
The Lord God in His Christ returns to earth to rule and stands on the Mount of Olives.Zech 14
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
The earth does not pass away till after the millenium. [Rev20]
Quote Was there a sea on earth before the flood? Yes, albeit a shallower one. gen 1:9,10. Even if it wasn't in genesis, it is simply a statement of fact. see prov 8:29
Quote You are not allowed to add your own allegorical interpretations.
That is what you are doing. The book of revelation is a highly symbolic book. I know you know this.
There are at least a couple of scriptures that compare the wicked to the sea.Masses alienated from God.
Isaiah likened the wicked people of earth, the masses alienated from God, to “the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” (Isa 57:20)At Revelation 17:1, 15 the “waters” on which Babylon the Great “sits” are said to mean “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”
Isaiah further prophesied to God’s “woman” Zion: “Because to you the wealthiness of the sea will direct itself; the very resources of the nations will come to you.” (Isa 59:20; 60:1, 5)
This seems to mean the turning of many persons from among the multitudes of earth toward God’s symbolic “woman.”Daniel described four “beasts” that came up “out of the sea” and revealed these to be symbolic of political kings or kingdoms. (Da 7:2, 3, 17, 23)
Similarly, John spoke of a “wild beast ascending out of the sea,” that is, out of that vast portion of mankind that is estranged from God; and his mention, in symbolic language, of diadems and a throne again links the idea of a political organization with this beast out of “the sea.” (Re 13:1, 2)
And yes, Nick, he also saw in vision the time when there would be “a new heaven and a new earth” and when “the sea,” that is, the turbulent masses of people alienated from God, would be no more.—Re 21:1.
***
but, about what you say:
that the earth will pass away.1 JOHN 2:17
“Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.”the WORLD, the sea of mankind, alienated from God, will indeed pass away. Contrast this with those who do the will of God–and remain forever.
But the world is not the earth.
THE EARTH WAS CREATED BY GOD TO LAST FOREVER, TO BE INHABITED FOREVER:
PSALM 104:5
“He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”ECCLESIASTES 1:4
“A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.”PSALM 78:69
“And he began to build his sanctuary just like the heights, Like the earth that he has founded to time indefinite.”PSALM 119:90
“Your faithfulness is for generation after generation. You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.”PSALM 96:10
“Say among the nations: “Jehovah himself has become king. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter. He will plead the cause of the peoples in uprightness.””tHESE scriptures are clear. What is not clear is the scripture you take to interpret your idea that the earth will pass away. It is clearly not speaking of the literal earth. For that would be a biblical contradicion.
Nick,
Quote You are not allowed to add your own allegorical interpretations. The prophecy was not fulfilled upon the Jerusalem of Zechariah’s day. That city was destroyed by the armies of Rome in 70 C.E.
Nick, you keep thinking of physical things.
The “heavenly Jerusalem” will be exalted. It will no longer be like an earthly Jerusalem captured by the attacking nations and pillaged by them and having its population reduced by half of its citizens being taken into exile. (Zechariah 14:1, 2)
The preceeding verse, the one you forgot to quote says:
“And I [Jehovah] shall certainly gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will actually be captured and the houses be pillaged, and the women themselves will be raped. And half of the city must go forth into the exile; but as for the remaining ones of the people, they will not be cut off from the city.”
And this is the Jerusalem you look to?
Nick, the jerusalem that Jesus wept over, the jersusalem that was the stoner of prophets and the jerusalem that saw the death of the son of God, the worst crime ever commited…..and yes, the Jersualem that God allowed to be purged….
this is not the “heavenly jerusalem” or the “NEW” jersualem nick. That jersualem is from “above” hence the phrase “jersualem above.”
Quote The earth does not pass away till after the millenium. [Rev20] REVELATION 21:1
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.”Clearly your understanding must be wrong. If you think the literal earth is to pass away (contradicting those many other scriptures) than I suppose you think there will be a literal “new earth” to replace it, a planet somewhere else called “earth.”
2 PETER 3:13
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”heavens represent governement. There is a new government–the kingdom, basically. The word “earth” can be used to represent people, as in when there was the deluge and it says the “earth” was destroyed, but really it was the “people”. The new earth is the righteous new society of people that live in accord with God's will and are ruled by the new heavens, the kingdom government.
Hi David,
You say
“That is what you are doing. The book of revelation is a highly symbolic book. I know you know this.
There are at least a couple of scriptures that compare the wicked to the sea.Masses alienated from God.
Isaiah likened the wicked people of earth, the masses alienated from God, to “the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” (Isa 57:20)Is 57
20But the wicked ARE LIKE the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. “And you say
“At Revelation 17:1, 15 the “waters” on which Babylon the Great “sits” are said to mean “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” “
Rev 17
“15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. “So in these verses scripture teall you the meaning of the allegory.
But you take it on your self to make up such explanations?
You have stepped off the safe ground of scripture to make these wild speculations.
Hi david,
You say
“heavens represent governement. There is a new government–the kingdom, basically. The word “earth” can be used to represent people, as in when there was the deluge and it says the “earth” was destroyed, but really it was the “people”. The new earth is the righteous new society of people that live in accord with God's will and are ruled by the new heavens, the kingdom government.”So can mean
becomes
does mean
for the jws?Quote But you take it on your self to make up such explanations? You have stepped off the safe ground of scripture to make these wild speculations.
Revelation is a highly symbolic book, Nicolaus. We can have the Bible interpret itself or we can insert our own thoughts. I am not making up an explanation. The wicked are compared to the sea in the Bible. We do know that the wicked will be done away with. It's no stretch to say that this is what this scripture is saying.
You argue that the literal sea will be done away with. I find that makes as much sense as saying the trees will be done away with. What did the sea ever do to God? It is his creation. Scripture plainly says the earth will reside forever and it also says that God created the seas (and they are a part of the earth.)
I think I know what the problem is.
Rev 1:1 says that the book was written in signs so that “his slaves” might know what would shortly take place, (not the world in general.)Nick, maybe we should start simply: Why do you think the Bible is wrong when it repeatedly states that God's creation–the earth will exist forever?
(see last post for scriptures)david
Quote Hi david,
Where does scripture say that Christ rules in the new Jerusalem from heaven?He certainly doesn't rule it from earthly jersualem. Perhaps you noticed that this “new” jerusalem is also called “heavenly jersualem” and “jersualem above.”
Perhaps you've noticed that Jesus is a mighty SPIRIT being now. Perhaps you remember that he resides with his father and we are told in no uncertain terms that the heavens are his place of residence. Perhaps you remember that no literal temple can hold him.
YOu didn't answer my question nick. If you take it to be the literal sea, then you must believe there is going to be another literal “new earth” some new planet, yes?
Hi David,
Will Christ not rule from the throne of David?
The renewed earth will have no sea.
That seems simple enough.Hi david,
You say
“You argue that the literal sea will be done away with. I find that makes as much sense as saying the trees will be done away with. What did the sea ever do to God? It is his creation. Scripture plainly says the earth will reside forever and it also says that God created the seas (and they are a part of the earth.)”Logic alone should not be applied to scripture to undestand spiritual things as it is earthly and not spiritual.
If God says there will be no sea why should you consider yourself equipped to argue with Him?
Our earthly human bodies will be done away with too.Hi david,
Ps 122
4Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.5For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
6Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Seems that the seat of David is in earthly Jerusalem.
Quote The renewed earth will have no sea.
That seems simple enough.So you are literal with the sea but not with the “new” earth. It says the former earth is gone and there is a new earth. Yet, you interpret this to mean a “renewed” earth. Yet, the literal sea is no more. You are picking and choosing what is and what isn't literal. And you are doing it badly.
Revelation is a symbolic book.
Either:
1. The literal sea will be done away with.
2. The “sea” here represents the “wicked” as sometimes in scripture.Now, can you find any scriptures to support your #1. Because I can to support #2.
Quote If God says there will be no sea why should you consider yourself equipped to argue with Him?
Nick, YOUR same logic here could be applied to every verse in Revelation. Man, that would be a strange world. I want you to re-read Rev 1:1 for me. What does it say? Maybe verse 2 also, can't remember.If God created seas in the beginning, then there will be seas and your understanding is false, because God's will for the earth is sure to happen.
Not only was Jerusalem the center of true worship but the city also was the seat of government. The psalmist continues: “For there the thrones for judgment have been sitting, thrones for the house of David.” (Ps. 122:5) As the capital, Jerusalem was the place for final judgments.
How fitting therefore, for the reality, heavenly jersualem to be named such. We can understand what heavenly jerusalem is because we understood what jerusalem was, and how God viewed it, before it degenerated into badness.Jesus had called Jerusalem “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Mt 23:37; compare vss 34-36.) Though many of her citizens showed faith in God’s Son, the city as a whole continued to follow the pattern of the past. For this, ‘her house was abandoned to her.’ (Mt 23:38) In 66 C.E. a Jewish revolt brought Roman forces under Cestius Gallus to the city, surrounding it and making a thrust right up to the temple walls. Suddenly Cestius Gallus withdrew for no apparent reason. This allowed Christians to put into action Jesus’ instructions: “Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of [Jerusalem] withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her.” (Lu 21:20-22) Eusebius, in his Ecclesiastical History (III, V, 3), states that the Christians fled from Jerusalem and the whole land of Judea to a city of Perea that was called Pella.
Jerusalem remained virtually desolate until about 130 C.E., when Emperor Hadrian ordered the building of a new city, named Aelia Capitolina. This provoked a Jewish revolt by Bar Kokhba (132-135 C.E.), which succeeded for a time but was then crushed. Jews were not allowed in the Roman-built city for nearly two centuries. In the fourth century, Constantine the Great’s mother Helena visited Jerusalem and began the identification of the many so-called holy sites and shrines. Later the Muslims captured the city. Today there are two Islamic structures on the Temple Mount. Late in the seventh century Caliph ‛Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan built the Dome of the Rock on or near the temple site. Although also called a mosque, it is in reality a shrine. South of the Dome of the Rock is the present-day el-Aqsa mosque constructed near the beginning of the seventh century on the site of an earlier building.
Because the kings of the Davidic line were God’s anointed, sitting upon “Jehovah’s throne” (1Ch 29:23; Ps 122:3-5), Jerusalem itself was also called “the throne of Jehovah”; and those tribes or nations turning to it in recognition of God’s sovereignty were, in effect, being congregated to the name of Jehovah. (Jer 3:17; Ps 122:1-4; Isa 27:13) Those hostile to or fighting against Jerusalem were, in actuality, opposing the expression of God’s sovereignty. This was certain to occur, in view of the prophetic statement at Genesis 3:15.
Jerusalem therefore represented the seat of the divinely constituted government or typical kingdom of God. From it went forth God’s law, his word, and his blessing. (Mic 4:2; Ps 128:5)
Since Jehovah’s praise and his will are effected primarily by his intelligent creatures, it was not the buildings forming the city that determined his continued use of the city but the people in it, rulers and ruled, priests and people. (Ps 102:18-22; Isa 26:1, 2) While these were faithful, honoring Jehovah’s name by their words and life course, he blessed and defended Jerusalem. (Ps 125:1, 2; Isa 31:4, 5) Jehovah’s disfavor soon came upon the people and their kings because of the apostate course the majority followed. For this reason Jehovah declared his purpose to reject the city that had borne his name. (2Ki 21:12-15; 23:27) He would remove “support and stay” from the city, resulting in its becoming filled with tyranny, with juvenile delinquency, with disrespect for men in honorable positions; Jerusalem would suffer abasement and severe humiliation. (Isa 3:1-8, 16-26) Even though Jehovah God restored the city 70 years after permitting its destruction by Babylon, making it again beautiful as the joyful center of true worship in the earth (Isa 52:1-9; 65:17-19), the people and their leaders reverted to their apostate course once more.
Nick:
Jehovah preserved the city until the sending of his Son to earth. It had to be there for the Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled. (Isa 28:16; 52:7; Zec 9:9) Israel’s apostate course was climaxed in the impalement of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. (Compare Mt 21:33-41.) Taking place as it did at Jerusalem, instigated by the nation’s leaders with popular support, this made certain God’s complete and irreversible rejection of the city as representing him and bearing his name. (Compare Mt 16:21; Lu 13:33-35.) Neither Jesus nor his apostles foretold any restoration by God of earthly Jerusalem and its temple to come after the city’s divinely decreed destruction, which occurred in 70 C.E.And here's the point of all this:
Yet the name Jerusalem continued to be used as symbolic of something greater than the earthly city. The apostle Paul, by divine inspiration, revealed that there is a “Jerusalem above,” which he speaks of as the “mother” of anointed Christians. (Ga 4:25, 26) This places the “Jerusalem above” in the position of a wife to Jehovah God the great Father and Life-Giver. When earthly Jerusalem was used as the chief city of God’s chosen nation, it, too, was spoken of as a woman, married to God, being tied to him by holy bonds in a covenant relationship. (Isa 51:17, 21, 22; 54:1, 5; 60:1, 14)
It thus stood for, or was representative of, the entire congregation of God’s human servants. “Jerusalem above” must therefore represent the entire congregation of Jehovah’s loyal spirit servants.Hi david,
You have no right to read into Revelation your own dogmatic interpretations.2 Peter 1
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
