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Hi T8,
Good points.
But you say
“But eternal life in a flesh body on earth?”
That is impossible.
1Cor 15
“50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. “
And instead
“49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. “because we need a new body, like unto the angels
“44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.”
Luke 20:36
for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.Indeed our mortal flesh bodies cannot last and must be changed to the heavenly image.
” 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Hi t8,
One sure thing is that we would be able to go to heaven. Christ is our mentor, we are remade in his imperishable bodily image at resurrection and he went into heaven. We will have a heavenly body.Dan7
” 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. “We know from Job1-2 that Satan was able to be on earth and in heaven.
Could this be the meaning of this verse-going in and out?
Jn10
“9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. “Either way I do not believe it will be our new home.
Hi:
The following scripture indicates that we will be in heaven while the wrath of God is being poured out on those who have received the “mark of the beast”.
Quote Revelation 19
19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
19:3
And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.God bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2008,14:36) Hi 94,
You say
“Those who died in their sins prior to this will raised from the dead to receive their judgment which will be determined during the 1000 years.”The millenium is a time of joy and reestablishment of godly order on earth and not judgement in my view.
The judgement follows.
If it did not then those who join the rebellion against Christ and His God at the end of the millenium would not be judged for doing so.
I agree exactly with 94 here and completely disagree with Nick.
The judgement day is the thousand years. After these things, Satan must be let loose for a little while. The number who follow him at that time, are unknown, as sands of sea. During the judgement day, man will be brought to perfection, and drink from fountains of waters of life.Nicoloas, may I call you nickolaus?
I'm wondering what you think would have happened with adam and eve and their offspring if they didn't sin?
They were perfect, and would have lived on earth, forever.So I wonder what the need is, in your opionon on all this talk about putting on incorruption, etc.
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.”Our bodies of flesh are corruptable. They break down, corrupt. They are perishable.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”God has given such Christians who make up the “little flock” the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””Sorry, getting off topic. Again, my question to you: Why do you think that those who inherit the earth will need to put on incorruption, or have different sort of bodies, yet they are living on earth?
Of course, if some went to heaven to make up the kingdom governement, they they would have to be make imperishable, incorruptable, and put on a new body, a spirit body, and become sharers in divine nature. But why would ones who are living on earth have to do this?Quote But you say
“But eternal life in a flesh body on earth?”
That is impossible.God did not design our bodies to break down. It is only because sin entered the world (and death and sickness) through sin, that we experience the harsh reality of our existence in these deteriorating bodies.
God did not pre-destine Adam to sin. God wanted only good things for his offspring. Had they not disobeyed him (rebelled) they would have a continued existence and that existence wouldn't have been comparible to what we experience today. We see through blurred eye glasses and are filled with toxins and lethargy. Our bodies were never meant to be like this.
God's original will for the earth cannot be changed. Yet, He has added the kingdom arrangement where some will be “bought from the earth” and will rule over mankind as priests and judges. But this does not change that his original purpose for man and the earth were perfect.
Man does not need to be transformed into a spirit being to live in the physical realm. You only need to be a sharer of divine nature when you live where God lives, heaven.Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2008,10:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2008,14:36) Hi 94,
You say
“Those who died in their sins prior to this will raised from the dead to receive their judgment which will be determined during the 1000 years.”The millenium is a time of joy and reestablishment of godly order on earth and not judgement in my view.
The judgement follows.
If it did not then those who join the rebellion against Christ and His God at the end of the millenium would not be judged for doing so.
I agree exactly with 94 here and completely disagree with Nick.
The judgement day is the thousand years. After these things, Satan must be let loose for a little while. The number who follow him at that time, are unknown, as sands of sea. During the judgement day, man will be brought to perfection, and drink from fountains of waters of life.
David I agree with you, but you stopped at the end of the millenium. What will happen then? This earth is preserved for the wicked for the lake of fire. All those that followed Satan and Antichrist will be thrown into the lake of fire and will burn up. Then the new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and we will be with God and our Lord forever. That is my hope. No more tears, no more sorrow. Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard prepared for then that love Him. God wants love not sacrifice , He send His only begotten Son to die for us so we can have eternal Life. The Father has given us to Jesus and Jesus promised us that He will not loose us, and I depend on that. Can we still loose out. Yes, we have to do our part and overcome our faults. We are all sinners and not perfect. But with Gods Holy Spirit in us, we can do it. Thanks to our Heavenly Father and His Son our Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote David I agree with you, but you stopped at the end of the millenium. What will happen then?
Judgment Day will see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state.REVELATION 20:7-10
“Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were];1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.”When Christ has brought mankind to perfection, he will then give back to the Father the authority that was conferred upon him for this work.
Since sin and death are to be completely removed from earth’s inhabitants, this also brings to an end the need for Jesus’ serving as “a helper with the Father” in the sense of providing propitiation for the sins of imperfect humans. (1Jo 2:1, 2) That brings mankind back to the original status enjoyed when the perfect man Adam was in Eden. Adam while perfect needed no one to stand between him and God to make propitiation. So, too, at the termination of Jesus’ Thousand Year Rule, earth’s inhabitants will be both in position and under responsibility to answer for their course of action before Jehovah God as the Supreme Judge, without recourse to anyone as legal intermediary, or helper. Jehovah, the Sovereign Power, thus becomes “all things to everyone.”
The Millennial Rule of the Kingdom will have fully accomplished its purpose; so no longer will there be a need for this subsidiary government to remain between Jehovah and mankind. And since sin and death will have been completely removed and mankind redeemed, the need for Jesus as a Redeemer ends. The Bible explains: “Then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”—1 Corinthians 15:28.
REVELATION 20:14-15
“And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. . . .Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”No one could object that any humans who are destroyed eternally at that time did not have a chance or that their wrong course was due to imperfection. No, they will be like perfect Adam and Eve, who willingly chose to rebel against Jehovah’s righteous rule.—Revelation 20:7-10; Nahum 1:9.
During the 1000 year reign, under Kingdom rule, earth’s inhabitants will realize marvelous physical benefits. “At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness.” (Isaiah 35:5, 6) Flesh disfigured by age or disease will become fresher than that of a child, and chronic weaknesses will give way to vigorous health. “Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.” (Job 33:25) The day will come when no one will have reason to say, “I am sick.” Why? Because God-fearing humans will be relieved of the burden of sin and its grievous effects. (Isaiah 33:24; Luke 13:11-13)
And as you said, God “will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”—Revelation 21:4.
Also, by the end of the 1000 years, the earth should be a paradise–a global garden of eden.
Hi david,
You say
“Judgment Day will see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state.”
Mankind perfect?
You must be joking.Hi david,
You say
“No one could object that any humans who are destroyed eternally at that time did not have a chance or that their wrong course was due to imperfection. No, they will be like perfect Adam and Eve, who willingly chose to rebel against Jehovah’s righteous rule.”God's Word says
Gen 1
“31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD'Guess Who is right.
Quote Hi david,
You say
“Judgment Day will see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state.”
Mankind perfect?
You must be joking.Ever hear of God, Nick? What I meant by that was that they would not have the effects of inherited sin. They would not experience degeneration. They would not be in a steady state of slow death. They would be as Adam and Eve were and could have continued being.
Quote Hi david,
You say
“No one could object that any humans who are destroyed eternally at that time did not have a chance or that their wrong course was due to imperfection. No, they will be like perfect Adam and Eve, who willingly chose to rebel against Jehovah’s righteous rule.”God's Word says
Gen 1
“31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD'Guess Who is right.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make nick. How does one thought disagree with the other?
Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2008,10:08) Quote Hi david,
You say
“Judgment Day will see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state.”
Mankind perfect?
You must be joking.Ever hear of God, Nick? What I meant by that was that they would not have the effects of inherited sin. They would not experience degeneration. They would not be in a steady state of slow death. They would be as Adam and Eve were and could have continued being.
David,
I believe that we will be like Adam and Eve if they had eaten of the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil. My opinion WmQuote 1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.Quote (david @ Feb. 06 2008,15:10) Quote Hi david,
You say
“No one could object that any humans who are destroyed eternally at that time did not have a chance or that their wrong course was due to imperfection. No, they will be like perfect Adam and Eve, who willingly chose to rebel against Jehovah’s righteous rule.”God's Word says
Gen 1
“31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD'Guess Who is right.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make nick. How does one thought disagree with the other?
Hi David,
VERY GOOD
and
PERFECT
are different.Scripture must be handled carefully.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 06 2008,15:35) Quote 1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Hi 94,
Indeed when the Man from heaven returns in his new imperishable body those who rise or are changed will be similarly attired.True Nick, We will receive a spiritual body when he Lord comes for the church:
Quote 1 Co 15 for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, F60 where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Hi,
From the official JW website
“The Bible shows that only a limited number go to heaven and that those who will live forever on earth will be a great crowd of unlimited number.”
Where is it said that some go to heaven?See page 9 of this thread for starters.
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
(Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”God made man in fleshly form. we live on the earth, in the physical realm. Spirit's live in the spirit realm, heaven. Jesus lived in heaven for eons of time. He came to the earth for a reason and then returned. He is a mighty spirit creature, not flesh. His brothers who he made the covenant for the kingdom will be with him, and he is in heaven, and has always been in heaven, except for his having to come to the earth to die for us.
Those ones, will be like him as the scripture says and shall see him and God as they are, because they will be like them. (1 jo 3:2)
Hi david,
We will be like the man from heaven.We should not assume that because those in Christ will have heavenly bodies they will live in another heavenly realm.
Scripture tells us Christ will reign on earth from the throne of David.
So those in him will be with him doing their appointed works.
1Cor 15
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Presumption leads to false teaching.
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