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Quote (Stu @ Jan. 04 2010,21:55) P2A Quote ok stu, the whole world was completley flat at one time and there were no volcanoes or mountains at all and thats why there are sea fossils in the mountain tops. whatever. good luck with that.
That is NOT what happened, but as you don’t seem to care, then I can not care too! This is JW mythology and it is as wrong as anything could possibly be!Quote yes i do believe in the bible, no proof anywhere from anyone tells that its fake or incorrect. and is backed by science and history. places in time and historical writings and painting and carvings and science has shown it to be very accurate and not a large book made up of smaller fairy tales. good enough for me.
The flood didn’t happen (as I have shown you with dendrochronological evidence, plus the evidence that the layers claimed to have been deposited in the ‘flood’ date very differently, plus lots more: see the thread called “The Too Hard Basket” for more. The alleged exodus didn’t happen, according to archeology. There has never been a time when there were just two humans, according to biology. The myth of the Tower of Babel does not fit at all with any of our knowledge of how languages develop. It is not possible to see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain in the Middle East (Tonga was a kingdom in 30CE, and you definitely can’t see that from Palestine). Do you need MORE?These are myths, not reality. How mad would you have to be to believe in the face of clear physical evidence to the contrary? Thank goodness we (living in Western democracies) have a secular society that demands a high standard of evidence and does not just accept religious fantasy stories as the basis for policy.
Stuart
im not a JW!!!!!the bible does use illistations and i assure you when satan had “showed” jesus all the kingdoms im sure it was from the mountain top looking via normanl eyes.
still as far as the pines, what i have read they do not have any that are 10000 years old.
as far as the whole god is RNA, i don't think that kid was joking about that. i'm not making it up
i too would have to believe that the whole word was not literally covered in water.
i think that a lot of the bible is not really literal stories or events but examples or ones that did but not as sogrand events but used to help signify the meanings more
it is hard to swallow, just as the poster earlier is claiming that dinosaurs were @ the time of this “flood” with man.
were just having a disucssion stuart, i mean no real disrespect.
I appreciate that you are not taking all of the bible literally. But how do you decide which bits to take literally and which bits as allegories or metaphors? I was not suggesting you ARE a JW, but the but about the earth being much flatter is still their fantasy story, even Wikipedia references the Watchtower!
The flood story has no special meaning unless it was global. It becomes a potentially true story with no symbolic value whatever, because most humans and members of other species would have survived it!
Keep working on that bristlecone pines thing. There are pine trees from 10,000 years ago (and much longer) but I never said they live for 10,000 years, did I? Can you read the link and see how it is possible to date to 10,000 years, otherwise forget about it and at least stop misrepresenting it? There are so many other reasons why Noah's flood is ridiculous that you don't even need that as a disproof. Think of the Australian Aboriginies. They have been on the Australian continent for over 40,000 years continuously. If there was a global flood then the Noah myth would mean they were all drowned, then after the flood Noah's descendants moved back to Australia, evolved at super-high speed exactly the same characteristics and developed exactly the same population and cultural practises as if nothing had ever happened.
I will stop with this, as you seem convinced the Noachian flood is not real anyway. Good for you!
The myth of anyone seeing all the kingdoms of the world from one high mountain has similar problems. To the ancients who wrote the scriptures, the world was flat and the only kingdoms they knew about were those within reasonable migration distance of Palestine. Someone showing you all the kingdoms of the world would be possible in their view, but of course it is actually impossible.
If it meant to imply that satan made these things visible to Jesus, who looked at them with his 'ordinary' demigod eyes, then why did they need to climb a mountain at all. If it does not really mean they saw ALL of the kingdoms, then the story is a bit pointless again, because the real estate that satan is using to temp Jesus does not include the WHOLE world, the absolute point of the story.
It's either not possible, or magic, or a toothless concept.
What is this you mean about RNA? Humans use DNA as their genomic record, RNA is involved in the translation of DNA into proteins. Is a chemical translation mechanism a metaphor for god?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 05 2010,07:34) I appreciate that you are not taking all of the bible literally. But how do you decide which bits to take literally and which bits as allegories or metaphors? I was not suggesting you ARE a JW, but the but about the earth being much flatter is still their fantasy story, even Wikipedia references the Watchtower! The flood story has no special meaning unless it was global. It becomes a potentially true story with no symbolic value whatever, because most humans and members of other species would have survived it!
Keep working on that bristlecone pines thing. There are pine trees from 10,000 years ago (and much longer) but I never said they live for 10,000 years, did I? Can you read the link and see how it is possible to date to 10,000 years, otherwise forget about it and at least stop misrepresenting it? There are so many other reasons why Noah's flood is ridiculous that you don't even need that as a disproof. Think of the Australian Aboriginies. They have been on the Australian continent for over 40,000 years continuously. If there was a global flood then the Noah myth would mean they were all drowned, then after the flood Noah's descendants moved back to Australia, evolved at super-high speed exactly the same characteristics and developed exactly the same population and cultural practises as if nothing had ever happened.
I will stop with this, as you seem convinced the Noachian flood is not real anyway. Good for you!
The myth of anyone seeing all the kingdoms of the world from one high mountain has similar problems. To the ancients who wrote the scriptures, the world was flat and the only kingdoms they knew about were those within reasonable migration distance of Palestine. Someone showing you all the kingdoms of the world would be possible in their view, but of course it is actually impossible.
If it meant to imply that satan made these things visible to Jesus, who looked at them with his 'ordinary' demigod eyes, then why did they need to climb a mountain at all. If it does not really mean they saw ALL of the kingdoms, then the story is a bit pointless again, because the real estate that satan is using to temp Jesus does not include the WHOLE world, the absolute point of the story.
It's either not possible, or magic, or a toothless concept.
What is this you mean about RNA? Humans use DNA as their genomic record, RNA is involved in the translation of DNA into proteins. Is a chemical translation mechanism a metaphor for god?
Stuart
thats the defense i was given from someone who believes in science and is a athiest.he says that god is just rna, a virus. that things mutate and change and have always been
my point to him was if he believes that all this had always been and forever, then why is it so different to say that god had always exsisted. and that there is a plan for us and were not just nothing in time if nothingness with no purpose or meaning or anything.
The difference is that I have a plan for me, and you have a plan for you. You may have adopted the plan you think that scripture outlines for you, but the only difference is that I have made my own clothing and you have bought yours off the peg. You have still made the decision about the meaning of your own life as much as I have made the decision for myself. If you are saying that REALLY there is no decision except the one you made, well that makes a bit of a joke of the idea of free will, doesn't it.
Stuart
you have free, will but if you wanna live forever in gods kingdom then you have to do it his way.
LMAO –
Quote (peace2all @ Jan. 06 2010,02:34) you have free, will but if you wanna live forever in gods kingdom then you have to do it his way. LMAO –
Why?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 06 2010,06:38) Quote (peace2all @ Jan. 06 2010,02:34) you have free, will but if you wanna live forever in gods kingdom then you have to do it his way. LMAO –
Why?Stuart
i was making a funny stu.OK. Fair play to you.
I am asking you why you have to do it 'his' way. Why can he not accept you for what you are? Why can your god not do it YOUR way?
OR, if you like,
Why would anyone want to accept this god?
I'm not being funny!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 06 2010,10:19) OK. Fair play to you. I am asking you why you have to do it 'his' way. Why can he not accept you for what you are? Why can your god not do it YOUR way?
OR, if you like,
Why would anyone want to accept this god?
I'm not being funny!
Stuart
one of life's many mystery's stu.i am just as you are in this place called life
maybe this is one of many stages of our exsistance.
i see your point though stu.
i just had watched a video regarding the “flood” and there are distinct fossils in distinct layers that tell a different tale.
there should be a layer that has all the fossils in one specific layer but none has ever been found.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 06 2010,13:21) Do you have a link to that video? Stuart
i can get it, it was on youtube.though dinosaur bones are also found literally poking up from the ground also it still is a good explanation.
P2A
Very entertaining vids. Thanks.
You know that Kent Hovind, the creationist who was mocked in the first video, is serving a prison term for lying about his tax. Shame he can't be imprisoned for all the lies he has told about science!
Stuart
What do people make of supposed dinosaur and human footprints on the same strata?
Although it makes no difference to me if they existed with humans or not, I post the following for comment.
=====================================The Turnage-Patton Trail of dinosaur tracks in Dinosaur Valley State Park are now notoriously famous. Less well known is the formation of fossilised tracks of humans and dinosaurs on the same strata material formed at the same time in history.
The footprint trail known as the Taylor Trail, after its discoverer, Stan Taylor, is also in the Paluxy River bed. Taylor began his excavations in 1969 and continued every season for three years. He discovered a very long dinosaur trail that travelled at 30 degrees across the riverbed. However, what was of startling importance was that running alongside the three-toed dinosaur prints was a trail of modern human footprints, in some cases even overlapping the dinosaur tracks.The remarkable nature of this find was that both sets of prints were formed on the same bedding plane, which suggests that they must have been made relatively soon to one another and certainly before the mud bed dried.
In the 1930’s, Jim Ryals removed an entire fossil slab from the riverbed containing a clear, detailed left human footprint. He left the right print and other tracks untouched.The evidence of co-habitation of dinosaurs and humans is alarming to closed-theory evolutionists but it is not a new assumption. Could St George’s slain dragon be a dinosaur? Many cultures, in particular the Chinese, strongly subscribe to ‘dragon’ dinosaurs in their recent past. The bible speaks of the two great dinosaurs, Leviathan and Behemoth.
The evidence that humans actually lived with dinosaurs was too disturbing for two evolutionary scientists who, after hearing Dr Patton at the 1989 science conference, immediately flew to Dallas, Texas, and the next day, using a crowbar, destroyed the remaining human footprints in the riverbed. However, their quest was undone when the Texas drought of 1999 revealed another, even more dramatic trail of human and dinosaur tracks together, the best archaeological artefacts yet to show that humans lived with the dinosaurs.
Reproduced courtesy of http://www.ArchaeologyExpert.co.uk – extensive information on archaeology and artefacts
A rebuttal to the human and dino footprint saga can be found here. It was way too long for me to read all of it, but I got that this guy perhaps thinks that there was a dinosaur that walked in like fashion to a man, i.e., “that dinosaurs were capable of making elongated impressions by impressing their metatarsi into the sediment like humans”.
It makes no difference if humans and dinosaurs existed together at some point. Although that statement is true even now if you beleive that birds are dinosaurs based on their skeletons. We even live with animals that predate dinosaurs, e.g., the Tuatara of New Zealand.
http://www.virtualoceania.net/newzealand/photos/fauna/tuatara/
Whatever the outcome, sensible evidence demands a creator, not a blind faith that believes in blind chance.
Quote Whatever the outcome, sensible evidence demands a creator, not a blind faith that believes in blind chance.
So, no matter what the evidence says, you will go with 'a creator'.How very open-minded of you.
Stuart
human lived with dinosaurs? but there is no proof whatesoever..
no carving,painting,text.. no nothing stating man and dino lived together.
i don't think many of the stories in the bible are literal.
some things just don't add up to it all being literal.
EX: adam & eve had cain & abel. cain killed abel and then cast away by god. why did he cry out about being killed for his actions by others and god putting up as sign not to touch him.. unless there were others already living on earth.
ten it says cain had a wife.. where she come from? nothing mentioned of any other people in genesis at that time.
where did all the races of peole come from? noah and his few sons and wifes would have been most likely one race.
there were not that many people living then and the whole world to them could have been the region they lived in.
there are also other accounts of loods in different cultures and world areas. maybe god had placed man ans woman all over and was doing the same thing, thats why religions are all different but many same base ideas.
maybe god made adam & eve in more than one location but were referenced t those two names only.
noah said there was nephlim or anakim on earth that were not descendents of adam that were already around. where they from?
some things sound better that oh god used a miracle to do this or hide that or achieve something.
Quote i was raised a JW . . . . i was taught when i went during the 1970's and 1980's. . . . just curious because i was taught that those 7 days were literal 7 days –peace2all.
I don't know how this is possible. But a book written in 1946 (Let God be True) shows that they certainly didn't think they were 24 hour days back then. From memory, I'm quite certain they didn't believe this in the 80's either.
Quote OK, I see your position. Did you think at the time that it was insane to believe that dinosaurs died in the alleged flood? If so, did you express that to anyone, and did you get any reaction?
–stu
I seeeee what's going on here. We're playing the “create false arguments” game.
I could not find this belief either. What I found on the internet were statments like this:
I have heard some Witnesses say that the dinosaurs were killed off in the flood,
Unfortunately, “some” Witnesses WERE not very scientific. But it's different to say that “some” Witnesses had their odd theories about things and to say “JW's believe….”
Stu, I've mentioned Dinosaur poop to you like 3 times. I thought you would have jumped all over that, but I guess you're just not putting it together. Have you ever considered what's in the dino poop? And, what does Genesis say about other animals eating other animals? If you want to create some argument about dinosaurs, start there, (in the poop) because that actually is an argument. I guess some people just aren't that into dino poop.
Ok, this took forever to find. I had to go through a lot of internet garbage (people repeatedly claiming JW's believe that humans walked with dinosaurs) until I found this. Since I can't actually find any reference to this belief but only people saying this is what they thought they believed, I think the following seems accurate:
Quote Rather curiously, the 1961 edition of the New World Translation (with the distintive bright green cover), had end leaf maps bound into the front and back of the Bible. The one in the front was of the Middle East / Mediterranean area and it had little artist's renditions of some of the events associated with places on the map (e.g., I think there was smoke and Moses on Mt. Sinai). There were a few dinosaurs randomly place throughout the map, from which one could draw the reasonable inference that humans and dinos co-existed at some point in time. However, as far as I know (and I really searched when I was a Dub), they have never definitively stated whether or not humans and dinosaurs co-existed. I do remember reading something to the effect that the dinosaurs may have become extinct by the time Adam and Eve were created, but that they were unsure and the dinos could have died in the flood.
Here's a link that has a picture, which is probably the picture and evidence that started this idea. I guess this does suggest that in 1961 they believed that dinosaurs at one time existed with people.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw….-IMPACT
Apparently, the dinosaur lived in Africa.
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