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I have now read and see that there are different beliefs within the trinity doctrine itself.
on one hand some believe that all three are the same one god one person, where as some think that they are separate things but all are from god or his essence and are connected in that sense a extension of his power and works
Jesus had to call upon his father to help him do teh miracles he performed and that god through Jesus created all. so i see that god’s actions or spirit is what makes all things possible, is that what trinitarians are trying to say?
my question is
do you believe in Christ as the bible states that he is god’s son and we are to have faith in him but not to worship him but only his father.
is it because he was a visible extension of god to us and thus did what he was told by means of his father.?
i am curious because if in fact you do not worship Jesus as only his father is supposed to be and that you still acknowledge Jesus for who he is and have faith in him, you thus still would be doing the same as one who says they are all totally separate.
so do you woship jesus as god too or not?
peace2all
If you believe the Bible, then let me ask you this;
what do these scriptures mean to you?Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 42:8 I am (YHWH) the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Why should there even be a question raised whether there are three or not?
Do you argue with some one that does not believe in gravity?Georg
Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 26 2009,04:48) i have now read and see that there are different beleifs within the trinity doctrine itself. on one hand some beleive that all three are the same one god one person, where as some think that they are seperate things but all are from god or his essence and are connected in that sense a extension of his power and works
jesus had to call uponhis father to help him do teh miracles he performed and that god through jesus created all. so i see that god's actions or spirit is what makes all things possible, is that what trinitarians are trying to say?
my question is
do you beleive in christ as the bible states that he is god's son and we are to have faith in him but not to worship him but only his father.
is it becasue he was a visible extension of god to us and thus did what he was told by means of his father.?
i am curious becasuse if in fact you do not worship jesus as only his father is supposed to be and that you still acknowdge jesus for who he is and have faith in him, you thus still would be doing the same as one who says they are all totally seperate.
so do you woship jesus as god too or not?
peace2all,
Those who believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy spirit are one person are not Trinitarians. They are Unitarians. Trinitarians believe that they are three persons but one substance.thinker
Quote (banana @ Dec. 28 2009,14:39) peace2all If you believe the Bible, then let me ask you this;
what do these scriptures mean to you?Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 42:8 I am (YHWH) the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Why should there even be a question raised whether there are three or not?
Do you argue with some one that does not believe in gravity?Georg
Geore,
First, peace2all asked trinitarians to post here. Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? Second, Deuteronomy 6:4 is OLD TESTAMENT. The new testament says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (Jude 4-5). You are not a part of old covenant Israel. You are supposedly a member of the new testament church. The new testament church is required to confess Jesus Christ as her Lord and her God.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,14:11) Quote (banana @ Dec. 28 2009,14:39) peace2all If you believe the Bible, then let me ask you this;
what do these scriptures mean to you?Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 42:8 I am (YHWH) the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Why should there even be a question raised whether there are three or not?
Do you argue with some one that does not believe in gravity?Georg
Geore,
First, peace2all asked trinitarians to post here. Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? Second, Deuteronomy 6:4 is OLD TESTAMENT. The new testament says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (Jude 4-5). You are not a part of old covenant Israel. You are supposedly a member of the new testament church. The new testament church is required to confess Jesus Christ as her Lord and her God.thinker
no, I don't have a reading problem, but you have a thinking problem.
Don't you guys post on the none trinitarian posts as well, apparently you have a reading problem.
Frankly, I believe you all should post on the none believers section, because YOU DON'T believe the Word of God.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2009,14:12) Hi TT,
No the God of the Lord Jesus is our God.[1Cor 8, Jn20]
Nick,
This thread is supposed to be for trinitarians. Do you have a reading comprehension peroblem too? If the God of the Lord Jesus is our God to the exclusion of Jesus then why are we commanded to abandon faith in God? Hebrews 6 says that they were to leave the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Faith in God was one of those elementary teachings that they were commanded to abandon. Hebrews was speaking to Israelites who worshiped Jehovah under old covenant regulations.You were never commanded to believe Deuteronomy 6:4. You were never required to have faith in God according to old covenant regulations. Moses said, “Hear O Israel.” But you are not under Moses. The Mosaic code for faith in God has been cancelled once and for all. You are under the apostlolic code which says that you are to have faith in Christ:
Quote 1 John 5:13: These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
You are under the new covenant requirement for faith which is “believe in God and also in Jesus.” The faith in God that you advocate is according to the old covenant and you are COMMANDED to abandon that. If you don't it will not be possible to renew you again to repentance. (Heb. 6).thinker
Quote (banana @ Dec. 29 2009,14:28) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,14:11) Quote (banana @ Dec. 28 2009,14:39) peace2all If you believe the Bible, then let me ask you this;
what do these scriptures mean to you?Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 42:8 I am (YHWH) the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Why should there even be a question raised whether there are three or not?
Do you argue with some one that does not believe in gravity?Georg
Geore,
First, peace2all asked trinitarians to post here. Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? Second, Deuteronomy 6:4 is OLD TESTAMENT. The new testament says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (Jude 4-5). You are not a part of old covenant Israel. You are supposedly a member of the new testament church. The new testament church is required to confess Jesus Christ as her Lord and her God.thinker
no, I don't have a reading problem, but you have a thinking problem.
Don't you guys post on the none trinitarian posts as well, apparently you have a reading problem.Georg
Georg,
You have both a reading and a thinking problem. See my post to Nick below:Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2009,14:12) Hi TT,
No the God of the Lord Jesus is our God.[1Cor 8, Jn20]
Nick,
This thread is supposed to be for trinitarians. Do you have a reading comprehension peroblem too? If the God of the Lord Jesus is our God to the exclusion of Jesus then why are we commanded to abandon faith in God? Hebrews 6 says that they were to leave the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Faith in God was one of those elementary teachings that they were commanded to abandon. Hebrews was speaking to Israelites who worshiped Jehovah under old covenant regulations.You were never commanded to believe Deuteronomy 6:4. You were never required to have faith in God according to old covenant regulations. Moses said, “Hear O Israel.” But you are not under Moses. The Mosaic code for faith in God has been cancelled once and for all. You are under the apostlolic code which says that you are to have faith in Christ:
Quote 1 John 5:13: These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
You are under the new covenant requirement for faith which is “believe in God and also in Jesus.” The faith in God that you advocate is according to the old covenant and you are COMMANDED to abandon that. If you don't it will not be possible to renew you again to repentance. (Heb. 6).thinker
thinker
I guess you don't believe in gravity either do ye; it was created by the God of the Old Testament.
Georg
Quote (banana @ Dec. 29 2009,14:36) thinker I guess you don't believe in gravity either do ye; it was created by the God of the Old Testament.
Georg
Georg,That's it? That's all you got? Jesus said, “Believe in God and believe ALSO in Me” (John 14:1). Is this not a departure from Deuteronmomy 6:4?
The apostle John said, “I write these things that you may believe in the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13). Is this not also a departure from Deuteronomy 6:4? If you say yes then you admit that we are not under Deuteronomy 6:4. If you say no then you deny the gospel. Answer me plainly without any anti-trinitarian double talk.
Georg:
Quote I guess you don't believe in gravity either do ye; it was created by the God of the Old Testament.
I thought you and Irene believe that Jesus is the Creator.
thinker
thinker
Does it really matter what I tell you, or what scripture In give you, you don't believe either.
Try this.Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Are you paying attention to what it says? BY WHOM, that refers to Jesus, HE, that refers to the Father, MADE THE WORLDS.
Jesus did the creating, BUT the Father was the power behind Jesus.Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
If Jesus was God, could he have been MADE better then the angels?
If Jesus was God, would he not already own everything? how can you inherit which is already yours?Don't get dizzy trying to spin this one up.
Georg
Quote (banana @ Dec. 29 2009,15:31) thinker Does it really matter what I tell you, or what scripture In give you, you don't believe either.
Try this.Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Are you paying attention to what it says? BY WHOM, that refers to Jesus, HE, that refers to the Father, MADE THE WORLDS.
Jesus did the creating, BUT the Father was the power behind Jesus.Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
If Jesus was God, could he have been MADE better then the angels?
If Jesus was God, would he not already own everything? how can you inherit which is already yours?Don't get dizzy trying to spin this one up.
Georg
Georg,
The English “worlds” is wrong translation. It is the Greek word “aion” which means “ages.” It says that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. It is not talking about the creation of the physical universe but about the creation of time.Note Young's Literal translation: 2 “in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages“
I noticed how you ignored verses 8-10 inwhich the Father Himself attributes the creation of the physical universe to the Son
Quote 8 to the Son He says:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”10 And: “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.This is a clear statement of the Father's own testimony to the Son. The Father said that the Son created the physical universe by His own hands.
Verse 2 says that the Father created the ages of time through the Son. Verses 8-10 clearly say that the Father credits the creation of the physical universe to the Son alone. Everywhere in the New testament the creation of the physical universe is attributed to the Son alone.
You don't want to call the Father a liar do you? You and Irene once had the truth. Why did you trash it?
Now answer my question from before. We are commmanded to believe in God and ALSO in Jesus. Is this not a departure from the old testament requirement in Deuteronomy 6:4?
thinker
i don't think that its so clear cut as to if they are only seperate and totally different in all sense or if thy are all from the same source yet not equal in every aspect.
i see that he is called the son of god but then also you can be lead to beleive the other also.
why when jesus said who do you think i am they replied you are Christ jesus son of the living god?
LIVING GOD…..it makes me think that jesus is son that by means he was born via womb as a son and the “living god” because he was living with them in front of them via human form jesus. the living god yhwh is also jesus as a extension of his being the holy spirit is an extension it is all that god is and can do.
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,16:19) Quote (banana @ Dec. 29 2009,15:31) thinker Does it really matter what I tell you, or what scripture In give you, you don't believe either.
Try this.Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Are you paying attention to what it says? BY WHOM, that refers to Jesus, HE, that refers to the Father, MADE THE WORLDS.
Jesus did the creating, BUT the Father was the power behind Jesus.Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
If Jesus was God, could he have been MADE better then the angels?
If Jesus was God, would he not already own everything? how can you inherit which is already yours?Don't get dizzy trying to spin this one up.
Georg
Georg,
The English “worlds” is wrong translation. It is the Greek word “aion” which means “ages.” It says that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. It is not talking about the creation of the physical universe but about the creation of time.Note Young's Literal translation: 2 “in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages“
I noticed how you ignored verses 8-10 inwhich the Father Himself attributes the creation of the physical universe to the Son
Quote 8 to the Son He says:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”10 And: “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.This is a clear statement of the Father's own testimony to the Son. The Father said that the Son created the physical universe by His own hands.
Verse 2 says that the Father created the ages of time through the Son. Verses 8-10 clearly say that the Father credits the creation of the physical universe to the Son alone. Everywhere in the New testament the creation of the physical universe is attributed to the Son alone.
You don't want to call the Father a liar do you? You and Irene once had the truth. Why did you trash it?
Now answer my question from before. We are commmanded to believe in God and ALSO in Jesus. Is this not a departure from the old testament requirement in Deuteronomy 6:4?
thinker
thinkerThe difference between you and me is; you have to look in all kinds of books to find the words that agree with your believes. I just look in my Bible, there I know I find the truth.
Georg
Georg said:
Quote The difference between you and me is; you have to look in all kinds of books to find the words that agree with your believes. I just look in my Bible, there I know I find the truth.
Georg,
What book other than the Bible have I offered you?thinker
thinker
You probably don't understand this but, there is only one throne that will last for ever and ever, God's throne.
You are also overlooking the fact that no one has heard the Fathers voice, the scepter of righteousness is a reference to the son, he is the scepter of righteousness of God's kingdom.
Now you may think you have prove in verse 9 that Jesus is God; but notice it says; “YOUR GOD”, has anointed you.
And Paul says whether we call some god in heaven or in earth, there is only one God.1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.No, I did not ignored those scriptures, I was doing you a favor.
Perhaps this is the easy way to explain it to you; God is the Architect, and Jesus is the builder.
Georg
Georg said:
Quote You probably don't understand this but, there is only one throne that will last for ever and ever, God's throne.
Georg,
What Bible are you reading? The throne of David is also forever and ever.Georg:
Quote You are also overlooking the fact that no one has heard the Fathers voice, the scepter of righteousness is a reference to the son, he is the scepter of righteousness of God's kingdom.
Are you saying that just because no one heard the Father call the Son “God” that the Father didn't say it? Did the author to the Hebrews make it up? Maybe you should side with bodhitharta who said that the book of Hebrews is corrupt.Georg:
Quote Now you may think you have prove in verse 9 that Jesus is God; but notice it says; “YOUR GOD”, has anointed you.
The Father said before that “Your throne O GOD.” I accept both propositions by faith. i don't pick and choose as the anti-trinitarians.Georg:
Quote 1Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Note that all things are through both the Father and Christ. If Christ is excluded form being God in this verse then the Father is excluded from being Lord. Are you willing to accept your logical inferences?Georg:
Quote Perhaps this is the easy way to explain it to you; God is the Architect, and Jesus is the builder.
You anti-trinitarians are really a puzzle to me. You believe everyone but the Father. You say that the Father is the supreme God but when He attributes the creation to the Son's own hands you explain it away.It is my personal opinion that the Father is not your God because you deny His own testimony conderning His Son. The Father said to the Son, “The heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS.”
I just don't understand why you have a problem with it. If the Father said it then it's true.
thinker
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