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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,07:00) Hi BD,
Circumcision saves nobody or the doctors would be busy doing them.
Childbearing likewise does not save the heathen despite what Paul taught the saints in 1 tim 2.
Again Simon Magus was not saved by the new circumcision of water baptism as the actions of men are useless without the work of God.
So God made a useless covenant wit Abraham?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,18:46) Hi BD,
Does God just require surgery or is a sign?
Circumcision was a sign of God's covenant that Abraham, Ishmael and all others Abraham was over in authority.It certainly proves that Ishmael was under an EVERLASTING COVENANT with God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2009,07:22) Hi BD,
So just pop along for the op and it's done?
What does pop along mean?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2009,10:53) Hi BD,
You would offer surgery for salvation?
Are you suggesting that God somehow did not know what he was doing?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2009,10:53) Hi BD,
You would offer surgery for salvation?
BTW, you say that surgery for salvation is extreme yet you believe that the murder and death of a Man is less extreme than forskins?I would rather any man give up his foreskin than any man be put to death.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 25 2009,06:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,18:46) Hi BD,
Does God just require surgery or is a sign?
Circumcision was a sign of God's covenant that Abraham, Ishmael and all others Abraham was over in authority.It certainly proves that Ishmael was under an EVERLASTING COVENANT with God.
The covenant of circumcision was NOT part of the Mosaic law covenant established with Israel.It was established prior to the law covenant, and this is well documented by Paul;
“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” [Rom 4:8-13]
Was Ishmael part of the Covenant of Circumcision? Yes he was, and Arabia still is today. But it is similar to the covenant of the rainbow God made with all men, though it was articulated to Noah. We still find the sign of the covenant, in the sky after (and sometimes during) a rain. But that doesn't place us under the Mosaic law covenant with Abraham.
Quote (Paladin @ June 25 2009,11:26) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 25 2009,06:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,18:46) Hi BD,
Does God just require surgery or is a sign?
Circumcision was a sign of God's covenant that Abraham, Ishmael and all others Abraham was over in authority.It certainly proves that Ishmael was under an EVERLASTING COVENANT with God.
The covenant of circumcision was NOT part of the Mosaic law covenant established with Israel.It was established prior to the law covenant, and this is well documented by Paul;
“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” [Rom 4:8-13]
Was Ishmael part of the Covenant of Circumcision? Yes he was, and Arabia still is today. But it is similar to the covenant of the rainbow God made with all men, though it was articulated to Noah. We still find the sign of the covenant, in the sky after (and sometimes during) a rain. But that doesn't place us under the Mosaic law covenant with Abraham.
I agree! My point was not in saying that we were under the law of Moses it was to point out that righteousness of faith in God.Also to make it clear that God has fulfilled his promise to Ishmael through Islam. Muhammad brought Muslims the law just as Moses did.
However just as in Judaism Circumcision stands as an Everlasting Covenant.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2009,13:26) Hi BD,
Moses pointed to Jesus but you bypass him in favour of a guru?
I would never bypass Jesus but you seem to bypass God Almighty to focus on Jesus.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2009,16:24) Hi BD,
Almighty God has given us His Son that we might be saved through him.
Even demons believe.
Almighty God sent His Son to glorify his Father.Jesus taught the Gospel of The Kingdom of God
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2009,06:28) Hi BD,
So seek first the kingdom and leave philosophy till later…. if it still seems relevant.
The Quran is not philosophy it is the Gospel of God to mankindbodhitharta said:
Quote Almighty God sent His Son to glorify his Father. bd,
You're not telling the whole story. Shame on you! Though it is true that God sent the Son to glorify the Father afterwards the Spirit was sent to glorify the Son,Quote …He will glorify Me…( John 16:14) Now Now bd! You must pretend you are in a court of law where you are under oath to tell the WHOLE truth. Since the exaltation of Jesus it is the Son who is glorified and not the Father.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 26 2009,09:39) bodhitharta said: Quote Almighty God sent His Son to glorify his Father. bd,
You're not telling the whole story. Shame on you! Though it is true that God sent the Son to glorify the Father afterwards the Spirit was sent to glorify the Son,Quote …He will glorify Me…( John 16:14) Now Now bd! You must pretend you are in a court of law where you are under oath to tell the WHOLE truth. Since the exaltation of Jesus it is the Son who is glorified and not the Father.
thinker
Hi thinker,The whole story is even more interesting than you put it.
Jesus glorified The Father and afterwards the Spirit was sent to glorify Jesus(The Son) and in Islam The Father is being glorified again because Jesus has put his enemies under his feet.
The Church however went astray and the Kingdom was taken away from them as witness through real history.
Hi BD,
A self glorifying view but inaccurate as the works of Satan are increasing, not decreasing..
Jesus will finally put all enemies beneath his feet during the millenial time.Islam adds nothing.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2009,14:26) Hi BD,
A self glorifying view but inaccurate as the works of Satan are increasing, not decreasing..
Jesus will finally put all enemies beneath his feet during the millenial time.Islam adds nothing.
Fine Nick then believe that Jesus is part of a trinity and that Jesus is God because that is what most Christians believe why believe like Muslims and say that God Almighty is the only true God and there are no partners with Him(No trinity)?
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