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Thanks for the welcome Woutlaw. I thought I'd share my denominational experiences. I was saved in the Salvation Army church and a more mature Christian at the time explained that they did not have the Lord's Supper, so I should attend where she attended which was an Evangelical Church. Sometime later I met a Pentecostal person and they explained that the Holy Ghost is neglected in most of the evangelical churches, and then I attended a Presbyterian church and was explained that the doctrine of Grace, and predestination and the sovereignty of God has been completely neglected in most churches. I then moved and attended a Baptist church and it appears that predominately I have come to realize that most don't agree with each other of the Protestant denominations and they are all starting to look like the Catholics, they feign to protest. I attended a recent service and on the overhead were several pictures of My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ portrayed, noticeably each variation portraying him on earth, in heaven, always as a blonde, and oh so attractive! How profane! First commandment, “thou shalt not make any graven image of anything that is in heaven….” Further, too many scriptures to mention have Jesus preaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath Day, that would make the Sabbath, Saturday. When I have asked Pastors about this they quote, “Let no man judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath day.” This is true, I believe that we should judge no man but that doesn't change the Sabbath Day from being Saturday!
Quote Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 19 2006,12:02)
Here are some sites for JWS on this forumI think david is the only JW in this BBS.
I wonder if it would be useful to create groups that represent denominations, so that members no what each person represents.
I will start up a discussion in the Feedback & Suggestions based on this idea.
I just realized this change is because of me. I have read of several posts where Nick (and I think you too, t8) were asked if you were Jehovah's Witnesses. You must get that a lot. And I understand your wanting to distance yourself from being associated with us. Most people do.
david
Yes that is true david, but I distance myself not from brethren, but from the denominations and divisions that try to ensnare them.
Most christians when they find out that you are a christian, they ask “what church do you go to”? Then they judge you immediately by reason of your answer. This creates a division right away. But if Christ had his way such foolish thinking would be put away.
I really do find this denominational thing very distasteful and against the will of God. Here is what Paul said regarding dvisions/denominations:
1 Corinthians 1:11-13
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?Compare that to the following verse:
Psalm 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!The point is david, that every Christian who is patriotic and supportive of a denomination is really supporting division of the Body of Christ. Such a man is doing a dis-service to Christ as he willed that we be in unity and under one name, that name being his.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.david, how is the world to believe that God sent Jesus Christ, if there are all these denominations. I know that this is one of the things that stopped me from believing in God for the first half of my life. I mean why should the world believe the gospel, when the Body is divided up the way it is. It seems logical to assume that to join the right church is some kind of lottery where you err when you join the wrong one and are very lucky if you join the correct one.
david I assume that you are smarter than perpetuating this stupidy, but I have to ask why you support this by adhering to a denomination and causing harm to the Body?
You're welcome Sandra,
I certainly can relate to your denomintional experiences. I've been on that roller coaster. I got off 8 months ago and I ain't going back. I don't pass judgement on any of those who are in those churches. But for me it was a ball of confusion. I rejoice in the freedom I have now. My relationship with God has actually gotten stronger since I left the denominational world.
Quote david, how is the world to believe that God sent Jesus Christ, if there are all these denominations.
The answer is: The world is not to believe. The majority of mankind will not listen. Even though there would be a world wide witness, it will be just “just as the days of Noah were,”–“they took no note,” said Jesus (Mat 24:37-39)And this in spite of the world wide witness Jesus fortold:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”When the direct persecution didn't work that great, Satan tried something else. He created many more doors. But there some obvious signs that should be visible. One being the world wide witness work that Jesus fortold. (You need great organizition for a huge undertaking like that.) Here's another:
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
Do the members of the World Council of Churches, or whatever it's called, “have love among themselves?” If they have their brother's blood on their hands, I would say no.
Do you t8, and the other people who don't quite believe what you believe, but reject the trinity and oppose organized religion have love among yourselves? There is really no “yourselves” to have love among.Quote david I assume that you are smarter than perpetuating this stupidy, but I have to ask why you support this by adhering to a denomination and causing harm to the Body? t8, I know you are smart enough to know that implying that I am dumb if I believe something, is bad way to reason. Be like us. Join the crowd. What crowd t8? What body are you referring to?–the fragmented un-united selection of people who agree on one and only one thing–organized religion is bad. Look at this forum. There are plenty of those on here who don't believe you have to be part of an organized religion to worship Jehovah God. Yet, which one of them has the truth? You say: God doesn't torture people in hellfire. Nick disagreed. You say one thing, someone else disagrees. How is that unity? You believe there is one Christ and one God. You are doing quite well t8. Even the demons believe that much though.
I believe there were people who reasoned as you do living in the first century, ones who didn't believe they had to be a part of any religion.
Quote I know that this is one of the things that stopped me from believing in God for the first half of my life. I mean why should the world believe the gospel, when the Body is divided up the way it is. It seems logical to assume that to join the right church is some kind of lottery where you err when you join the wrong one and are very lucky if you join the correct one.
Who belong to this “Body” that is “divided up the way it is”? I believe true Christians should stand out as different–different to their workmates, different to their relatives, to be hated by the world. I believe true Christians are no part of the body of Christendom.Quote 1 Corinthians 1:11-13
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
This is why it's so important to consider what the whole Bible has to say on any subject, or else, we may be found following men.Hi david,
I haven't read your post fully yet, but skimming through it I noticed your words:
Quote Do you t8, and the other people who don't quite believe what you believe, but reject the trinity and oppose organized religion have love among yourselves? There is really no “yourselves” to have love among. But I really do not think you understand that I and many others who do not hold to any worldly organisation as the platform for their faith, can and do fellowship with anyone who has true faith. That even includes people who belong to denominations such as yourself.
You see I fellowship not in the name of a denomination but in the name of my Lord. It is people who make up the body, it is not a particular denomination or cult. I would like to think that I see the heart of a person, not the outward appearance.
It boils down to this. Are you carnal minded or spirtual minded? If you are carnal, then you cannot understand spiritual things. If you cannot see the Body, but only a particular denomination as being relevant, then I would seriously have to question which mind you have. If you can see that the Body of Christ is an organisation whose head is Christ, and that this organisation is made up of saved people from all races, sexes, ages, cultures, and even denominations, then it could be said that you can see the Body of Christ. If however you only see a particular denomination as being valid, then you are not only carnal, but you do a dis-service to the Body and even the world. For how is the world to believe when they are told that this denomination is right and this one wrong.
Like I said before, it becomes a kind of lottery and only a lucky few end up choosing the right church. Of course this is foolish thinking, but what conclusion is the world to draw when Christians say “I am a follower of the Baptists”, and I am a “Catholic”, or I am a Jehovah Witness” and then quarrel among themselves about who is right.
Would it not be better to come out of her? It is the truth that sets us free, no denomination can set you free. All they can do is bind you up.
Hi david,
Quote t8, I know you are smart enough to know that implying that I am dumb if I believe something, is bad way to reason. Be like us. Join the crowd. What crowd t8? What body are you referring to?–the fragmented un-united selection of people who agree on one and only one thing–organized religion is bad. Look at this forum. There are plenty of those on here who don't believe you have to be part of an organized religion to worship Jehovah God. Yet, which one of them has the truth? You say: God doesn't torture people in hellfire. Nick disagreed. You say one thing, someone else disagrees. How is that unity? You believe there is one Christ and one God. You are doing quite well t8. Even the demons believe that much though. I belong to those who have true faith in God. I also can see that they do not belong to any one denomination, but can be found in and out of denominations, and all over the earth.
I am not trying to start a new religion or cult david, I preach against such things. Rather, I call those who have true faith to realise that we are the Body and that we should be in unity. If I preach a denomination or try to start one up say the “Antidenomination denomination” then I too am guilty of division.
No, I call God's people out of the divisions that they may be one people. This can only happen if they see spiritually. For it is carnal mindedness that ensnares men in false doctrine and organisations that pose as the complete Body.
Sure there will always be difference of opinion just as there was in Jesus time and shortly after. But what is important is that those who are true believers work together in the Spirit of God. Once we have the Spirit inside us, God will aid us in discovering truth together.
Truth is a journey david, it is not about joining a denomination and then letting them dictate so-called truth to you. Even the ealiest disciples of Christ discovered truth, when they said “it is written” or “remember when he said..”.
The point is that in a worldly way it is easy to say that this particular denomination is the truth and I believe their statement of faith or creed” and now I will spend my life learning what they teach. But the truth is that Jesus is the Truth. When we fellowship with him, we learn truth. God teaches us everyday his truth through life's experiences and revelation.
I even think that we will still be learning stuff even in the next age and it is the journey that makes the story.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-15
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?”So, would you consider someone who believes the trinity to be a believer?
Quote If you can see that the Body of Christ is an organisation whose head is Christ, and that this organisation is made up of saved people from all races, sexes, ages, cultures, and even denominations, then it could be said that you can see the Body of Christ.
I am with you except for the denomination part.
Do you believe that the Body of Christ is divided? It should not be divided.1 CORINTHIANS 1:10
“Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Denominations do not speak in agreement with one another. Hence, they are denominations. To say that there is one person with the right heart condition from one religion that believes one thing and there is another good hearted person from another religion that believes the opposite is to disregard the truth. If these people have the right heart, and are open to it, they will be found, they will know the truth, and they will come out of their opposing teachings. Either there is a trinity or there isn't. Either God burns people in hellfire forever or he doesn't.Quote Like I said before, it becomes a kind of lottery and only a lucky few end up choosing the right church.
It's not luck at all. Jehovah always gives a warning, and he is doing so this time as well. (Mat 24:14)Quote If I preach a denomination or try to start one up say the “Antidenomination denomination” then I too am guilty of division.
That's actually kind of funny. In my mind, perhaps only half jokingly, I often see you that way.T8, let's say that you are exactly right. Let's go even further. Let's say that you have a complete understanding of the Bible and understand everything perfectly.
And as you're following Jesus command (Mat 28:19,20; 24:14) to preach and make disciples of people of all the nations, some actually start to believe what you say (from the Bible, of course.) And so you meet together and don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together as some do (Heb 10:24,25) and more and more people start attending, wanting to learn what you know. And what you know is correct, right? So, pretty soon, the group of fellowshipping grows. And grows.
At this point, do you say: “This is starting to look too much like we're organized,” and separate yourselves from them?Just curious.
david.
The early Christians were organized. God's people, the Jews were organized.
Organization itself isn't wrong. Disagree with the false beliefs or standards, as you should.I voted no. Even the testimonies of Sandra,Kenny,T8, and myself show the harm that denominationalism can cause. I fellowship among all true believers regardless of their denominational affiliation, but myself am part of no mans denomination.
I believe that we should keep the forum as is. Let people judge us by our words and not by titles. In time past had I met David I would not have given him the time of day. Yes I would of debated etc, but never would of taken him seriously because of his denomination. Being on this forum helped me to meet him and others before I was introduced to titles, and it has been an enjoyable experience. (No offense intended David)
What were the early christians called?
They weren't Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventist, Pentecostal, etc.I was once____fill in the blank. If someone gave false witness isn't it our duty to inform and prove the brother's doctrine wrong.
Am I my brother's keeper.
kenrch
May be their are children wanting to get off milk, but don't know how. Are we to deny them the meat of the word.
Jesus died for your sins. Some people hear that same message over and over.
Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
People hear this message their whole life.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,00:45) Hi david, I haven't read your post fully yet, but skimming through it I noticed your words:
Quote Do you t8, and the other people who don't quite believe what you believe, but reject the trinity and oppose organized religion have love among yourselves? There is really no “yourselves” to have love among. But I really do not think you understand that I and many others who do not hold to any worldly organisation as the platform for their faith, can and do fellowship with anyone who has true faith. That even includes people who belong to denominations such as yourself.
You see I fellowship not in the name of a denomination but in the name of my Lord. It is people who make up the body, it is not a particular denomination or cult. I would like to think that I see the heart of a person, not the outward appearance.
It boils down to this. Are you carnal minded or spirtual minded? If you are carnal, then you cannot understand spiritual things. If you cannot see the Body, but only a particular denomination as being relevant, then I would seriously have to question which mind you have. If you can see that the Body of Christ is an organisation whose head is Christ, and that this organisation is made up of saved people from all races, sexes, ages, cultures, and even denominations, then it could be said that you can see the Body of Christ. If however you only see a particular denomination as being valid, then you are not only carnal, but you do a dis-service to the Body and even the world. For how is the world to believe when they are told that this denomination is right and this one wrong.
Like I said before, it becomes a kind of lottery and only a lucky few end up choosing the right church. Of course this is foolish thinking, but what conclusion is the world to draw when Christians say “I am a follower of the Baptists”, and I am a “Catholic”, or I am a Jehovah Witness” and then quarrel among themselves about who is right.
Would it not be better to come out of her? It is the truth that sets us free, no denomination can set you free. All they can do is bind you up.
Amen t8 Amen!Really interesting to read peoples take on this. I would have to say that I am a little on the fence at present. I do find myself becoming less and less enamored with denominationalism though. To me the divisions are an obvious satanic influence. I recently read a book which brought this home to me. It's called “The Heavenly Man” and is an autobiography of a founding member of the underground church in China. The book recordes that in the initial stages of formation the members were in full unity, and signs and wonders were prevalent. Then as Bibles were smuggled in to the country some contained pamphlets inscribed with the doctrinal teachings of a particular western denomination. Division quickly ensued as some Chinese believers adhered to the doctrines and some didn't. Signs and wonders gradually dissipated as one division quickly followed another. Sadly this is probably the way it was always going to go, consistent with the sin curse, things go from a state of order to disorder. The second law of thermodynamics strikes again!
I don't, however, believe all denominations are equally bad. They all have doctrinal flaws – as do all men (bar One), for that matter, but some flaws will cost people their eternity and some won't. I think the seven letters to the seven churchs in Rev 2 & 3 bear this out. Some churches recieve commendations and rebukes, some only comendations, and some only rebukes. So I guess in judging whether or not to fellowship with one of them comes down to personally held biblical convictions that are 'uncompromisable', or perhaps I should say the doctrines that the Bible highlights as being vitally important.
As an aside, I don't believe message board “fellowship” is true fellowship. You must have transparency and accountability and neither are found online. After all almost everyone uses a handle (username), what does that tell you?!
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2006,20:14) So, would you consider someone who believes the trinity to be a believer?
To david,Yes I would if it wasn't the foundation of their faith.
You can still be on the true foundation and have incorrect doctrine and concepts. But if you are sitting on a different foundation then I certainly cannot pretend that such a person is on the true foundation.I am wary of those who come here and teach the Trinity even when they are shown scriptures to the contrary.
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2006,20:14) 2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-15
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?”So, would you consider someone who believes the trinity to be a believer?
Quote If you can see that the Body of Christ is an organisation whose head is Christ, and that this organisation is made up of saved people from all races, sexes, ages, cultures, and even denominations, then it could be said that you can see the Body of Christ.
I am with you except for the denomination part.
Do you believe that the Body of Christ is divided? It should not be divided.1 CORINTHIANS 1:10
“Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Denominations do not speak in agreement with one another. Hence, they are denominations. To say that there is one person with the right heart condition from one religion that believes one thing and there is another good hearted person from another religion that believes the opposite is to disregard the truth. If these people have the right heart, and are open to it, they will be found, they will know the truth, and they will come out of their opposing teachings. Either there is a trinity or there isn't. Either God burns people in hellfire forever or he doesn't.Quote Like I said before, it becomes a kind of lottery and only a lucky few end up choosing the right church.
It's not luck at all. Jehovah always gives a warning, and he is doing so this time as well. (Mat 24:14)
To david,Let me rephrase that. I believe that true Christians reside in and out of denominations just as the children of Israel were captives of Babylon and at times were free in their own land.
I am not saying that denominations form the Body of Christ, rather part of the Body of Christ is enslaved in Babylon, if you get my drift.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,07:58) I am wary of those who come here and teach the Trinity even when they are shown scriptures to the contrary.
Without wanting to be abrasive and confrontational t8 (perish the thought!!), you too have been shown scriptures that are contrary to what you believe about Yahshua.
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