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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,08:05) Let me rephrase that. I believe that true Christians reside in and out of denominations just as the children of Israel were captives of Babylon and at times were free in their own land. I am not saying that denominations form the Body of Christ, rather part of the Body of Christ is enslaved in Babylon, if you get my drift.
I agree with the first paragraph. I think there are basically two groups of people in denominational churches – church goers and followers of Christ. True Christians are simply those that have the Spirit of Christ:ROMANS 8:9
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.As for the “come out of her” theme that you (and others) continue to perpetuate, I have yet to see any proof of a link between Revelation 18:4 and current denominations. It appears to be all assumption and to my mind it could easily be a reference to a yet future ecumenical organisation, quite unique to any current organisation.
I agree with your words Is 1:18.
The last part about the link to “come out of her my people” is in reference to coming out of idolatory, that which the original Babylon was judged for. If I say “Come out of her” then I am saying to come out of idolatory.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,08:10) Such as teaching that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ? I am guilty as charged.
….here we go again…..ah well….MARK 12:29
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD [kurios] OUR GOD IS ONE LORD [kurios];Who is the “Lord” in this passage?
….here we go again…..
LORD (YHWH) is not the same word as lord in the New Testament. Did you know that YHWH (LORD) has a son?
If you disagree then probably best to disagree about it in the Trinity discussion.
You must be confused if Jesus is the only Lord (i.e., one Lord Jesus Christ as Paul taught).
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,08:33) I agree with your words Is 1:18. The last part about the link to “come out of her my people” is in reference to coming out of idolatory, that which the original Babylon was judged for. If I say “Come out of her” then I am saying to come out of idolatory.
Quote REVELATION 18:1-4
1After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.2And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
3″For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”
4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
How do you know that this is a reference to idolatory in general? Can you show me specifically that this is the case? Can you disprove that this is a reference to a yet future ecumenical organisation?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2006,08:37) ….here we go again….. LORD (YHWH) is not the same word as lord in the New Testament. Did you know that YHWH (LORD) has a son?
If you disagree then probably best to disagree about it in the Trinity discussion.
You must be confused if Jesus is the only Lord (i.e., one Lord Jesus Christ as Paul taught).
OK, see you in the trinity thread.Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2006,20:24) T8, let's say that you are exactly right. Let's go even further. Let's say that you have a complete understanding of the Bible and understand everything perfectly.
And as you're following Jesus command (Mat 28:19,20; 24:14) to preach and make disciples of people of all the nations, some actually start to believe what you say (from the Bible, of course.) And so you meet together and don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together as some do (Heb 10:24,25) and more and more people start attending, wanting to learn what you know. And what you know is correct, right? So, pretty soon, the group of fellowshipping grows. And grows.
At this point, do you say: “This is starting to look too much like we're organized,” and separate yourselves from them?Just curious.
david.
Hi david,First of I am the first to say that I have a lot to learn. I hope to be learning for all eternity and I am only decades in age at the moment.
Secondly if people believe what I teach regarding the true nature of God then I would assume that most believed it before I taught it and many do, simply because in reality there are many more people who believe these things than people I have spoken to about it. I am not so ignorant to think that I alone have the understanding and you have to come to me to get it.
But lets say your hypothesis regarding some kind of following based on what I teach arises, then such people would have the understanding that starting a denomination is wrong. In this case they would have to understand the truth that the Body of Christ predates the Jehovah Witnesses and even the Catholics. Simply put they would be left where the diciples of Christ were before they started following men who built things in their own name and caused a great falling away. They would also be able to fellowship with any other true believer anywhere and anytime. They wouldn't see the need to build systems that end up to be so big that they serve it instead of it serving them.
But lets say for argument sake that some kind of movement called say 'the tenomin8 shin' starts up based around what I teach. They shave all their hair off, wear say a red cape, and donate 10% of their worldly possessions to me. In that case if I were true to my own words, I should be the first to say that they have ears but cannot hear. For they would be doing the very thing that I told them not. Although I would weigh that up with how much money I received from their tithe. Ok that last sentence was a joke.
But this silly scenario in reality is exactly what happend regarding Christ. He said something like “My kingdom is not of this world, if it were I would have soldiers protecting me and a board of directors, and financial advisors etc. But then what do men do. They create kingdoms of this world with armies and directors complete with buildings and even with their own name or the founders name stamped on it. Worse still they compete with each other and say we are the true Church, or we are closer to the truth than the others. Some even think that members of their own denomination are brothers and other christians are more like cousins. Looking at a newspaper's religous advertising pages, you may see things like “Come to OUR Church”, or “we have something the others do not”, or maybe you would see “we have a brand new temple”. In short you would see them competing for your mighty dollar/tithe just as you see any worldly business compete in any other market.
Anyway, remember when Moses led God's people out of Egypt? Did they not moan and complain about it. I certainly expect to hear people moan and groan when they are led out of Babylon by those who God has called. I also expect that many would want to stay put just as they did in Sodom and Gomorrah.
In short, I teach that we are the Body and to not fall for the lie that a particular denomination is exclusively the Church. I also teach that the creeds of men and men's traditions are contrary to God's will for he wants us to build on the true foundation. If I am wrong regarding this, then correct me. I have ears to hear with and a heart after the truth. It would be in my interest to hear your correction if what you said was contary to my words yet scriptural and right.
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2006,20:15) Quote If I preach a denomination or try to start one up say the “Antidenomination denomination” then I too am guilty of division.
That's actually kind of funny. In my mind, perhaps only half jokingly, I often see you that way.
david,Maybe you are institutionalised to the point where you cannot see that which lies beyond that framework? Perhaps that is why you see me in that light?
But even the followers of Jesus were accused of being a cult. In reality however, they were championing the truth, and were not some worldy organisation with a name of their choosing. The Kingdom they represented was not of this world and was not setup like any worldly kingdom.
If I search for truth with all my heart and trust no denomination to be my provider of truth, is that somehow wrong? If I did trust a denomination as my provider of truth, then why would I need the Spirit of God? Of course in reality I would be trusting in man would I not?
At times as I read through these posts it seems that some are saying that unless you have all truth you cannot be saved (of course it's usually their version of it). We're all at various levels of truth and I agree with T8 we will learn for all eternity. I further believe that we will still never fully comprehend God.
It requires just a little bit of knowledge combined with a little bit of faith to be saved, do not be guilty of laying excess burden on fellow believers. No I'm not against the pursuit of truth (hence the reason I'm here) but we need to be careful that we're not making “the search for all truth” an idol and the goal by “which we must be saved” and we all learn at different paces.
God is patient and I believe in his perfect will, we would all be of one mind in unity, but He has allowed for His body to be split up as lights, even into the darkness of denominations, to reach all the more.
God is worthy of all praise!
Just to clarify by “excess burden” I refer to those like me who are less then brillant (down right dense by some accounts) and begin to feel that gaining knowledge is a “work” we must perform to be saved. Yet I lack the capabilities of many of you to learn from reading, it is the revelations from God (not the big future seeing type, but the small gains in understanding such as what a verse of scripture means, the same verse you've read a hundred times before). And yes I never read manuals either, I'm always amazed when someone can pick up a manual read it and know everything about the item that the manual was for, I've always been one to have to work it out as I go.
Unlike manuals, I have read the bible through many times, but it still takes lifes experiences to bring revelation of the scriptures to me. So be patient with us who are less then brillant, God is at work.
One last thing, sometimes I feel embarassed to include my mutterings with so many well written, fully documented, and easily understood, posts, but I do believe that this is all part of God's plan to bring the different parts of His body together with their different gifts.
Sometimes there is wisdom even in a child.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 25 2006,14:32) Just to clarify by “excess burden” I refer to those like me who are less then brillant (down right dense by some accounts) and begin to feel that gaining knowledge is a “work” we must perform to be saved. Yet I lack the capabilities of many of you to learn from reading, it is the revelations from God (not the big future seeing type, but the small gains in understanding such as what a verse of scripture means, the same verse you've read a hundred times before). And yes I never read manuals either, I'm always amazed when someone can pick up a manual read it and know everything about the item that the manual was for, I've always been one to have to work it out as I go. Unlike manuals, I have read the bible through many times, but it still takes lifes experiences to bring revelation of the scriptures to me. So be patient with us who are less then brillant, God is at work.
me too Seekingtruth,I can really relate to what you said. Like Jesus said, I thank you Father that you hide these things from the wise and reveal them to babes.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 25 2006,14:49) One last thing, sometimes I feel embarassed to include my mutterings with so many well written, fully documented, and easily understood, posts, but I do believe that this is all part of God's plan to bring the different parts of His body together with their different gifts. Sometimes there is wisdom even in a child.
amen brother,I admire your humility. I think that is something we all need to imitate.
I cannot take credit even for any humility I might have. God in his mercy has given me a small revelation of who He is and what I am. Knowing this, only in part, is enough to keep things in perspective. All that I have and what I am is from God, the only thing I can even take partial credit in was my choice to accept and follow Him (and He was the one who made even that possible).
This is just one more small reason that God is worthy of all praise!
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,04:16) I cannot take credit even for any humility I might have. God in his mercy has given me a small revelation of who He is and what I am. Knowing this, only in part, is enough to keep things in perspective. All that I have and what I am is from God, the only thing I can even take partial credit in was my choice to accept and follow Him (and He was the one who made even that possible). This is just one more small reason that God is worthy of all praise!
Praise God for you!Your posts are refreshing and bear fruit.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.Gods ways are not the worlds ways, the world thinks submissiveness and servant hood is presented as a sign of weakness. Scripture says quite the opposite.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.Those that humble themselves to make others greater or those that make themselves lesser does not imply they are not equal to others.
To Is 1:18,
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2006,03:40) How do you know that this is a reference to idolatory in general? Can you show me specifically that this is the case? Can you disprove that this is a reference to a yet future ecumenical organisation?
I cannot be sure that idolatory is exclusively Babylon. But I am sure that God judged Babylon for their idolatory/false gods. So I have no problem telling people to come out of her (depart from her influence) lest they become judged with her. For surely God will judge idolatory in all it's forms. He will particulary judge idolatory that pretends to be of YHWH, if only to protect his own name.Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,09:49) One last thing, sometimes I feel embarassed to include my mutterings with so many well written, fully documented, and easily understood, posts, but I do believe that this is all part of God's plan to bring the different parts of His body together with their different gifts. Sometimes there is wisdom even in a child.
Amen seekingtruth.You show respect and so you will be given respect.
We also know that the greatest in the Kingdom of God is like a child and that God reveals his truth to such people.
He also cuts of the proud, so that they do not even realise when they have become foolish.
I wish to share a denominational testimony: Many years ago, new in Christ, and wanting to lead a friend to the Lord, I brought him to church. There was a light lunch after the service and I was very excited because my friend would have an opportunity to fellowship with more mature Christians but, rather than speak of Christ, he was preached to about how the Catholic church was not a church of God. I drove him home that night and he appeared more confused than enlightened. I asked him to pray and ask God. This was his prayer, “God, if you are out there could you please let me know. I've searched you but, I have not found you. And could you please let me know if the Catholic church, is NOT a church of God?” In the morning, three minutes before his alarm went off, he awoke and this is what he heard, “My son, you needn't search for me, for you have found me. Concern yourself not with the sins of your church but, that your heart is right with me.”
“All that the Father has given me shall come onto me, and I shall in no ways cast them out, my sheep here my voice and they will come.”
Quote I believe that we should keep the forum as is. Let people judge us by our words and not by titles. In time past had I met David I would not have given him the time of day. Yes I would of debated etc, but never would of taken him seriously because of his denomination. Being on this forum helped me to meet him and others before I was introduced to titles, and it has been an enjoyable experience. (No offense intended David)
I think that's a compliment. Thanks.
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