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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,09:09) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:52) Quote (gollamudi @ June 20 2008,06:33) So they can move out and act as demons?
“tartarus”…is not a place…it is a “state of being”…so yes…as was illustrated by Satans answer to God in Job about where he came from…”from wondering about and moving to and fro upon the earth”…Again…notice the etymology of the word demon
demon
1387, from L. dæmon “spirit,” from Gk. daimon (gen. daimonos) “lesser god, guiding spirit, tutelary deity,” (sometimes including souls of the dead), used (with daimonion) in Christian Gk. translations and Vulgate for “god of the heathen” and “unclean spirit.” Jewish authors earlier had employed the Gk. word in this sense, using it to render shedim “lords, idols” in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in O.E., feend or deuil in M.E. The original mythological sense is sometimes written dæmon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates (1387) was a daimonion, a “divine principle or inward oracle.” His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Beta Persei (in Ar. Algol “the Demon”) so called because it visibly varies in brightness every three days. Fem. form demoness first attested 1638. Demonic is from 1662; demonize is from 1821.Demons, unclean spirits, fallen angels= all the same thing
Again thats why they believe and shudder
Hi DK,
Satan was never chained like the other angels.
He has ever been allowed to wander between earth and heaven.
Hey Nick…Job 1:6,7… 6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”According to scripture he can not enter into heaven anymore like he did in Job…”Down the great dragon was hurled”….”I saw satan fall like a flash of lightning from heaven”
Hi DK,
That is prophetic of course, the last evil days when he is confined to earth before his incarceration for 1000 years.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,09:23) Hi DK,
That is prophetic of course, the last evil days when he is confined to earth before his incarceration for 1000 years.
your interpretation…I happen to disagreeHi DK,
Christ said he SAW him falling.
But Paul warned us about spiritual powers of wickedness on high.Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.Satan is their leader. Could he be less than them?
DK……would that make Peter their leader, Jesus called Him Satan. But if you look it up the word Satan means Advisory. An advisory is anyone who resists you. God himself can be an advisory at times. He said go tell them i am against them.
I believe more and more Good is an advisory of evil and evil is an advisory of Good. And when it say we fight against wickedness in high places i think thats referring to the rich and powerful who use the poor and need of this world for there personnel gain like these gas companies jacking up the prices and making more profits them they ever did. And all the while our leaders who are supposed to represent God's way to the people, do nothing about, I think evil works as an advisory against good everywhere in this world.
IMO………gene
Hi GB,
EPH 6
Chapter 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places [2032]Number 2032
Transliteration:
epouranios {ep-oo-ran'-ee-os}
Word Origin:
from 1909 and 3772
TDNT:
5:538,736
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
heavenly 16, celestial 2, in heaven 1, high 1Total: 20
Definition:
existing in heaven
things that take place in heaven
the heavenly regions
heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
the lower heavens, of the stars
the heavens, of the clouds
the heavenly temple or sanctuary
of heavenly origin or natureQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,11:14) Hi GB, EPH 6
Chapter 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places [2032]Number 2032
Transliteration:
epouranios {ep-oo-ran'-ee-os}
Word Origin:
from 1909 and 3772
TDNT:
5:538,736
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
heavenly 16, celestial 2, in heaven 1, high 1Total: 20
Definition:
existing in heaven
things that take place in heaven
the heavenly regions
heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
the lower heavens, of the stars
the heavens, of the clouds
the heavenly temple or sanctuary
of heavenly origin or nature
This I agree with…..I qouted this scripture earlierWhat is considered a demon often changes depending upon our definitions and frame of reference. The Greek term Daimon, originally indicated “genius” or “spirit,”, in ancient times these were viewed as any spirit of non-divine status, thus they could be good, evil or neutral. This would have included a large number of what would be termed elementals or fey, undines, gnomes, sylphs, salamanders. Later especially in the middle ages the term demon now referred almost exclusively to beings of a malevolent nature and also included many older pagan (especially those of a middle eastern lineage) gods who were now proclaimed to have been demons (now explained as fallen angels or nephilim) masquerading as divinities. In Jewish lore they are sometimes explained as being the progeny of Lilith, believed by some to be Adam's first wife. In Kabballah they would be known as the Qlippoth or empty shells that came about during creation. In this belief, God created the universe through 10 succesive eminations or sepherah and the tempory imbalance between successive eminations created a hollow space of chaos and thus arose evil forces which became personalized through time as demonic entitites. The quran (as well as many european mystical text) say that King Solomon used Jinns to help build his temple, “And to Solomon the wind; its morning course was a month's journey, and its evening course was a month's journey. And We made the Fount of Molten Brass to flow for him. And of the jinn, some worked before him by the leave of his Lord; and such of them as swerved away from Our commandment, We would let them taste the chastisement of the Blaze; fashioning for him whatsoever he would — places of worship, statues, porringers like water-troughs, and anchored cooking-pots. 'Labour, O House of David, in thankfulness; for few indeed are those that are thankful among My servants.' And when We decreed that he should die, naught indicated to them that he was dead but the Beast of the Earth devouring his staff; and when he fell down, the jinn saw clearly that, had they only known the Unseen, they would not have continued in the humbling chastisement.” S. 34:12-14
Hi,
Of course we refer to the teachings of Jesus about demons \ evil spirits.
His work involved a lot of dealings with them as any look at Mark will show.Hi cato,
I think you studied more philosophy than any body in this forum. Do you mean to say God created this universe in many phases as you quote He created demons separately?Well if we look at the Qabbalah and many related mystical sources there are 4 planes of being:
Atziluth the realm of causes
Briah the realm of ideas
Yetzirah the realm of formation
Assiah the realm of effect
Man evidently exists at all levels simultaneously, what we refer as angels exist on the upper two and animals only the lower two at least that's the theory. Each level was created by ten succesive eminations (known as the tree of life), when we overlay the 4 trees, we have what they refer to as Jacob's ladder.As far as evil and the demonic, the word “qlippah” or “klippah” (plural “qlippoth”) means “shell” or “husk”. “The duality between the container and the contained is one of the most important in Kabbalistic explanations of the creative moment. The word “qlippah” is an extension of this metaphor. A qlippah is also a covering or a container, and as each sephira acts as a shell or covering to the sephira preceding it in the order of emanation, in a technical sense we can say the qlippoth are innate to the Tree of Life. Cut a slice through a tree and one can see the growth rings, with the bark on the outside. The Tree of Life has 10 concentric rings, and sometimes the qlippah is equated to the bark. The word is commonly used to refer to a covering which contains no light: that is, an empty shell, a dead husk.
It is also the case that the qlippoth appear in Kabbalah as demonic powers of evil, and in trying to disentangle the various uses of the word it becomes clear that there is an almost continuous spectrum of opinion, varying from the technical use where the word hardly differs from the word “form”, to the most anthropomorphic sense, where the qlippoth are evil demonesses in a demonic hierarchy responsible for all the evil in the world.”
(Quoted from a larger article by Colin Low)That is just one explanation based on general Qaballah and I did it poor justice as it is a complex subject and not easy to write a brief synopsis of. I could go through some other theories Theosophie etc., but need to go, perhaps another time. Many of these theories are quite fascinating.
WoW! there is so much depth in this theory. Oh! God I can't get even the tail from it.
But thanks to you, cato.Quote (dirtyknections @ June 19 2008,14:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,09:09) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 20 2008,07:52) Quote (gollamudi @ June 20 2008,06:33) So they can move out and act as demons?
“tartarus”…is not a place…it is a “state of being”…so yes…as was illustrated by Satans answer to God in Job about where he came from…”from wondering about and moving to and fro upon the earth”…Again…notice the etymology of the word demon
demon
1387, from L. dæmon “spirit,” from Gk. daimon (gen. daimonos) “lesser god, guiding spirit, tutelary deity,” (sometimes including souls of the dead), used (with daimonion) in Christian Gk. translations and Vulgate for “god of the heathen” and “unclean spirit.” Jewish authors earlier had employed the Gk. word in this sense, using it to render shedim “lords, idols” in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii.31 has daimones, translated as deofol in O.E., feend or deuil in M.E. The original mythological sense is sometimes written dæmon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates (1387) was a daimonion, a “divine principle or inward oracle.” His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Beta Persei (in Ar. Algol “the Demon”) so called because it visibly varies in brightness every three days. Fem. form demoness first attested 1638. Demonic is from 1662; demonize is from 1821.Demons, unclean spirits, fallen angels= all the same thing
Again thats why they believe and shudder
Hi DK,
Satan was never chained like the other angels.
He has ever been allowed to wander between earth and heaven.
Hey Nick…Job 1:6,7… 6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
Bummer, I have been really busy lately and haven't had time to be responding on here. I have less then a week before the whole family is going on another trip, so hopefully I can get in on some good discussion before I go!I believe that the 'Sons of God' in Job are God's people, the same 'Sons of God' in Genesis 6.
These men are going to present themselves to the Lord, which is what was meant when men were going to go speak to the appointed priest and the priest spoke on behalf of the Lord.
The adversary, is a MAN, who is a vagabond (walking to and fro on the LAND) and is jealous of Job and wants to stir up trouble. God allows whatever this man wishes upon Job to come true.
If the story of fallen angels were true and the serpent in the Garden represented a manipulating fallen angel now no longer called God’s messenger but called Satan and his followers are now called devils and demons, then in Genesis 6, the ‘Son’s of God’ would not be called 'Son’s of God' if they were indeed fallen angels, would they, but rather they would have been called by something else. I believe it is absurd to believe that the bible is going to refer to ‘the sons of God’ as representing the Devil and his minions.
Genesis 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Son’s of God stand for those that ARE FOLLOWING God, rather they be humans or angels. Genesis 6 shows in every instance that man is wicked because of man.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “ I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
When the ‘sons of God’, men who followed the Lord, saw the beautiful daughters of wicked men they were tempted by their fleshly desires and married them. It did not take long for the daughters of men to corrupt the Sons of God, for –
Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, ” My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Quote (Cato @ June 20 2008,06:57) What is considered a demon often changes depending upon our definitions and frame of reference. The Greek term Daimon, originally indicated “genius” or “spirit,”, in ancient times these were viewed as any spirit of non-divine status, thus they could be good, evil or neutral. This would have included a large number of what would be termed elementals or fey, undines, gnomes, sylphs, salamanders. Later especially in the middle ages the term demon now referred almost exclusively to beings of a malevolent nature and also included many older pagan (especially those of a middle eastern lineage) gods who were now proclaimed to have been demons (now explained as fallen angels or nephilim) masquerading as divinities. In Jewish lore they are sometimes explained as being the progeny of Lilith, believed by some to be Adam's first wife. In Kabballah they would be known as the Qlippoth or empty shells that came about during creation. In this belief, God created the universe through 10 succesive eminations or sepherah and the tempory imbalance between successive eminations created a hollow space of chaos and thus arose evil forces which became personalized through time as demonic entitites. The quran (as well as many european mystical text) say that King Solomon used Jinns to help build his temple, “And to Solomon the wind; its morning course was a month's journey, and its evening course was a month's journey. And We made the Fount of Molten Brass to flow for him. And of the jinn, some worked before him by the leave of his Lord; and such of them as swerved away from Our commandment, We would let them taste the chastisement of the Blaze; fashioning for him whatsoever he would — places of worship, statues, porringers like water-troughs, and anchored cooking-pots. 'Labour, O House of David, in thankfulness; for few indeed are those that are thankful among My servants.' And when We decreed that he should die, naught indicated to them that he was dead but the Beast of the Earth devouring his staff; and when he fell down, the jinn saw clearly that, had they only known the Unseen, they would not have continued in the humbling chastisement.” S. 34:12-14
I too have read some stuff on the word daimon.I believe it is very important to study what the pagans believed on this subject, since much of the 'Christian' doctrine of today is the result of converted pagans, who instead of having God Almighty guiding them in understanding the scriptures they had their previous held beliefs.
De 32:17 – They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
Another word for false gods are demons. Demons represent the delusions of man. We are told that the false gods are not real and that they have no power. Yah sends curses to those who continue to believe in these false gods.
Jeremiah 10:5 Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do good. 6 There is none like you, O Lord; you are great, and your name is great in might.
10 But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11 Thus shall you say to them: The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.
14 Everyone is stupid and without knowledge; goldsmiths are all put to shame by their idols; for their images are false, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
Re 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Ps 4:2 – How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Mt 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Beelzebub represents a false god, whom the Jews seem to believe had actual powers.
These powers they have attributed to being from fallen angels. We know from the bible however that these gods actually don’t have any powers at all. Yah alone creates curses and darkness upon man.
So then the big question is why would the authors of the New Testament use the term, ‘possessed by a demon?’ Well first and foremost the word demon did not in and of itself mean fallen angel. The word demon stood for an unknown supernatural force that many people had many different ideas about. Knowing what we are told in the Old Testament, it should be clear as to the supernatural force that is causing such cursing. I believe the authors used the term 'possessed by a demon', not to reveal to us that false gods did indeed have powers and those powers came from fallen angels as some of the Jews believed, but they used it to identify the type of infliction the person had. Like I said there were many different ideas as to the source of the infliction, but everyone knew what was meant in regards to the TYPE of infliction, which was insanity coupled with other possible physical problems such as blindness and deafness.
Deuteronomy 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
De 28:20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.
27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
This description of Yah’s infliction on man is exactly what we see with the demon possessed people in the New Testament.
Diseases and illnesses have been inflicted by Yah as punishment to sinners, which Yah has allowed to be passed down from generation to generation, often growing worse in affliction. These inflictions can as well be called 'evil spirits' coming from God. Yehsua however, comes and heals people who have inherited their ancestors curses.
Here we see what Yah does to Nebuchadnezzar Da 4:16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.
When we look at the broad term of what it meant to be demon possessed, which meant to be inflicted by an UNKOWN evil force, I believe it is easy when we keep to scripture rather then following the 'traditions of men', whether they be the traditions of Jews who have given into pagan beliefs of good and evil, or the traditions of early Christians those converted pagans, we can discern the truth, that Yeshua was healing mentally ill people.
While I agree that most often people, especially in the past, mistook mental illness for demonic possession, how do you explain Mathew 8 as scripture without saying the authors were mistaken or exagerated? If it were a mere case of mental illness why the bit about the pigs? I myself find the Bible sometimes dubious and often allegorical, but since you are appealing to folks to follow scripture and not pagan traditions I would be interested in your explanation as to how mental illness was transferred to the pigs.
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