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Lu……….You have the wrong Feast it was at the passover or the beginning of the feast of unleavened bread. where that happened, and even if it was the Feast of Tabernacles the would put Jesus berth in February or March nowhere around December, any way you are figuring it, your DEC 25 date is no where around it his berth date. Don't go to a trinitarian Source to prove a trinitarian date would be my best advice to you.
peace and love…………………………………………..gene
Gene…buddy,
Look at this info and the chart as to when Zacharias division would be serving and read the explanation. Remember to count six months from the feast to get the approximate conception of Jesus and then add nine months…that would be 15 months from the feast.IV. Abijah and the Conception of John
It is now possible to calculate when the division of Abijah served during the period when John was conceived. Jesus was born before Herod died on November 27, 4 BCE. This was at least nine months plus five and a half months after Zacharias saw the angel while serving during the division of Abijah. The latest possible date for John's conception was in September of 5 BCE. The dates the division of Abijah served for the few years before that time are given here in Chart XIV.
Chart XIV
Service of the Division of Abijah
8-5 BCEDivision of
Abijah Served Conception of John Conception of Jesus Birth of Jesus
5, Sept. 3-10 Sep. 10 Feb. 25 Nov. 25, 4
5, March 19-26 Mar. 26 Sep. 11 June 11, 4
6, Oct. 3-10 Oct. 10 Mar. 25 Dec. 25, 5
6, April 18-25 Apr. 25 Oct. 10 July 10, 5
7, Nov. 1-8 Nov. 8 Apr. 23 Jan. 23, 5
7, May 17-24 May 24 Nov. 8 Aug. 8, 6
7, Jan. 18-25 Jan. 25 July 10 Apr. 10, 6
8, Aug. 3-10 Aug. 10 Jan. 25 Oct. 25, 7These are possible dates for the week in which Gabriel confronted Zacharias.17 When this occurred, “the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside.” (Luke 1:10) The “whole multitude” would only have been gathered at one of the three required feasts, at Passover, Pentecost or the Feast of Tabernacles. It would appear that just before John's conception that the “appointed order” of the division of Abijah coincided with one of these feasts. The only feast that overlapped any of the above dates is the Feast of Tabernacles in 6 BCE, which fell between September 29 and October 5. During these festivals the priests of the appointed order of the division offered the daily offerings (Sukkah 55b), and this was done by lots.18 If Zacharias burned incense during the first few days of his division, then the “whole multitude,” would have still been at the festival. The week of October 3 to October 10 of 6 BCE is likely the division of Abijah after which John the Baptist was conceived.
Zacharias no doubt hurried home with excitement after sunset on October 10. He lived nearby in the “hill country, a city of Judah.” (Luke 1:39) Since Elizabeth was previously barren, it is not necessary to consider a normal fertility cycle. Just as Mary was later immediately pregnant with Jesus after the Annunciation, it is also expected that the miracle of God was not here delayed. Elizabeth likely became pregnant with John the evening of October 10, 6 BCE.
Jesus was conceived during the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. After the conception of Jesus, Mary then came to Elizabeth, stayed three months and left before John was born. Jesus was thus conceived about five and a half months after John, as established in the last chapter. The sixth inclusive month of Elizabeth's pregnancy began about March 10, 5 BCE, and the middle of that lunar month was about March 25. This is the traditional day for the Annunciation, or conception of Jesus.
Nine months later was December 25, 5 BCE. This is back to Chrysostom's date for the birth of Jesus by also beginning with the priestly duties of Zacharias.
V. Conclusion
Based on the division of Jehoiarib having been on duty during the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, it is possible to establish the weeks in which the division of Abijah served during the time of Zacharias. When Zacharias burned incense the “whole multitude” were outside in prayer. It is expected that such a multitude would only be present at one of the three required feasts. In 6 BCE the Feast of Tabernacles overlapped the regular serving of the division of Abijah. It would be at this time that the angel Gabriel appeared to Zacharias. If Elizabeth became pregnant with John the Baptist shortly after Zacharias returned home, then John was conceived about October 10, 6 BCE. The Annunciation of the conception of Jesus followed about five and a half months later, or about March 25, 5 BCE. Jesus was then born nine month later, about December 25, 5 BCE.
From: http://doig.net/NTC07.htm
Go to the site to see the chart more clearly. I couldn't figure how to get the chart to copy correctly, sorry.
God bless,
KathiLu ……Haven't you notices it only works with one of there Eight Perpetuals. You can also understand that his berth was a holy day becasue all the people cam to Jerusalem for a senses and that is why there was not room at the end for Mary and Joesph, this senses was conducted at a time of a Holy Day event , So Jesus had to be Borne on one of these day , And there Is No Jewish Holy day in December that I know of. And another thing is that the Sheppard were still in the Mountains tending their sheep but in winter they would being them in becasue it was to cold for the Shepard's to abide in the fields.
I still believe Jesus was born sometime in August or Sept at the feast of Tabernacles becasue their crop were in and they had Money and could pay their taxes and be counted as well during that time of the year. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………………gene
Hi Gene,
you said:
Quote Haven't you notices it only works with one of there Eight Perpetuals. It only had to work for one of the options since He was only born by Mary once. Did you know that the Chanukah festival is in December. Read this in regards to your concern:
II. The Winter Nativity
An ongoing objection to a December 25 nativity has been that this date fell in the winter. The objection is twofold, and related to “shepherds staying out in the fields, and keeping watch over their flock by night.” (Luke 2:8) First, it has been argued, the sheep were brought in from the wilderness and kept in corrals, or sheepfolds, during the winter, and not out grazing. Second, the only time that shepherds watched their flocks at night was during and after lambing, in the spring and early summer. Thus, Jesus could not have been born in the winter.1 Such arguments are far from conclusive against a winter nativity.
First, sheep would have been found in the fields. It could have been a mild winter. The average December temperatures at Jerusalem are 45-59o F., comparable to Houston or San Francisco, but with less rain. The night temperatures are lower. Rainfall averages 3-4 inches, comparable to Athens or Rome, with occasional light snow. By the end of December the first grass can be sprouting from early rains. Poor shepherds would have had their flocks out to glean the first fodder from the rains. Also, semi-nomads will often leave a belt of grass un-grazed around permanent winter settlements during summer to provide winter fodder.2 Jewish shepherds may have practiced such in earlier days. The sheep would not necessarily have been kept under cover. Un-corralled sheep would have to be watched at night, whether at lambing, or any other time of the year. Sheep were brought in from the wilderness during the winter, and these flocks could be found in the area of Bethlehem/Jerusalem. The presence of flocks around Bethlehem may indeed indicate that it was winter. The Mishna records that cattle, including sheep, were around Jerusalem, including Bethlehem, year-round [Added Commentary: This passage does not specify any time of year but only the disposition of stray cattle/sheep found near Jerusalem.] .3 Many of these animals were required for the daily sacrifices at the Temple, and they were always available. There also would be a large daily requirement for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.4 The presence of sheep in the fields around Bethlehem in the early evening of December 25, 5 BCE would be expected.
Added Comment: During Solomon's time his court daily consumed 100 sheep (1 Kings 4:23). The daily demand would have been greater from Herod's court and military, Temple sacrifices, and increased population. Jerusalem would have been a sheep magnet 12 months of the year, with increased demand during festivals.
There is often the belief that the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds at night. However, it is more likely that Luke mentioned this to explain why the shepherds were camped out, not when the angel announced, “Today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” (Luke 2:11) It appears that Jesus was born during the day, and the shepherds announced His birth that same day. If the angel's announcement was at night this would confirm sunrise to sunrise reckoning for a day in Scripture; if it were evening and the angel used sunset reckoning for the day he would have used a word such as “yesterday.” It is likely that Jesus' birth and the visit of the shepherds occurred during the same daylight period.
Added Comment: The inhabitants of Jerusalem required a large number sheep year round, both for Temple sacrifice and consumption. In Herod's Jerusalem the population was about 40,000 (Broshi, Magen, “Estimating the Population of Ancient Jerusalem,” Biblical Archaeology Society, 4:02, June 1978). The quantity of animals eaten would increase for a feast, both for the locals and the influx of pilgrims. You do the math. In the absence of a blizzard, shepherds and their flocks would have been converging every day on the markets in Jerusalem. The shepherds who saw the star at Bethlehem, a clear night, would have been on their way to Jerusalem, a distance of only five miles. Perhaps they could get a better price from the pilgrims who were there for the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah).
from here: http://doig.net/NTC09.htm
Gene,
Bethlehem is about six miles from Jerusalem from what I read on the internet. Also, remember that Jesus was in Jerusalem in the winter for the Feast of the Dedication (Chanukah).John 10:22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
Take care,
KathiLu…….Notice all the would have been and could have been and so forth to these false conclusions but that fact are different . I feel you are just buying into what you want thing to say to meet you belief system of religion as many do here also even me . But what i have seen of you posted people make no common sense to me at all. Those Christmas day and Easter day are pure Pagan in origin and still are even there names are Pagan and deal with the solace and equinox of Pagan religious ceremonies and GOG hated their feast day and commanded us not to observe them and Christmas is One of them, as Spoken of in Scripture. But you can find many people that that agree with you that is obvious becasue Nearly all Christendom celebrates them. LU they are and have their origin in pagan worship. I am sorry you don't see that. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………..gene
Gene,
you said:
Quote You can also understand that his berth was a holy day becasue all the people cam to Jerusalem for a senses and that is why there was not room at the end for Mary and Joesph, this senses was conducted at a time of a Holy Day event , So Jesus had to be Borne on one of these day , And there Is No Jewish Holy day in December that I know of. Something that just occurred to me and needs further clarification, but if the people were in Jerusalem celebrating the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) then they wouldn't be in the inn but in a temporary shelter, that is the point of the booth.
Lev 23:41‘You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42‘You shall live in booths for seven days; all the native-born in Israel shall live in booths, 43so that your generations may know that I had the sons of Israel live in booths when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’” 44So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD.
Quote Notice all the would have been and could have been and so forth to these false conclusions but that fact are different . What facts are different? Remember facts are not opinions. I believe that what I have given you are facts. You did not seem to know of a second temple service for Zacharias during the year and you also did not know of a feast in December. Obviously you have not had all the facts yet you immediately disregard them.
You seem to base what you think on opinion of GOG and men, not on scripture.Can you show me that there wasn't a second temple service for Zacharias, or that Chanakuh was not celebrated in December, or that people stayed in an inn as a 'booth' for the Feast of Tabernacles?
Then there is this article from Wikipedia about the origin of Sol Invictus where it is denied that Sol Invictus was celebrated before the feast of Christmas.
Sol Invictus (“Invincible Sun”) was the official sun god of the later Roman Empire. In 274 the Roman emperor Aurelian made it an official cult alongside the traditional Roman cults. Scholars disagree whether the new deity was a refoundation of the ancient Latin cult of Sol,[1] a revival of the cult of Elagabalus[2] or completely new.[3] The god was favored by emperors after Aurelian and appeared on their coins until Constantine.[4] The last inscription referring to Sol Invictus dates to 387 AD[5] and there were enough devotees in the 5th century that Augustine found it necessary to preach against them.[6] Unresearched opinion has claimed that the December 25 date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the Roman festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or “Birthday of Sol Invictus.”[7] but research reveals that the Feast of Christmas was instituted well before Sol Invictus, and that the choice of date rested on a perfect nine months after the feast of the Annunciation, 25th March[8]
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus
Quote Unresearched opinion has claimed that the December 25 date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the Roman festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or “Birthday of Sol Invictus.”[7] but research reveals that the Feast of Christmas was instituted well before Sol Invictus, and that the choice of date rested on a perfect nine months after the feast of the Annunciation, 25th March[8] Hi LU.
See, this is what you need to show for us to believe you. We just now need the “research” that is said to reveal it.
(I haven't spent very much time on the computer in the last few days, nor this thread. I will read this whole thread, but right now, just no time. If you've already been discussing that research, I'm sorry.)
Some info here:
Of course, the date of Christmas is not particularly important in the origins of Christianity, and has no bearing on Christian theology. It is worth noting, however, that the feast of the birthday of the sun, while definitely Pagan, wasn't pre-Christian. It was only established in 274 CE by the emperor Aurelian (Hutton, p. 1). Even more significant, the most important feast day of Sol Invictus wasn't even on December 25th, but rather took place in October (Hutton, p. 2). All in all, then the idea that Christians took the date of Christmas from Mithraism is shaky at best, and insignificant to boot.
from here: http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm
More info:
Aurelian strengthened the position of the Sun god, Sol (Invictus) or Oriens, as the main divinity of the Roman pantheon. His intention was to give to all the peoples of the Empire, civilian or soldiers, easterners or westerners, a single god they could believe in without betraying their own gods. The center of the cult was a new temple, built in 271 in Campus Agrippae in Rome, with great decorations financed by the spoils of the Palmyrene Empire.Aurelian did not persecute other religions. However, during his short rule, he seemed to follow the principle of “one god, one empire”, that was later adopted to a full extent by Constantine. On some coins, he appears with the title deus et dominus natus (“God and born ruler”), also later adopted by Diocletian. Lactantius argued that Aurelian would have outlawed all the other gods if he had had enough time.
[edit]from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian
Hippolytus acknowledges Dec. 25th as the birthday of Christ:
Hippolytus in his Commentary on Daniel 4.23.3 says:
For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, eight days before the kalends of January [December 25th], the 4th day of the week [Wednesday], while Augustus was in his forty-second year, [2 or 3BC] but from Adam five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty third year, 8 days before the kalends of April [March 25th], the Day of Preparation, the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar [29 or 30 AD], while Rufus and Roubellion and Gaius Caesar, for the 4th time, and Gaius Cestius Saturninus were Consuls.
from here: http://chronicon.net/blog….-christ
A little about Hippolytus:
Hippolytus (170 – 235) was the most important 3rd-century theologian in the Christian Church in Rome,[2] where he was probably born.[3] Photios I of Constantinople describes him in his Bibliotheca (cod. 121) as a disciple of Irenaeus, who was said to be a disciple of Polycarp, and from the context of this passage it is supposed that he suggested that Hippolytus himself so styled himself. However, this assertion is doubtful.from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome#Writings
So Hippolytus wrote about the birth as Dec. 25th before Aurelian made the sun god the main divinity of the Roman pantheon. Others were making guesses as to the birthdate of Christ too.
For instance Clement (c.150 – c. 215) has a date for Christ's birth:
In an attempt to demonstrate the primacy of Moses, Clement gives an extended chronology of the world, wherein he dates the birth of Christ to 25 April or May, 4-2 B.C., and the creation of the world to 5592 B.C. The books ends with a discussion on the origin of languages and the possibility of a Jewish influence on Plato.[47]from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria
Christs birthday is really quite easy to figure out.
He was baptized when he was 30 years old, immediately after his baptism he began his ministry, which lasted 3 and a half years.
He died in April, Passover, so ad 6 month and you have the time of his birth.Georg
It is interesting that here, most want the church to be wrong about Christmas. What I have shown here is:
1. Zacharias served in the temple in the fall as well as the Spring and Elisabeth could have been six months pregnant around March 25th.
2. The Dec. 25th date was arrived at aside from the sun god and before Constantine came along.
3. Shephards could have very well of been shepharding their flocks in December because their winter is not very hard, it might snow 1 day in December. Sheep were in high demand year round near Jerusalem (for food and for the sacrifices) which is 6 miles from Bethlehem.
4. People here think that it was the Feast of Tabernacle time when Jesus was born and that is why there was no room at the inn. However, at this feast, people made booths to stay in. That was the major distinction of the feast. Also, there is no mention of Passover when Zacharias saw the angel and there was no mention of any Jewish feast event taking place when Jesus was born. There was a census and that is why there was no room in the inn.
I believe that the church chose Dec. 25th because it was a very likely possibility of the actual birth date.
Here is an extra-Biblical account saying that the Roman census tells of a Dec. 25th birth:
The extrabiblical evidence
St. John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.), whose status in eastern Orthodoxy is comparable to that of Augustine in western Roman Catholicism, argued strongly for a Dec. 25 birthdate because of the course of Zacharias’ priestly service. But he also based his conclusion on the findings of Pope Julius. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386 A.D.) had asked Pope Julius to ascertain the date of Christ’s birth “from the census documents brought by Titus to Rome” after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Julius then determined the date of Christ’s birth to be Dec. 25.
Julius, Cyril and Chrysostom were not alone in their reliance upon the census documents. Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.), in a detailed statement of the Christian faith addressed to Emperor Marcus Aurelius, stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem “as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing.” (Apology, I, 34). Likewise, Tertullian (160-250 A.D.) wrote of “the census of Augustus – that most faithful witness of the Lord’s nativity, kept in the archives of Rome” Contra Marcion, Book 4, 7).
from here:
http://www.wnd.com/2009/12/119886/Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2012,13:27) Gene, you said:
Quote You can also understand that his berth was a holy day becasue all the people cam to Jerusalem for a senses and that is why there was not room at the end for Mary and Joesph, this senses was conducted at a time of a Holy Day event , So Jesus had to be Borne on one of these day , And there Is No Jewish Holy day in December that I know of. Something that just occurred to me and needs further clarification, but if the people were in Jerusalem celebrating the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) then they wouldn't be in the inn but in a temporary shelter, that is the point of the booth.
Lev 23:41‘You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42‘You shall live in booths for seven days; all the native-born in Israel shall live in booths, 43so that your generations may know that I had the sons of Israel live in booths when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’” 44So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD.
Quote Notice all the would have been and could have been and so forth to these false conclusions but that fact are different . What facts are different? Remember facts are not opinions. I believe that what I have given you are facts. You did not seem to know of a second temple service for Zacharias during the year and you also did not know of a feast in December. Obviously you have not had all the facts yet you immediately disregard them.
You seem to base what you think on opinion of GOG and men, not on scripture.Can you show me that there wasn't a second temple service for Zacharias, or that Chanakuh was not celebrated in December, or that people stayed in an inn as a 'booth' for the Feast of Tabernacles?
Bump for GeneBecause of my upbringing, I grew up not celebrating Christmas for the most part.
When I began my walk with Christ, I thought that maybe perhaps doing the whole Christmas thing was ok. But the more I thought about it, the more I felt that it wasn’t quite right.
Not only do people of the Christian faith celebrate Christmas, but so do Jews and atheists! I can guess there are wiccans that celebrate, as well. My point is that this holiday is not of God. Christmas is a holiday of the world. The world rejects God’s people (believers of Christ), yet for the most part embraces this so- called Christian holiday. Doesn’t that seem odd to you?
The truth is that even Christians spend more energy talking about Santa and his elves than they do about Christ. The greed and ruthlessness, when shopping for gifts during this holiday, is off the charts! Christmas time ends up making some feel bad because they can’t afford as much as others. Lots of “Christians” elaborately decorate their houses and yards – where exactly is humbleness in this whole process? Looks like boasting and bad fruit, if you ask me…
My final deduction of the holiday is that it is nothing more than a cleverly disguised mockery of God and Christ and that most of the Church are guilty of participating in this mockery, because they know how little of a part the true Gospel of Christ plays in this whole thing. It seems that most of the Church are like a bunch of crows that get fascinated with shiny objects (x-mas lights, glittery wrapping paper, blinking x-mas trees, etc…)
Some here want to show how Dec. 25 has no pagan roots. I would strongly disagree with that. But, OK, lets do a stretch and say Dec. 25 passes the test…How then, do you explain decorating a tree and putting it in your house and staring at it adoringly? That my friends IS pagan, with plenty o’ pagan roots 😉
“….for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion has light with darkness?”
It’s kinda scary to think what people will be tricked into doing just because the surface looks nice and pretty.
It’s time for the Church to finally snap out of it’s trance and see what the world is trying to do to the Body of Christ…
~~~~~~~~~
Grasshopper
Christmas is a pagan celebration infiltration.
The enemy has gone in. Very hard to let go; because of pressure from friends, and family.
Depends of how much one loves God; or friends and family.Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jeremiah 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jeremiah 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jeremiah 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
Jeremiah 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
Jeremiah 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Jeremiah 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jeremiah 10:13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.
Jeremiah 10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
Jeremiah 10:15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Nicolaitan = followers of Nicolas.wakeup.
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