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This thread is a continuation of the thought that LU posted here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=500
“…there is no pagan origin to Dec. 25.”–LU
I think this deserves a lot more attention. It would be good if LU could post what she considers to be facts concerning this. I would like to study this more.
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHETHER THE DATE OF DEC 25 IS BASED ON PAGAN HOLIDAYS.
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT: WHERE DID THAT DATE ORIGINATE, AND HOW DID IT BECOME THE DATE FOR CELEBRATING CHRIST'S BIRTH.
WAS IT A PAGAN DATE BEFORE “CHRISTIANS” BEGAN CELEBRATING IT, OR AS IS CLAIMED, AFTER CHRISTIANS MARKED IT AS A DATE TO CELEBRATE CHRIST'S BIRTH?david
Hi Shimmer.
Yes, I'm familiar with the idea that:
Dec 25 was chosen as the date of Christ's birth because it matched up with the birth of the sun God, and the Roman Saturnalia, and Mithras.
But my question is: What precisely is true?
Britannica states:
“For a time, coins and other monuments continued to link Christian doctrines with the worship of the Sun, to which Constantine had been addicted previously. But even when this phase came to an end, Roman paganism continued to exert other, permanent influences, great and small….The ecclesiastical calendar retains numerous remnants of pre-Christian festivals—notably Christmas, which blends elements including both the feast of the Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithra.” (“Roman Religion”. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 07-04-2011. )So, I've heard this story 500 times. I would like to confirm that it's true, or see that it's false.
I give LU the chance.
I should include this link that LU posted:
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v
http://www.answering-islam.org/pagan/christmas.html
“Polemicists (and The Da Vinci Code) frequently state that 25 December was Mithras’ birthday, yet the renowned Mithraic scholar, Dr Richard Gordon has corresponded to me that he is unaware of ‘a single date on a Mithraic inscription that falls in the winter, let alone late in December… We know NOTHING about the cycle of rituals in the cult…’ So, Christmas owes nothing to Mithraism.”
That article also touches on the christmas tree, lights, holly, mistletoe, etc.
To All…… Anyone who want to know the approximate time of Jesus berth, Her is what to do. Take the time of Johns fathers service as High Priest during the Passover when the angel told him Elisabeth and Him would have a Child, add six more months to that time because Jesus was six months younger then John the Baptist and you will have his berth approx. Example ….Lets say the passover on that Year was on April 6 as it is this year, now count 6 months and you get around Oct 6 , This would be His berth approx. That is not even close to DEC 25 as many assume he was born. He was born around the Feast of Tabernacles (Sept-Oct).
peace and love to you all……………………………………………………….gene
David, interesting link.
Gene, what I have learned just this Sunday, March 25th, coincidentally, was that Zacharias performed temple service twice a year and one time would have placed Jesus' conception near the end of December and the other time would have placed Jesus' birth at the end of Dec. or beginning of Jan. If He was born during the feast of the Tabernacles, there is no mention of it in the story of His birth. This was a huge feast and it would be strange for it to not be mentioned.
The Christian feast, the feast of Annunciation (honoring when Gabriel visited Mary initially) is annually celebrated on March 25th which is why I mentioned the date that this was shown me…March 25th last Sunday, (merely coincidence or divine timing). Another thing, another Christian feast is a Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist on June 24th.
So, if Luke 1 is referring to a Sept./Oct. temple service, the feast of Annunciation on March 25th (honoring the announcement from Gabriel to Mary), the Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist on June 24th (honoring John's birth), and the feast of the Nativity of our Lord and Savior on Dec. 25th (honoring the birth of Christ) all would make sense. From what you posted, it seems that you were unaware of a Sept./Oct. temple service. You will not find Passover mentioned in Luke 1, fyi.
This link is informative:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.htmlBlessings,
KathiQuote To All…… Anyone who want to know the approximate time of Jesus berth, I think we all agree that the date of his birth is around the beginning of Oct.
But this thread is more about whether or not
1. Christians tried to take over Dec 25, which was already a pagan holiday with pagan customs,
or
2. Christians chose Dec 25 before pagans ever touched it, with pagans perhaps adopting Dec 25 after Christians. (Also, the Christmas customs. If you look at the link I found, it makes a claim that all those things were not based on paganism.)
David,
Now that I see that Zacharias had temple service two times a year, once in March/April and once in Sept./Oct. I can certainly get behind a Dec. 25th birth date. Did you know about the second time of the year that Zacharias served in the temple?Lu, there are many reasons why it cants be dec 25. But that is not what this thread is about. I would really like for you to go over the facts as simply as you can concerning this thread.
Lu……..Those feast days are not the feast day of God, but of Pagans, and if Jesus was six months younger then John how do you get DEC from March or April . If I count six months i Get August or Sept. The would be six months later not DEC or Jan. Dec 25 is a Pagan feast day Just as Easter is also. Any true examination of those days will prove it , even the Catholic Clergy know that. The ancient Pagan who Emperor Constantine forces to become Christians all celebrated those day way before Christianity even came on the seen as any true non biased Historian can Prove easily. Just look up the words in any Encyclopedia and read what it say. IMO David is right about this LU> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Gene,
You didn't read what I linked for you. Go read it. Here it is again:http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html
Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2012,02:39) Lu, there are many reasons why it cants be dec 25. But that is not what this thread is about. I would really like for you to go over the facts as simply as you can concerning this thread.
David,
This thread is about the claims regarding the origin of Christmas as to whether it has pagan origins or not. The date of Dec. 25th has been believed by some that the date was picked to coordinate with the established pagan holiday of Saturnalia. So, now you say that discussion of the date is not what this thread is about. I strongly disagree.I see the great probability that the date is appropriate now for the date of the birth of Christ or at least the conception of Christ. The info that tells us of the two temple services that zacharias was involved with makes the difference. You say that there are many reasons why it cant be Dec. 25th. What are those reasons David?
I found this bit of info on shepherding near Bethlehem in December:
Shepherd with Flock
The area to the east of the city is traditionally believed to be the area of the fields of the shepherds “keeping watch o'er their flocks by night.” Several churches have been built to commemorate this event. Even today local shepherds can be seen tending their flocks in this same area (even on Christmas eve!)
Lu, being that I created this thread, I have a fairly good grasp on what it is about. And if I failed to communicate that properly, let me correct and clarify now.
“THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHETHER THE DATE OF DEC 25 IS BASED ON PAGAN HOLIDAYS.
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT: WHERE DID THAT DATE ORIGINATE, AND HOW DID IT BECOME THE DATE FOR CELEBRATING CHRIST'S BIRTH.
WAS IT A PAGAN DATE BEFORE “CHRISTIANS” BEGAN CELEBRATING IT, OR AS IS CLAIMED, AFTER CHRISTIANS MARKED IT AS A DATE TO CELEBRATE CHRIST'S BIRTH?”So, this thread ISN'T about whether Jesus was born on Dec 25th, which he wasn't. (We can create another thread on that if you like.)
What this thread is about is “WHETHER THE DATE OF DEC 25 IS BASED ON PAGAN HOLIDAYS.”Quote This thread is about the claims regarding the origin of Christmas as to whether it has pagan origins or not. –Lu
Well, not exactly. Because if that was what the thread was about specifically, you would have a lot of people just focusing on what they consider to be pagan aspects or traditions that are linked to Christmas. And they would say: “see.”
This thread isn't specifically about the “origins of Christmas” but more accurately, about the ORIGIN OF THE DATE.
“WHETHER THE DATE OF DEC 25 IS BASED ON PAGAN HOLIDAYS.”
Lu, I'm thinking you believe that date that was chosen (dec 25) wasn't chosen to cover over what was already a pagan holiday, but was chosen for other reasons, and subsequently, pagans adopted the same day perhaps.
If this is so, please explain.
Dec 25, Christmas, pagan origin?
Perhaps the title of this thread should just be: “dec 25, pagan origin.”
Let's all focus on that, as there are other threads that revolve around more general ideas. Thanks.
David,
you said:Quote Lu, I'm thinking you believe that date that was chosen (dec 25) wasn't chosen to cover over what was already a pagan holiday, but was chosen for other reasons, and subsequently, pagans adopted the same day perhaps. If this is so, please explain.
Yes David, I believe the date was chosen for other reasons and I have already been explaining that in this thread. Dec. 25th was chosen because it is nine months after March 25th which is thought to be the date when the angel made the announcement to Mary. March 25th is about 6 months after zacharias was serving in the temple for his second time in that previous year.
Here is a link that has a lot of info regarding how the Christmas date does NOT have pagan origins:
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 30 2012,17:11) David,
you said:Quote Lu, I'm thinking you believe that date that was chosen (dec 25) wasn't chosen to cover over what was already a pagan holiday, but was chosen for other reasons, and subsequently, pagans adopted the same day perhaps. If this is so, please explain.
Yes David, I believe the date was chosen for other reasons and I have already been explaining that in this thread. Dec. 25th was chosen because it is nine months after March 25th which is thought to be the date when the angel made the announcement to Mary. March 25th is about 6 months after zacharias was serving in the temple for his second time in that previous year.
Lu………..But scripture say Jesus was Six month younger the John, not nine months.peace and love…………………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
I know that Jesus was approximately six months younger than John. Follow the timeline of what I am saying:
Sept/Oct. Zacharias performed temple worship for the second time that year and John the Baptist was conceived.
March 25th Mary receives the visitation from Gabriel and Elisabeth is about 6 months along in her pregnancy.
Mary visits Elisabeth soon after she is pregnant in March/April.
Elisabeth gives birth to John in June.
Mary gives birth in December, 6 months later.It all fits a December birth if the temple service was during the second temple service that Zacharias performed during that particular year before Christ's birth.
Was that clear Gene?
Blessings,
Kathi
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