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Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,18:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,16:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Hi brother WJ,
Yes you are right, brother Nick and his father are both human beings but not single human. As per Trinity God the Father and God the Son are two independent persons who are called God.I wonder how our Christians easily accept this blunder on defining God and Jesus in the light of Jewish Monotheism?
G,
In Jewish monotheism the Son was equal to God (John 5:19-21),Quote Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill Him not only because he had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God Whether the Jews were correct or incorrect about Jesus' claim we see that monotheism in their thinking allowed for more than one person to exist as God.
thinker
Irene said:
Quote To All! Jesus himself said that my Father is greater then I. Irene,
And the Father Himself called His Son “God.”To the Son He said,
Quote Your throne O God is forever and ever…(Heb. 1:8). When Jesus said the Father was greater than Him you believe it. But when the Father said that the Son is “God” you deny it. Yet you call the Father your God.
thionker
thinker Did I deny that Jesus is God? I didn't. So if Jesus is called God, does that make them a trinity? No. Why, because the Father is above all. Ephesians 4:6 But even Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then Jesus. Why do you still insist that the trinity is true.
Also like I said before the Holy Spirit is not a person, if so then He is the Father of Jesus, and that is not so. You cannot prove the trinity doctrine, while I proved that it is not so.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,22:04) thinker Did I deny that Jesus is God? I didn't. So if Jesus is called God, does that make them a trinity? No. Why, because the Father is above all. Ephesians 4:6 But even Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then Jesus. Why do you still insist that the trinity is true.
Also like I said before the Holy Spirit is not a person, if so then He is the Father of Jesus, and that is not so. You cannot prove the trinity doctrine, while I proved that it is not so.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
I am glad that you do not deny that Jesus is God. This makes them a trinity. The Bible does NOT say that the Father only is above all. Paul said that Christ is ALL IN ALL. (Colossians 3:11). Do you believe that Paul is a liar like bodhitharta says? Matthew says that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. I do not think that this would make the Holy Spirit Jesus' father. He is a person. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach the disciples. This means that the Holy Spirit has a mind that thinks and reasons. This means the Holy Spirit has personhood.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,20:22) Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,18:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,16:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Hi brother WJ,
Yes you are right, brother Nick and his father are both human beings but not single human. As per Trinity God the Father and God the Son are two independent persons who are called God.I wonder how our Christians easily accept this blunder on defining God and Jesus in the light of Jewish Monotheism?
G,
In Jewish monotheism the Son was equal to God (John 5:19-21),Quote Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill Him not only because he had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God Whether the Jews were correct or incorrect about Jesus' claim we see that monotheism in their thinking allowed for more than one person to exist as God.
thinker
If that were true they would not have wanted to kill him?These Jews didn't know their own scriptures and why Jesus used the term “son” and Jesus clearly let them know the Father is greater than I and that is to say No, I am not making myself out to be equal to God”
Quote (thethinker @ July 03 2009,05:04) Quote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,22:04) thinker Did I deny that Jesus is God? I didn't. So if Jesus is called God, does that make them a trinity? No. Why, because the Father is above all. Ephesians 4:6 But even Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then Jesus. Why do you still insist that the trinity is true.
Also like I said before the Holy Spirit is not a person, if so then He is the Father of Jesus, and that is not so. You cannot prove the trinity doctrine, while I proved that it is not so.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
I am glad that you do not deny that Jesus is God. This makes them a trinity. The Bible does NOT say that the Father only is above all. Paul said that Christ is ALL IN ALL. (Colossians 3:11). Do you believe that Paul is a liar like bodhitharta says? Matthew says that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. I do not think that this would make the Holy Spirit Jesus' father. He is a person. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach the disciples. This means that the Holy Spirit has a mind that thinks and reasons. This means the Holy Spirit has personhood.thinker
You mean like Paul says2 Corinthians 12
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guileExodus 21:13-15 (King James Version)
14But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
More deception:
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law;
To them that are without the law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are under the law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
I CORINTHIANS 9:19-22Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, …
Jeremiah 48:10Quote (bodhitharta @ July 03 2009,05:10) Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,20:22) Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,18:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,16:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Hi brother WJ,
Yes you are right, brother Nick and his father are both human beings but not single human. As per Trinity God the Father and God the Son are two independent persons who are called God.I wonder how our Christians easily accept this blunder on defining God and Jesus in the light of Jewish Monotheism?
G,
In Jewish monotheism the Son was equal to God (John 5:19-21),Quote Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill Him not only because he had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God Whether the Jews were correct or incorrect about Jesus' claim we see that monotheism in their thinking allowed for more than one person to exist as God.
thinker
If that were true they would not have wanted to kill him?These Jews didn't know their own scriptures and why Jesus used the term “son” and Jesus clearly let them know the Father is greater than I and that is to say No, I am not making myself out to be equal to God”
But that is exactly what the narrative says. It says that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His Father. To them it implied equality with God. Therefore, their monotheism allowed for God to exist as a plural unity. I suppose that if I continue to corner you on this you will say next that John is also a liar. That's the way you handle texts you cannot reconcile with your presppositions.thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, …
Jeremiah 48:10If Paul is cursed then why do you call on his writings that you think disprove the trinity? If Paul was dishonest as you say then why does he tell us he is dishonest? A dishonest man does not say “I have tricked you.” You're not applying any common sense when you read the Scriptures. I fail to see how you conclude that Paul was dishonest from the Scriptures you provide.
Are you saying that his confession of dishonesty is the only thing he was honest about?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 03 2009,05:34) bodhitharta said: Quote Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, …
Jeremiah 48:10If Paul is cursed then why do you call on his writings that you think disprove the trinity? If Paul was dishonest as you say then why does he tell us he is dishonest? A dishonest man does not say “I have tricked you.” You're not applying any common sense when you read the Scriptures. I fail to see how you conclude that Paul was dishonest from the Scriptures you provide.
Are you saying that his confession of dishonesty is the only thing he was honest about?
thinker
Thinker,Have you ever really read the words of Paul? he says:
Romans 7:16-18 (King James Version)
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Now how do you interpret verse 18
Quote Thinker, Have you ever really read the words of Paul? he says:
Romans 7:16-18 (King James Version)
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Now how do you interpret verse 18
bd,
One who admits that he is no good is an honest man. And what do his imperfections have to do with the power of God? All the writers of the Bible were sinners. Did this get in the way when God inspired them to write. King David also confessed that he was unclean and a sinner. Would you have me conclude that the Psalms he wrote were all lies? Come on! You don't understand the power of God!thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 03 2009,05:04) Quote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,22:04) thinker Did I deny that Jesus is God? I didn't. So if Jesus is called God, does that make them a trinity? No. Why, because the Father is above all. Ephesians 4:6 But even Jesus Himself said that His Father is greater then Jesus. Why do you still insist that the trinity is true.
Also like I said before the Holy Spirit is not a person, if so then He is the Father of Jesus, and that is not so. You cannot prove the trinity doctrine, while I proved that it is not so.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
I am glad that you do not deny that Jesus is God. This makes them a trinity. The Bible does NOT say that the Father only is above all. Paul said that Christ is ALL IN ALL. (Colossians 3:11). Do you believe that Paul is a liar like bodhitharta says? Matthew says that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. I do not think that this would make the Holy Spirit Jesus' father. He is a person. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach the disciples. This means that the Holy Spirit has a mind that thinks and reasons. This means the Holy Spirit has personhood.thinker
thinker When the Father calls Jesus God it does not make them equal. By Jesus own words He said :” My Father is greater then I. Do you even know what the trinity is? I taught our 4 Children the trinity since we belonged tot he Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. The trinity is 3in1 and all are equal. The Holy Spirit is a Person according to the trinity. Did you read what I said about that? If the Holy Spirit is a Person then He is the Father of Jesus. And we know that is not true. Nowhere in the Bible will you find the trinity listed.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,20:19) Amen to that post Sis Irene.
Thank you much Adam. I just wish more would understand.
Peace and Love IreneIrene said”
Quote thinker When the Father calls Jesus God it does not make them equal. By Jesus own words He said :” My Father is greater then I. Do you even know what the trinity is? I taught our 4 Children the trinity since we belonged tot he Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. The trinity is 3in1 and all are equal. The Holy Spirit is a Person according to the trinity. Did you read what I said about that? If the Holy Spirit is a Person then He is the Father of Jesus. And we know that is not true. Nowhere in the Bible will you find the trinity listed Irene,
You say that when the Father calls Jesus God that does not make them equal. So when Jesus said that the Father is greater that does not make Jesus less. Jesus said that BEFORE he was exalted. How many times are you going to make me tell you this?thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,07:36) Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)
Quote
ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.”
In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.”
Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115:Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32; 19:18; 20:4; Ex 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15; 13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15; 22:6; 2Ki 7:6; 19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11; 4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17, 22, 23; 37:13; 38:9, 15, 22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32; 73:20; 77:2, 7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15; 89:49, 50; 90:1, 17; 110:5; 130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18; 4:4; 6:1, 8, 11; 7:14, 20; 8:7; 9:8, 17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6, 8, 16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14, 16; 49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15; 2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20; 3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29; 21:9; 33:17, 20; Da 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14.
Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah).
Just look at Ps 110:1: Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…”It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.
David,
It is beyond me how you can think the information you provided would hurt Trinitarianism even if it be true. If Psalm 110:5 went through a scribal change from “YHWH” to “Adonai” as your source says, then it is YHWH who sits at YHWH's right hand. Therefore, Christ is YHWH too.You didn't even put a little dent in Trinitarianism. You rather helped us and for that we thank you
thinker
Try reading it without those man-made numbers that divide and separate where God does not.Jehovah [The LORD] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [Messiah] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Adonay [The Lord] at thy [Messiah] right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
The identity of “thou” has not changed between the two verses.
As for “Jehovah” being the wrong pronunciation for God's name, since you don't know what is right, how do you know what is not right? You are falling for the trash-theology developed by a group begun in 1753 by a French physician named Astruc.
He actually began his movement as a joke, but his disciples were seriously zealous for ANYTHING that would stop Christians from teaching truth of the gospel. They ran with the silliness began by Astruc, and began a whole new field of criticism which attacked the field of “textual criticism,” so they named their movement “higher criticism” to attain a modicum of respectability in society who is impressed with high sounding names and new words.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,07:56) Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,15:36) Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)
Quote
ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.”
In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.”
Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115:Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32; 19:18; 20:4; Ex 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15; 13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15; 22:6; 2Ki 7:6; 19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11; 4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17, 22, 23; 37:13; 38:9, 15, 22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32; 73:20; 77:2, 7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15; 89:49, 50; 90:1, 17; 110:5; 130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18; 4:4; 6:1, 8, 11; 7:14, 20; 8:7; 9:8, 17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6, 8, 16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14, 16; 49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15; 2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20; 3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29; 21:9; 33:17, 20; Da 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14.
Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah).
Just look at Ps 110:1: Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…”It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.
David,
It is beyond me how you can think the information you provided would hurt Trinitarianism even if it be true. If Psalm 110:5 went through a scribal change from “YHWH” to “Adonai” as your source says, then it is YHWH who sits at YHWH''s right hand. Therefore, Christ is YHWH.You didn't even put a little dent in Trinitarianism. You rather helped us and for that we thank you
thinker
Hi ThinkerGood point!
David is a JW and they think that the name “Jehovah” is the proper name of YHWH, therefore the translatiors were being disingenuous.
However the word “YHWH” is the tetragamtion of the Hebrew for God's name.
These four letters are usually transliterated from Hebrew as IHVH in Latin, JHWH in German, French and Dutch, and YHWH in English. This was variously rendered as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah”, since in Latin there was no distinct lettering to distinguish 'Y' from 'J', or 'W' from 'V', and the Hebrew does not clearly indicate the omitted vowels. In English translations, it is often rendered in small capital letters as “the LORD”, following Jewish tradition which reads the word as “Adonai” (“Lord”) out of respect for the name of God and the commandment not to take the name of God in vain. The word “haŠem” 'the Name' is also used in Jewish contexts; in Samaritan, “Šemå” is the normal substitution Source
Since the exact pronunciation of the name is lost, then to claim that “LORD” cannot be used for YHWH as apposed to “Jehovah” is a moot point.
No one knows the exact pronuciation. Jesus didn't even speak his name to his disciples.
Blessings WJ
What Jesus DID speak plainly enough to be understood, is “True worshippers will Worship the Father” and “MY Father is greater than I” and “Tha tthey may know THEE (Father) as the only true God.”He did nto say “An only tru God” as though he is one of several, or three, or two, but “THE only true God.”
Paladin said:
Quote Try reading it without those man-made numbers that divide and separate where God does not. Jehovah [The LORD] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [Messiah] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Adonay [The Lord] at thy [Messiah] right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
The identity of “thou” has not changed between the two verses.
Paladin,
Please refer to the Hebrew Interlinear on verse 5. David said,Quote My Lord (Adonai) is at your right hand. This refers to the Messiah of verse one,
Quote Jehovah said to My Lord, sit on my right hand…. Note also that verses 6-7 speaks of the judgment. We know that all judgment has been committed to the Messiah and that it is from Jehovah's right hand that He executes judgment. Therefore, the Messiah is the Adonai of verse 5.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa110.pdf
thinker
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