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Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)
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ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.”
In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.”
Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115:Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32; 19:18; 20:4; Ex 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15; 13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15; 22:6; 2Ki 7:6; 19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11; 4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17, 22, 23; 37:13; 38:9, 15, 22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32; 73:20; 77:2, 7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15; 89:49, 50; 90:1, 17; 110:5; 130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18; 4:4; 6:1, 8, 11; 7:14, 20; 8:7; 9:8, 17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6, 8, 16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14, 16; 49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15; 2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20; 3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29; 21:9; 33:17, 20; Da 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14.
Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah).
Just look at Ps 110:1: Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…”It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.
David,
It is beyond me how you can think the information you provided would hurt Trinitarianism even if it be true. If Psalm 110:5 went through a scribal change from “YHWH” to “Adonai” as your source says, then it is YHWH who sits at YHWH's right hand. Therefore, Christ is YHWH too.You didn't even put a little dent in Trinitarianism. You rather helped us and for that we thank you
thinker
Hi TT,
You derive satisfaction from your personal wrestles with men.
But will you ideas please the Son of God when you meet him?Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,15:36) Quote (david @ July 01 2009,16:59)
Quote
ACCORDING TO PSALM 110:5 ADONAY IS THE NAME OF THE ONE WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND! THEREFORE, IT IS GOD WHO SITS AT YHWH'S RIGHT HAND!Something to consider is that this use of “Adonai” at Psalm 110:5 was one of 134 scribal changes from “YHWH” to “Adonai.”
In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ’Adho·nai′. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. [manuscripts] and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? The explanation is not far to seek. From time immemorial the Jewish canons decreed that the incommunicable name is to be pronounced Adonaī as if it were written[ יהוה fo daetsni ]′ian·ohdA’[ אדני YHWH]. Nothing was, therefore, more natural for the copyists than to substitute the expression which exhibited the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton which they were forbiden to pronounce.”
Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins.Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, § 115:Ge 18:3, 27, 30, 31, 32; 19:18; 20:4; Ex 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9; Nu 14:17; Jos 7:8; Jg 6:15; 13:8; 1Ki 3:10, 15; 22:6; 2Ki 7:6; 19:23; Ezr 10:3; Ne 1:11; 4:14; Job 28:28; Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17, 22, 23; 37:13; 38:9, 15, 22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11, 17, 19, 22, 26, 32; 73:20; 77:2, 7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15; 89:49, 50; 90:1, 17; 110:5; 130:2, 3, 6; Isa 3:17, 18; 4:4; 6:1, 8, 11; 7:14, 20; 8:7; 9:8, 17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6, 8, 16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14, 16; 49:14; La 1:14, 15, 15; 2:1, 2, 5, 7, 18, 19, 20; 3:31, 36, 37, 58; Eze 18:25, 29; 21:9; 33:17, 20; Da 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9, 15, 16, 17, 19, 19, 19; Am 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1; Mic 1:2; Zec 9:4; Mal 1:12, 14.
Things get confusing and even more confusing when people substitute “lord” for “YHWH” (Jehovah).
Just look at Ps 110:1: Many Bibles read: “The Lord said to my Lord…”It's as though people are trying to confuse others as to who is being discussed.
David,
It is beyond me how you can think the information you provided would hurt Trinitarianism even if it be true. If Psalm 110:5 went through a scribal change from “YHWH” to “Adonai” as your source says, then it is YHWH who sits at YHWH''s right hand. Therefore, Christ is YHWH.You didn't even put a little dent in Trinitarianism. You rather helped us and for that we thank you
thinker
Hi ThinkerGood point!
David is a JW and they think that the name “Jehovah” is the proper name of YHWH, therefore the translatiors were being disingenuous.
However the word “YHWH” is the tetragamtion of the Hebrew for God's name.
These four letters are usually transliterated from Hebrew as IHVH in Latin, JHWH in German, French and Dutch, and YHWH in English. This was variously rendered as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah”, since in Latin there was no distinct lettering to distinguish 'Y' from 'J', or 'W' from 'V', and the Hebrew does not clearly indicate the omitted vowels. In English translations, it is often rendered in small capital letters as “the LORD”, following Jewish tradition which reads the word as “Adonai” (“Lord”) out of respect for the name of God and the commandment not to take the name of God in vain. The word “haŠem” 'the Name' is also used in Jewish contexts; in Samaritan, “Šemå” is the normal substitution Source
Since the exact pronunciation of the name is lost, then to claim that “LORD” cannot be used for YHWH as apposed to “Jehovah” is a moot point.
No one knows the exact pronuciation. Jesus didn't even speak his name to his disciples.
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,15:46) Hi TT,
You derive satisfaction from your personal wrestles with men.
But will you ideas please the Son of God when you meet him?
Hi NHSeems like a weak threat from a desperate man!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,07:46) Hi TT,
You derive satisfaction from your personal wrestles with men.
But will you ideas please the Son of God when you meet him?
Nick,
Will you just ignore what David said and the conclusion that comes from what he said?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,16:14) Hi WJ,
Will you present your trinity theories in triumph to the Son of God?
Hi NHI will confess him as my “Great God and Saviour and Lord”, how about you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,08:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,16:14) Hi WJ,
Will you present your trinity theories in triumph to the Son of God?
Hi NHI will confess him as my “Great God and Saviour and Lord”, how about you?
WJ
Amen WJ!thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,08:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,16:14) Hi WJ,
Will you present your trinity theories in triumph to the Son of God?
Hi NHI will confess him as my “Great God and Saviour and Lord”, how about you?
WJ
You are going to call Jesus your “God” when you meet him? Tell me what will you call his God and since it is the Will of God that you worship Him as God Alone, how will you explain this to Jesus that his Father is not the Most High but he is?I sure hope that won't be a sentence of Hell but Jesus said he will say he doesn't know you and call you a worker of iniquity.
May God have mercy on you.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 01 2009,18:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,08:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,16:14) Hi WJ,
Will you present your trinity theories in triumph to the Son of God?
Hi NHI will confess him as my “Great God and Saviour and Lord”, how about you?
WJ
You are going to call Jesus your “God” when you meet him? Tell me what will you call his God and since it is the Will of God that you worship Him as God Alone, how will you explain this to Jesus that his Father is not the Most High but he is?I sure hope that won't be a sentence of Hell but Jesus said he will say he doesn't know you and call you a worker of iniquity.
May God have mercy on you.
HI BDDo you think The Father, David, Isaiah, Gabriel, John, Thomas, Luke, Paul, and Peter, Ignatius and many more blasphemed by calling Jesus God? Was the Father sinning by commanding the Angels to worship him?
Shall I list all of the scriptures?
You need to read Pauls confession again… Click here!
WJ
Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,16:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Hi brother WJ,
Yes you are right, brother Nick and his father are both human beings but not single human. As per Trinity God the Father and God the Son are two independent persons who are called God.I wonder how our Christians easily accept this blunder on defining God and Jesus in the light of Jewish Monotheism?
Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2009,18:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,16:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,00:30) Hi WJ,
But of course he was his own God, the one spoken of in Heb 1, Jn20 was he?
He is the son of God is he not?
NHOf course he is the Son of God! That doesnt conflict with the Trinitarian view at all!
You are the Son of your Father, is he less human than you?
Still don't get it do you NH?
WJ
Hi brother WJ,
Yes you are right, brother Nick and his father are both human beings but not single human. As per Trinity God the Father and God the Son are two independent persons who are called God.I wonder how our Christians easily accept this blunder on defining God and Jesus in the light of Jewish Monotheism?
It's because God is doing what he saidDeuteronomy 32:20-22 (King James Version)
20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Romans 10
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.Now imagine being a Jew and looking at the 34,000 denominations wouldn't that anger you if you were them but that's what they did anger God with countless Idols and rebelliousness. So I do no why this foolishness is going on the funny thing is the foolish ones don't know who they are.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,19:04) Hi BD,
Are you even going to become a jew?
Why would I become a Jew when I profess the Faith of Abraham who was not a Jew or a Christian but he bowed to God in Peace.Hi BD,
Why not fess up and tell us all our teachings are false and you are here to offer something you think is better?
Sniping at Paul and the words of God's Spirit reflect you no credit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,19:19) Hi BD,
Why not fess up and tell us all our teachings are false and you are here to offer something you think is better?
Sniping at Paul and the words of God's Spirit reflect you no credit.
God gave the Jews the torah and the works of teh Prophets and He gave Jesus the Gospel which is what Jesus teaches in “the Gospels” Jesus called it The Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven, God also gave the psalms to DavidI have not said anything about Paul that he has not said himself but I also have said that God is Mighty, Wise and is the best of planners.
To All! Jesus himself said that my Father is greater then I. There is only one Almighty God, and one mighty God. The Almighty God is greater. By Jesus own words. What I will never understand that you call yourself Christians and tare each other up. Is that really necessary? Not in my book. Not only that the Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. Otherwise the Holy Spirit would be Jesus Father, if you think the Holy Spirit is a person. So there are two holes in the theory of the trinity.
Be a little kinder towards each other, it makes better reading.
Peace and Love Irene
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