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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2009,00:07) Hi KW,
It is not to do with Christ appearing in the time of Noah as he was not born then.
Lk 16 is no fiction as no lie was ever found in the mouth of Jesus.
Technically a fable is not considered a lie but it is a fiction told in order to teach moral values. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man seems to contradict the idea that judgment occurs on Judgment Day as the wicked and the righteous are divided in Sheol and The Pit of Fire does not exist at this time.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Is that the way of God?
I do not like to say but it does seam that God does makes up hypothetical case studies to teach lessons as is done in Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 1:13(NIV) reads:
Quote The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
“Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians-warriors clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. “Therefore I handed her over to her lovers, the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword. She became a byword among women, and punishment was inflicted on her. “Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister. She too lusted after the Assyrians—governors and commanders, warriors in full dress, mounted horsemen, all handsome young men. 13 I saw that she too defiled herself; both of them went the same way.Then you have the story of the woman and the dragon in Revelations
Revelations 12:1-6(NIV) reads:
Quote A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Jn16:
Quote 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Was he not responsible for killing an innocent man?
The story of Lazarus and the Rich man may be a accurate portrayal of Sheol but at this time I am hesitant about saying it is. If I had more evidence to support for what is described then I would be less hesitant.
Hi KW,
The one who is truth told us about Hades and the bosom of Abraham.
No lie was ever found in his mouth yet his words still offend.Ez32
18Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.19Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:
23Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living.
24There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.
25They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain.
26There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.
27And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
28Yea, thou shalt be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, and shalt lie with them that are slain with the sword.
29There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit.
30There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
31Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
32For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
Nick Hassan:
Quote The one who is truth told us about Hades and the bosom of Abraham.
No lie was ever found in his mouth yet his words still offend.I cited two examples that someone can point to and say they stories are untrue. There was no actual dragon who chased a woman. And there were no two sisters named Oholah and Oholibah. Those fictional stories were told to teach and to warn. Jesus told the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus to make the point that “He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' ” , Luke 16,31(NIV). It is also a prophecy of Jesus’ death and resurrection.
You have these:
Psalms 4-5(NIV) reads:
Quote Turn, O LORD, and deliver me;
save me because of your unfailing love.
No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?Psalms 88:5(NIV) reads:
Quote 5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.Isaiah 38:18(NIV) reads:
Quote 18 For the grave cannot praise you,
death cannot sing your praise;
those who go down to the pit
cannot hope for your faithfulness.Ecclesiastics 9:10(NIV):
Quote Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
But you also have these:
Proverbs 15:24(NIV) reads:
Quote The path of life leads upward for the wise
to keep him from going down to the grave.Psalms 49:15 reads:
Quote But God will redeem my life from the grave;
he will surely take me to himself.
SelahNick Hassan wrote:
Quote WE know so little about the Sheol of earth so why would we not learn from Jesus?
I believe we are told little because we need to know little. What we need to know is that those who love wickedness will be punished while those who strive to be like God in true righteousness and holiness will inherit eternal life. As far as I understand Sheol is just a resting place until God has constructed more permanent places for both the wicked and the righteous at which time he will choose to judge. As I pointed out previously I do not believe Jesus’ purpose in the tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus was to teach us about Sheol no matter how curious we are about it.
Hi KW,
God's ways are not ours.
Does anyone in the second resurrection deserve mercy as they are the ones who have not accepted the challenge of Jn3?Jn3
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
They are not raised in Christ as they have not been reborn.
They ahave not already passed from death to lifeJn5
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Yet mercy triumphs over judgement and God finds more sheep among them.
But it is not a trial as men would have judgement trials.
Sheep and goats they are already shown to be.Hi KW,
It is odd that folk will not accept what Jesus showed about Hades and the bosom of Abraham in Lk16.
We have no greater witness to the truthHi KW,
It is all done and dusted by the time we take our last breath.Heb9
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Quote for the standard of judgement for the second death is according to God only, –reb
“The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son.” (John 5:22)
Of course, the Bible mentions “joint heirs” of Christ–
“do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” (1 cor 6:2)
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them.”LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”Quote So, what does it profit you to spend much of your time knocking on doors Love to answer this Rab, but there are actual threads that are devoted to that.
Quote The BIBLE says that holy ones receive the kingdom, make up the kingdom, are the kingdom, along with Christ. It says they “rule” and are kings.
No one has yet answered who they rule over.Quote Hey David…people will be resurrected right? There is your answer And are those people who are resurrected also Kings? Kings are rulers. Where there are rulers, there are subjects. If everyone is a ruler, then no one really is, and the word “king” would be wrong. My point is, if there are kings that make up the kingdom, and there are subjects that they rule over, then not everyone makes up that governement, that kingdom. It is a government that rules over people.
Hi Nick,
Does the context of one part of scripture disassociate it from other parts of Scripture? …please answer
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2012,14:51) Hi Ed,
No but we should not ASSUME all similar terms are related.
Hi Nick,You mean like “Messiah” and “Christ”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgYes Nick,
There are many instances of derivations.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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