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LU: Who is it that you are agreeing with that thinks that Yahweh and Jesus are two different gods?
I thought I was agreeing with you. You’ve told me that John 1:1 speaks of two gods – one of whom was with the other. And you’ve told me that the Father is the unbegotten God who can’t be seen by human eyes, while Jesus is the only begotten god who can be seen by humans. Um… that’s two different gods, Kathi.
Are you telling me that you think they are both the same god?
Do you think that “my gospel” is consistent with one who believes that John 1:18 correctly calls Jesus the only begotten God?
The only verse that you have that there are two Gods, with one begotten from the other is rather controversial. But even if it is communicating that from God another was begotten from his nature, then that would be true IMO. Because The Word was divine. But you make it out to be two Gods. Anyway, many translations actually say ‘begotten son’ which seems more consistent with the rest of scripture and in particular, the Book of John. Whereas, begotten God is not repeated in scripture like begotten Son is.
Jouhn 1:18 (KJV)
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have everlasting life.”John 3:18
“He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”Mike…….Jesus did not say there are not other God’s, did he, he said there is “only” ONE “TRUE” GOD. SO YOU POINT of more then one God’s is true, as I explained in the definition of the word God, what it actually means, anything can be a real God to a person, anything a person puts his Trust and faith in and leans on it for his power , “IS” his or her “GOD” , just as it say , “as for God’s , “there are many”, “BUT UNTO “US” there is but “ONE” God, who is to us and Jesus , the ONLY, “TRUE” GOD. So all the rest “SO-CALLED GOD’S, are false God’s to “US” .
So, to the world Satan is THEIR TRUE GOD, but not to “US”, (true believers), because we only have “ONE” ‘TRUE” GOD. , all the rest are not “TRUE” GOD’S, TO US, WHY, BECAUSE THE WORD GOD, IS NOT A PERSON OR THING, IT IS, THE “Relationship” YOU HAVE WITH THAT PERSON OR THING, “which”, YOU HAVE PUT YOUR, “FAITH AND TRUST “IN” that is “YOUR” , true God , GET IT?
IF YOU BELIEVE Jesus is your true God, fine, then he is “YOUR” true God, but He is “not my, “true” God?, I have a “true” God and it’s the same God, my brother Jesus has.
Mike the mistake is made by not truly understanding what the actual word God means, it’s not a person it’s “A DESCRIPTOR OF THE RELATIONSHIP”, you have with something, anything. Once you understand that clearly then the rest falls into place. So, your right in saying there are many God’s , but wrong in say they are TRUE God’s that we believe in. Those God’s may be a true God you and to others , but not to US, (true believers) we only have “ONE” true God, just like Jesus does. And it’s “not” their or your God’s, you and they believe in. Just that simple Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike. …………gene
Hi Mike,
Regarding this post:
I thought I was agreeing with you. You’ve told me that John 1:1 speaks of two gods – one of whom was with the other. And you’ve told me that the Father is the unbegotten God who can’t be seen by human eyes, while Jesus is the only begotten god who can be seen by humans. Um… that’s two different gods, Kathi.
Are you telling me that you think they are both the same god?
Deut 10:17
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods (Father), and Lord of lords (Son), the great God (the Father with the Son not apart from the Son, united into one Spirit), the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn’t respect persons, nor takes reward.
Proclaimer said:
But even if it is communicating that from God another was begotten from his nature, then that would be true IMO.
So you can agree that the Son could properly be called the only begotten god/God whether or not it actually says it in John 1;18, right?
Thanks for your response.
I’m interested in how you reconcile your your view of the two YHVHs do not form one God with these passages:
Deut 10:17
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn’t respect persons, nor takes reward.
Deut 6:4 Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:
Zechariah 14:9
Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one.
Mike the mistake is made by not truly understanding what the actual word God means, it’s not a person it’s “A DESCRIPTOR OF THE RELATIONSHIP”, you have with something, anything. Once you understand that clearly then the rest falls into place. So, your right in saying there are many God’s , but wrong in say they are TRUE God’s that we believe in. Those God’s may be a true God you and to others , but not to US, (true believers) we only have “ONE” true God, just like Jesus does. And it’s “not” their or your God’s, you and they believe in. Just that simple Mike.
Hi brother Gene, this is the problem with many JW and other Christians who make Jesus a god like Satan who is the god of this world as per 2 Corinthians 4:4
So you can agree that the Son could properly be called the only begotten god/God whether or not it actually says it in John 1;18, right?
One can be called theos in a qualitative sense, but as soon as you say it means ‘God’ which is ‘the god’ in Greek, then you have mistranslated it. If you say ‘Jesus is God’. Then in Greek, you are saying that ‘Jesus is the God’ in Greek and that is wrong.
And when Mike says ‘Jesus is a god”, I believe he is wrong too because there is no indefinite article in Greek, so you would say ‘the God’, not ‘a god’. If you are identifying a God, then you say ‘the god’. Such as Satan being THE god of this world. Further, names are also preceded with the definite article. So Jesus in Greek is ‘the jesus’. From what I understand however, if you were to address Jesus directly, then you would not use the definite article.
Of course this is all problematic in English because we can add in the indefinite article and if you were to translate it back to Greek, you would use the definite article instead of the indefinite article. In some ways, a paraphrase translation can be more accurate in such circumstances. Because you can translate John 1:1c as “The Word was divine”. Anyhow, when Theos is always translates as God, then “ye are theos” means they are God too.
I feel like I have to repeat myself over and over regarding this. But there is one Adam (ignoring the final Adam). The first man was Adam. His offspring are in nature, adam which simply means ‘man’ or ‘mankind’. In other words, there is one person who is Adam not two or three, but all who are derived from him are called adam / man. Adam is identifying an individual and adam is specifying the nature of Adam. Therefore, you could be talking about two men, three, even 7 billion men. And we would not need to craft a binity, trinity, or billionity doctrine to explain it because there is one still one Adam, the father of humanity. Likewise, there is one God the Father.
It seems people really cannot grasp the difference between identity and nature however. I am not sure anyone here can grasp it which I find a bit odd because the concept is really simple IMO. Maybe most people who post here are not that smart or intellectual. But to explain it in another way. We understand such things even in our own English language. If I said, the man, then I am not talking about mankind, but a particular person. So it is with ‘The God’. And we are taught clearly who that God is.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols…
It seems people really cannot grasp the difference between identity and nature however. I am not sure anyone here can grasp it which I find a bit weird because the concept is really simple. Maybe most people who post here are not that smart. But to explain it in another way. We understand such things even in our own English language. If I said, the man, then I am not talking about mankind, but a particular person. So it is with The God. And we are taught clearly who that God is.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols…
Hi Proclaimer,
I also feel so much weird on reading these posts on God and Jesus from our members. At the same time there is much ambiguity on reading the texts on God and Jesus in the NT especially the statements of Paul like 1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
This so called One God and One Lord created much confusion in Christianity than in any other religion. One thinks this God and Lord are same and other things that both these two are different beings.
Whereas the Hebrew Bible states in Deut 10:17
17 For the Lord (Yahweh) your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe,
Here Yahweh is both God and Lord.
This is the reason why I am standing against the concepts of the NT on God and Messiah.
Adam……The trip is in the actual translation of the Greek word, (dia) , it is used in two places in that sentence, that if misunderstood gives a wrong understanding to the whole sentence.
Let me paraphrase the way I see it, and it should eliminate the confusion, The First of the sentence is correct just as it is written, but the second part is not, it should read, and for the purpose of him and through him we all exist.
Now consider this, God had in his, mind from the very beginning a purpose for his human creation, before he ever created “anything”, there existed a “purpose” for his human creation, that purpose was fullfilled in Jesus, not the first Adam, but the perfect “HUMAN BEING”, (the second Adam), Jesus Christ, and we also through his death are able to fulfill that original intention that God had in mind , for “ALL”, his “HUMAN” creation, in the very beginning.
The reason it says , and through him we all “exist”, is because God the Father offered up Jesus for the sins of all humanity, taking our sins away, so we do exist “through” that process, that God himself brought about through Jesus , because of his love for us all.
As I said the trip word is the Greek word (dia), not being properly understood and applied there, by properly understanding this, keeps it in line with all the rest of scriptures too, hope this helped, Adam.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam. ………..gene
Let me paraphrase the way I see it, and it should eliminate the confusion, The First of the sentence is correct just as it is written, but the second part is not, it should read, and for the purpose of him and through him we all exist.
Now consider this, God had in his, mind from the very beginning a purpose for his human creation, before he ever created “anything”, there existed a “purpose” for his human creation, that purpose was fullfilled in Jesus, not the first Adam, but the perfect “HUMAN BEING”, (the second Adam), Jesus Christ, and we also through his death are able to fulfill that original intention that God had in mind , for “ALL”, his “HUMAN” creation, in the very beginning.
Hi brother Gene, thanks for your reply to my post. But the problem here is that the Hebrew Bible does not talk any thing about this Jesus in its creation stories. It’s all the imagination and invention made by those NT writers. They had created much confusion on God and his Messiah who would be a human warrior for the people of Israel.
Adam…….No scripture properly understood says Jesus prexisted his birth on this earth, that is another example of twisting up what scriptures really says, like this example. , “before ” Abraham I am, here’s how false teachers present that , they say Jesus was saying, he was “ALIVE” before Abraham , but does the word “ALIVE”, appear there, no it Dosen’t, they are “forcing” the text to draw that conclusion, it is not written that way in the text, they assume, LIKE the blind Pharisee’s they knew what he meant, but we know Jesus spoke to them only Parbles, so they would no understand what he meant. So how can we know the true understanding of those words then, easy because the scripture never used the actual word “ALIVE” , IT USED THE WORD “BEFORE” , so now look up the word used there for “BEFORE”, and you will find in Greek it carries other meanings like in fount off, as “More important then”. And yes Jesus is more important to us, then ABRAHAM ever was. That whole argument with the Parhasies, was premised on the fact of, who was most important , Abraham, or Jesus Christ , it had nothing to do with who is the oldest person at all. Those “blind” Jews mistook what Jesus was truly saying, even as modern Christanity does, to this very day.
Remember what John the Baptist told those Jews who always thought their relationship as being Sons of Abraham gave them their importance with God, what did he tell them, “God could raise up these stone unto Abraham, if he wanted to.” , that was what John and Jesus was driving at.
The false understanding of that caused the Jews in that day as well as modern Christanity , to not understand the Truth Jesus was telling them.
A BASIC PRINCIPLE IS THIS ADAM, God “in” The “MAN” Jesus , Was showing US , what his ORIGINAL INTENTION FOR ALL “HUMANITY”, “IS” , and he did it through a “MAM” EXACTLY IN EVERY WAY “LIKE” US. GOD THE FATHER SHOWED US WHAT “HE” COULD DO IN US “ALL”, IT IS JUST LIKE HE DID “IN” JESUS CHRIST. WE (the truly anointed ones) are also, the (ANOINTED ) ONES, OR CHRISTO’S OF GOD. The “exact” same as Our brother Jesus is.
To him who has ears to hear let him hear.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam. ………. gene
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Hi gadam.
I do not believe that I have ever wrote anything on this subject. But I did look at this many years ago. So I think it is time to study it and write something about it so I have an answer for next time. For now, I will share my thoughts.
- LORD is the word YHWH, (as you know). The Jews did not want to pronounce or mispronounce the name of YHWH out of reverence. They did not want to risk violating the commandment that says, “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain”. So YHWH is not related to Lord directly, but I think you already know that.
- (YHWH) is not found in any New Testament manuscript. The New Testament instead used Kyrios (Lord) or Theos (God). Obviously both testaments were written in different languages. Apart from direct quotes, words are translated to an equivalent meaning.
- Peter tells is that God made Jesus, Lord. “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Now to conclude from the three points above. It seems when God and Lord are in the same sentence or paragraph, that God is a higher position to Lord. Even in our society we see lords. They can be royalty, could be judges, and could even be the person you pay rent to, ‘landlord’. it simply means ruler and there are many rulers or people in authority to us. Theos or God on the other hand can be the Most High, false gods, Satan, and judges. So why does the New Testament say that the Father is the one true God and Jesus Christ is Lord if you can apply either word to either person? After all, is it not also correct to say that the Father is Lord and Jesus Christ is God? I think the latter statement is error. While you can say that God is a ruler, to be the God is a different matter. Yes, Satan can be the God of lies or this world for example, no one other than the Father can be the one true God or most High God.
Further, if God made Jesus Lord, it shows that the position of one true God is higher than Lord. But of course, it is technically correct to say that God is Lord, but that doesn’t prove that he is the Most High. It just means that God is a ruler. But such a statement is not precise enough to define God. It is like saying God is light when Jesus is light and those that serve Christ are the light of this world.
So in order to explain that God is the Most High, we say he is the only true God or most high God. And in order to explain that all authority from God is given to Jesus, then you can say that he is Lord and that God made him Lord. That is to convey that God made him ruler over all, except God and this has been given to no other name.
Similarly, The Pharaoh made Joseph lord of his kingdom. So Joseph ruled Egypt and had power over all, except the Pharaoh himself. So in order to communicate that God is the most high and that he made Jesus the ruler over all his creation, you can say that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. This does not negate that God is technically a lord or a ruler does it.
When you say that the Father is the only true God, this simply means that there are many gods, but that the actual original and most high and true God is the Father. And that Jesus being Lord means that there are many lords, but the highest ruler of God’s creation that is not God himself is the Lord.
Confusion in this matter is somewhat attributed to different languages. But we sometimes see that the Father is called the Lord God. This again, is saying he is God, but that he is the most high God. Whereas, in the context of Jesus, he is the most high ruler of God’s creation. He is never the Most High God.
Hi LU
I’m interested in how you reconcile your your view of the two YHVHs do not form one God with these passages:
Deut 10:17
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn’t respect persons, nor takes reward.
Deut 6:4 Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:
Zechariah 14:9
Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one.
Me
SPIRITUALLY THEY ARE LIKE ONE GOD
IN PURPOSE THEY ACT AS ONE GOD…. ETC
BUT GOD THE FATHER IS ONLY THE ONE TRUE GOD. HE IS THE HEAD OF JESUS.
YHVH IS HIS NAME.
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD SHARE THE SAME DIVINE NAME BECAUSE HE IS REALLY THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
…..
For the LORD your God is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords, the strong, the great, the mighty, and the terrible; who has no regard for the appearance of people, and who takes no presents; (Deuteronomy 10:17)(David Martin)
Hear, Israel, the Lord our God is the only Lord. (Deuteronomy 6:4)(David Martin)
6:4 ShM’y YShUr’aL YHVH ‘aLHYNV YHVH ‘aChD.(Hebrew Transliterated)
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
Zechariah 14:9(NASB)
Hebrew Transliterated
14:9 VHYH YHVH LMLK ‘yL-KL-H’aUrTSh BYVM HHV’a YHYH YHVH ‘aChD VShMV ‘aChD.
Darby’s English Translation
14:9 And Jehovah shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Jehovah, and his name one.Young’s Literal Translation
14:9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
NOW
Deut 10:17
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords,
Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of Kings….
Jesus IS ….”the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power”….
conclusion
FATHER AND SON HAVE THE SAME DIVINE NAME OF FAMILY.
YHVH FOR THE FATHER
YHVH FOR THE SON
👇
Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one.
….in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
THE NAMES OF THE OTHER GODS WILL BE FORGOTTEN
God bless
Proclaimer,
You said: If you say ‘Jesus is God’. Then in Greek, you are saying that ‘Jesus is the God’ in Greek and that is wrong.
And what if you say Jesus is the only begotten God who was with God the Father in the beginning and through the only begotten God, all things were made.
Is that a correct statement according to you?
Hi Berean,
Thanks for your post. So you believe in two separate Yahwehs that act as one Yahweh? Is that correct?
Gene,
You said:
The trip is in the actual translation of the Greek word, (dia) , it is used in two places in that sentence, that if misunderstood gives a wrong understanding to the whole sentence.
You are the one misunderstanding the word dia, Gene. You have been corrected on this. Go to the first post in the “Understanding Greek” thread and you will see that you have been translating this wrong. You are the one misunderstanding it, you Gene.
Adam,
You said:
Here Yahweh is both God and Lord.
This is the reason why I am standing against the concepts of the NT on God and Messiah.
The OT is talking about two persons as one YHVH God who is both God and Lord there in Deut 10:17. The NT supports that when it speaks of one God and one Lord, Father and Son. It further supports that by saying they both are our Savior, Shepherd, Creator, etc. It further supports it by clearly telling us who is Lord of lords in Revelation. You can embrace it all. Take care.
LU: Deut 10:17
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods (Father), and Lord of lords (Son), the great God (the Father with the Son not apart from the Son, united into one Spirit)…
Kathi, is it possible that the Father (whose name is Yahweh) is both a God of other gods AND a Lord of other lords – and that this statement doesn’t have anything to do with the Son (whose name is Jesus)?
Jesus is called the King of kings and Lord of lords. And so is Yahweh. But Artaxerxes and Nebuchadnezzar are also called the King of kings, right?
So let me do what you did to Deut 10:17…
1 Timothy 6:14-16… Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings (Artaxerxes) and Lord of lords (Yahweh) — will bring about in His own time. He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him.
Therefore our God is a Yahweh/Artaxerxes Unity of Spirit. Or this one…
Revelation 19:16… And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS (Nebuchadnezzar) AND LORD OF LORDS (Jesus).
Now our God is a Jesus/Nebuchadnezzar Unity of Spirit.
Kathi, I’m sure you’ll agree that this is nonsense. There are many who are kings of other kings. There are many who are lords of other lords. Yahweh is the only one who is called the God of other gods, though. But despite Him being the God of other gods, He is also the Lord of other lords, and the King of other kings. And Teacher of other teachers. And Savior of other saviors. And Creator of other creators. And so on and so forth.
Just because another person may also be a Lord of other lords, a King of other kings, or a Teacher of other teachers does not equate them with Yahweh – or make them a part of a Unity of Spirit with Yahweh.
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