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Proclaimer…….I do not see Mike as a deceiver in any way, he believes what he says, and if he is wrong, he will work through it , just as we all do also. It’s time to move on brother , our citizenship is in Heaven and that’s where our minds ought to be. We are to be strangers here walking in a strange land, soul journeyers like Father Abraham, as strangers looking for our home to come. Remember what John said, “for all that is in the world, the lust of the eyes , the lust of the flesh and the pride of life are from the world, and the world is passing away , an the lust thereof”.
Proclaimer, there is a “pride” of being right, that can be even more dangerous IMO.Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer ……….gene
Scripture talks about deceiving and being deceived. Some people believe in a lie and teach the same lie
How much of that is innocence coupled with lack of knowledge or a heart that God has handed over to such things is not for me to judge.
But what I have witnessed first hand is when some cannot admit their fault and dig their heels in. This can be the start of it.
It always pays to be honest and concede a point if you know you were debunked. If a person doesn’t love truth that much, then do they really deserve it?
Seek and you will find. Pride in being right despite the evidence, is the opposite of seeking.
The sons of God are they who have the Spirit that leads men to all truth. They are humble and will learn from their mistakes too. But pride will make you blind and arrogant and will lead a person to deception.
Going back to the vax. It is possible that evil people set this virus on us so they could give us a vaccine that will thin out the human herd within a number of years or decades. But many things are just as possible including Because we do not know everything, we can make guesses and calculations based on history. Vaccines have saved millions of lives. Of course, it is still possible that an elite group of evil people are planning on killing the vaxin8ted.
Is that your belief Mike?
I’ll let you into a little secret. When you believe in a flat earth despite all the scientific evidence and the lack of biblical evidence, then very few people will take you seriously on your other beliefs. And who can blame them.
Credibility is earned. You don’t get it for free and you can lose it.
Proclaimer……There are approximately 250 births per minute in this world, that equals 15000 every hour and that equals to 360, 000 per day or 131, 400,000 births per year. Compare the Covid-19 deaths to that and you can see how insignificant that really is and that isn’t even taking into account the fact that most of the COVID-19 deaths were related to many other factors, unrelated to the virus . The whole thing so far has seemed to have been over blown. Proclaimer, Mike does have some strong points on this COVID-19 thing and even Miia also, I can see some of their concerns .
But as you and I have said, it is still better to have some protection that the Vaccines provide IMO.
peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene
Yes, I agree that this thing is overblown. Whether that is because of money and control or erring on the side of caution, it seems that even a person with Covid who is killed by a gun will go down as a Covid death.
That said, there is a list of people I know of (in the world) that have been seriously harmed or died. But I do not have a list of people that I know that have been seriously harmed or died of the vaccine.
Regardless, it could turn out that Oicron or some other variant will vaccinate us all in the end. And this does raise another question. If all you need to do is release a harmless but more contagious version of Covid into the world, then when that becomes the dominant strain, everyone gets antibodies from that and for free.
At this stage, I don’t care if a person is vaccinated or not as it appears that both vaccinated and unvaccinated get Omicron. This was less so with the earlier variants.
Proclaimer: When you draw a line away from a sphere, you are going up.
If God’s throne is “up” from my perspective (my “line away from a sphere”), can that same throne be “up” from your perspective (your “line away from a sphere”)?
Since the only honest answer is “No”, does your model align with the Biblical teaching that God’s throne is “up/above” His children on earth? How do you reconcile this – because it is a part of Isaiah 40:22 (He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth…)?
Is it possible for God to sit enthroned “above” me (my “line away from a sphere”) while also sitting enthroned “above” you (your “line away from a sphere”)? Do God and the 24 elders sit enthroned at two locations at the same time? Please explain.
I also asked about Isaiah’s claim that God spread the heavens out like a tent for us to live in. I showed you photos of a nomad’s tent (which would have been familiar to Isaiah) and of a flat earth with a firmament spread out over it like a nomad’s tent. I pointed out that there is no such thing as a “spherical tent” designed to encompass a ball.
So please also explain how heaven (in your model) aligns with Isaiah’s comparison to a tent.
Proclaimer: When Isaiah looked out, he saw a circle.
Is this a photo of a ball – or a circle? How can you tell?
Proclaimer: But none of this addresses the fact that there is a virus out there that kills people…
You mean like the seasonal flu – which kills half a million people each and every year? Yes, our world is full of bacteria and parasites and many other things that kill millions of people every year. (Well, except for 2020, when EVERY death was caused by… dunh, dunh, dunh… COVID! 🙄)
Proclaimer: …and that vaccines have saved many lives.
I’ve asked you, Gene, and Adam for PROOF of this – but none has been provided. Please either provide PROOF that ANY vaccine helps in ANY way, or refrain from making such claims in the future. Thanks.
If God’s throne is “up” from my perspective (my “line away from a sphere”), can that same throne be “up” from your perspective (your “line away from a sphere”)?
Yes, because if you continue the line from your sky or mine, you will reach the edge of the universe.
“But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
And if you draw a line down into the smallest of things like atoms, electrons, quarks, and so on, then you also end at God.
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
Mike, your two dimensional thinking is ridiculous. Let’s take your frisbee earth and draw a line downward to below the disc, then below the water, below the world of the dead, and kept going. Are you saying that God is not there? Further, if you draw a horizontal line from the disc so that it neither crosses up or down. Are you also saying God is not there? If God is there, then of course he can be outward from New Zealand and the US on a globe too.
You mean like the seasonal flu – which kills half a million people each and every year? Yes, our world is full of bacteria and parasites and many other things that kill millions of people every year. (Well, except for 2020, when EVERY death was caused by… dunh, dunh, dunh… COVID! )
Your statement doesn’t add up. I do not know anyone personally that has died of seasonal flu. Yet, I know people that have died of Covid. Think about Rob Skiba for example, He preached what you are preaching and he died from Covid. and his is not the only story unfortunately.
So how many people do you know that say they will not die of the seasonal flu and then die from the seasonal flu? Zero? So how come this only happens when it is Covid then? I’ll let you think about this strange phenomena. But I will tell you that the answer is staring you in the face.
I’ve asked you, Gene, and Adam for PROOF of this – but none has been provided. Please either provide PROOF that ANY vaccine helps in ANY way, or refrain from making such claims in the future. Thanks.
Think for a minute Mike. Why do we not see much of the following diseases anymore?
- Polio;
- Tetanus;
- Hepatitis B;
- Hepatitis A;
- Rubella;
- Hib;
- Measles;
- Whooping Cough;
- Pneumococcal Disease;
- Rotavirus;
- Mumps;
- Chickenpox;
- Diphtheria.
Of course not everyone dies from these, but some also suffer life long symptoms. Looking at this list, I can see that I have had more than a few of these and am still alive. Then again, if I got Covid-19 and was not vaccinated, I would probably survive that too. On average, I prefer to be vaccinated to lessen the odds of death or serious illness.
Anyway, take the first disease on the list. Would you take the vaccine if you knew you were going to be infected weeks from now? Or would you follow your doctrine and hope for the best? And if you did follow your own advice, then how would you feel if your brain and spinal cord became infected and caused paralysis? Would you wish you had the vaccine at that point?
Is this a photo of a ball – or a circle? How can you tell?
Yes, a photo is missing a dimension, so you cannot absolutely prove it is a globe with a photo, even if it is extremely likely. But the globe has a single model that answers all the math and satisfies all the questions. The Flat Earth model on the other hand has no single theory. Many of the points have their own theories that do not work with each other. Further, the flat earth model makes many false predictions such as Southern Hemisphere distances. If we believe in a flat earth, then the distances required between say New Zealand and South America are wildly wrong.
Mike…….My cousin died day before yesterday from COVID-19. He was on a ventilator five weeks, he was 87 years old so no doubt other factors played a part, I know other people who have family members die from it also. My son in laws cousin in her fifties also died from COVID-19, and my neighbors wife’s sister also died from it. Don’t kid yourself Mike it is a deadly virus. While I will agree the death rate contributed to the virus alone, has been grossly over stated, It still is a very deadly virus . Taking your vaccines might not protect you from getting the virus , but I do believe it’s helps, just like any flu shot does also .
Mike what if you cause someone to not take the shots and they die from Covid-19 wouldn’t you feel bad, thinking you may have contributed to there death? Better not to say anything then to say something and cause harm right? IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike……….gene
Proclaimer: I’ll assume that this graph is correct. It would fit with restrictions being lifted, a more contagious mutation of the virus, and / or more testing. What it doesn’t absolutely say is that more people are dying or a injured by the virus or vaccine.
So then you admit that more testing (which equals more “cases” [which are 90+ % false positives]) doesn’t equate to more people sick, injured or dying? If you understand this basic fact, then you surely can understand the huge push for EVERYONE to be tested for this “killer” common cold – whether they were sick or not.
1. Test every HEALTHY person.
2. Tests result in 90+ % of false positives (and can’t even distinguish between Covid 19 and the seasonal flu).
3. Change the definition of “case” from a person who is sick to now include perfectly healthy people whose test said they were positive even though they NEVER got sick, so the numbers would be sky high and gullible people would believe this common cold was worse than the black plague.
4. Then test everyone who died (car crash deaths, plane crash deaths, etc.), note that they too tested positive after death with the test that gives 90+ % false positives, and label EVERY death as a “Covid death”.
Results: A very scared population who thinks everyone is dying from this common cold and is willing to give up their human rights and also take the first untested experimental gene-altering injection a “person of authority” offers them… thereby making a bunch of people very rich, and a bunch of other wannabe tyrants very powerful.
That – in a nutshell – is the “Covid 19 Pandemic”.
It was NEVER about a “killer virus”, Proclaimer. It was ALWAYS about greed, power, and tyrannical rule by a few “elites” over the God-given rights of billions of formerly free people. And it was planned out many years before it was unleashed.
You don’t know this yet, because you are one of the gullible sheep who fell for it. But you WILL know it soon enough.
Anyway, the point of the graph is that the “cases” in Germany have skyrocketed straight up DESPITE very strict mask mandates, lockdowns, and vaccine mandates.
So, according to the FACTS of what’s happening in Germany right now…
1. Do mandatory masks lower the cases? NOPE.
2. Do severe lockdowns lower the cases? NOPE.
3. Do mandatory vaccines lower the cases? NOPE.
And although this isn’t in the Germany graph, we also have enough worldwide data to answer these questions as well…
4. Do lockdowns, mandatory masks and mandatory vaccinations lower Covid illnesses? NOPE.
5. Do lockdowns, mandatory masks and mandatory vaccinations lower Covid hospitalizations? NOPE.
6. Do lockdowns, mandatory masks and mandatory vaccinations lower Covid deaths? NOPE.
Proclaimer: I can’t wait for her to lose the election. Can’t come soon enough. There are too many politically correct people in New Zealand like many other western nations. Sad. It could be our undoing.
It WILL be your undoing if people like you blindly and willingly walk lock-step with what she’s doing NOW. You have thousands of countrymen joining in protest against the draconian lockdowns and mandatory policies your government is placing upon you right now, and instead of joining them in calling for an end to this BS, you call them “touters” and believe THEY are the problem.
Wake up and join them before it’s too late for you. Fight back. Stop being a blind sheep led to the slaughter.
And for God’s sake, don’t think an upcoming election is going to help you. They have been stealing elections for decades. Take action now, Proclaimer. Stand up with your unvaxxed brothers and sisters and take your country back from these tyrants. Godspeed.
Proclaimer: Mike, once again, no one is saying that vaccines are 100% safe. Rather, the risks involved are way less than the risk of contracting Covid without antibodies.
I agree with the first part – as do the millions who are now maimed for life or dead due to the vaccines. But you’re going to have to provide evidence of that last part, because as of now, none exists.
Again – since you keep somehow overlooking it…
1. Do the injections prevent anyone from contracting Covid? NOPE.
2. Do the injections prevent anyone from spreading Covid to others? NOPE.
3. Do the injections prevent anyone from getting sick with Covid? NOPE.
4. Do the injections prevent anyone from becoming very sick and being hospitalized with Covid? NOPE.
5. Do the injections prevent anyone from dying from/with Covid? NOPE.
So what exactly DO the injections do for you? Make you feel better because you blindly believe (with ZERO evidence) that they will lessen the severity of Covid? YEP.
Adam: Very good explanation on Biblical Circular and Flat Earth Science.
Thank you. It’s evident that the Bible teaches a flat earth that is held up by pillars and cannot be moved. It has over it a dome that separates the waters below from the waters above. God placed lights in this hard-as-bronze firmament, and those lights run their appointed circuits over the flat earth. There are 7 of those lights that rejected God’s appointed circuit and decided to run on their own circuits. Proclaimer and NASA call these “planets” in our “solar system”. (Note that pagans have worshipped the sun as their God for centuries, and both the “solar [sun] system” and the “helio [sun] centric model” have this “God” at their center – while God’s earth is considered an “insignificant pale blue dot” in an endless vacuum of trillions of suns and other planets just like it.)
In Jesus’ day on earth, these “planets” were called “wandering stars”, and Enoch says this about them…
Enoch 18…
12 And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: ‘This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.’
Enoch 21…
1,2 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither 3 a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw 4 seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then 5 I said: ‘For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?’ Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: ‘Enoch, why 6 dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, 7 the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.’
Notice that these seven stars that transgressed God’s appointed circuits are kept in a prison that is “the end of heaven and earth”. Notice that “heaven and earth” end at the same place.
So whether or not Enoch, Joshua, David, Jesus, God, and many others in the Bible are “right” about our world, I’m trying to get Proclaimer to acknowledge that these people all teach that the earth is flat and stationary, while the sun, moon, and stars move over us in the sky. And as you can see, he is having a hard time acknowledging what is so easy to see and readily acknowledged by you, me, and just about every Bible scholar in history.
Do you hear that, Proclaimer? You can pretend that we live on a spinning ball… but you can’t HONESTLY claim that the Bible supports your sun-worshiping heliocentric nonsense.
Proclaimer: Even taking your primitive view of things, this is what the globe looks like from so-called above in 3D.
I notice that your image is centered on the North Pole. So do God and the 24 elders sit enthroned above the North Pole then? If so, how do you look up to God’s throne from NZ – and how does God look down on you like a grasshopper in NZ? He can’t even see NZ from this vantage point. 🤔
Also, it’s easy to see that your image is meant to be a 2-dimensional rendering of a 3-dimensional ball. Just like with the baseball I posted yesterday, you can tell by the specular highlight and the shading.
So neither I nor Isaiah would look at that image and call it a circle, since it is clearly an image of a ball. Nor would Isaiah be able to describe the heaven (empty space) around that ball as a “tent” – since there is no such thing as a spherical tent.
Keep trying though. I can see you’re running out of nonsense to spew. Maybe we’ll get you to acknowledge the truth of the matter before long.
Gene: Mike why waste our time on such things like a flat earth, come on man, your much to smart for that, let it go , And return to what you are good at, “our scriptures” , that’s what I want to hear you commit on.
Gene, with all due respect, scripture IS what we are discussing. This is not a discussion about whether or not the earth is flat IN REALITY – but a discussion about whether or not THE BIBLE teaches that the earth is flat and stationary with a domed heaven over it in which the sun, moon, and stars run appointed circuits over the earth.
I would like your input on that matter, if you don’t mind. I realize that you believe we live on a spinning ball. I’m trying to get to the bottom of what THE BIBLE teaches about our earth.
Gene, do you believe that the Bible teaches that we live on a spinning ball orbiting the sun in the middle of an endless vacuum of space filled with trillions of other suns and planets?
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