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Hi Malcolm.
You have a point.James 1.15
” Then when lust has CONCEIVED [4815]; it gives birth to sin”The same word. Different as it is surely allegorical.
But there is no allegorical difference in what has a very narrow physical sense of meaning between the conceptions of Mary and Elizabeth surely.
Really I did not realize that Elizabeth was a virgin that conceived, or are you meaning Mary was not virgin born?…
If the birth of Jesus Christ was like any other then I would happily concede that the word conceive means the same thing across the board. But the fact is that the birth of Jesus Christ was unlike any other, therefore it is not the same thing across the board.
As I have said before you are no more able to prove by the definition of a word that it was Mary's egg and Gods sperm than I am of proving that it was a cell from God placed in the virgin womb. I have my reasons for believing it the way I see it, you have yours…Hi Malcolm,
You said in another forum that the body of Jesus was from the dust. How can this be if he was a new creation implanted in the womb of Mary? If Mary did not provide the essential earthly dust in what way is Jesus of dust?You plant a seed in the ground and it builds a body from the nutrients in womb of the earth.
Jesus was the seed of God, born of a virgin.
He knew no sin, was not descended from Adam but was before him.Hi Malcolm,
Not quite the same with the womb though. It only supports the growth of the conceptus due to the release of hormones from the residual corpus luteum from the egg.
Of course God could make all these processes happenbut it would not be conception.
Hi malcolm,
The egg and sperm produce a fertilised egg and then, with the support of hormone manipulation, the body is encouraged to support that conceptus being implanted.Hi,
If Jesus was truly conceived from God's Spirit and Mary then that could not be when he became the Son of God. That would make him the Son of God and Mary. So if you accept that Jesus is the Son of Man and Son of Mary and Son of Adam it is also obvious that you must accept that Jesus became the Son of God before his birth.
He was made as the image of God who is spirit.
We too are made in the image of God but that only relates to what is not seen, our soul and spirit, for the same reason that God is spirit.
It was necessary for Jesus to partake of human flesh to be able to die for us as a sacrificial, first fruits, Lamb from the flock of man.GENESIS 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.This is the first mention of conception in the bible. In which Eve is found to be in the transgression having been deceived.
As a fiting reward (God is always appropriate with His punishments and rewards – right?) she is given multiplied pain in birth and multiplied conception (once a month I think it is).I TIMOTHY 2:12-15
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.Adam was not deceived – Adam was not cursed, the earth was cursed for his sake.
Eve was deceived – She recieved a fitting curse.
So the woman is saved in childbearing, hence the woman's seed.
Could this be one reason for the necessity of the virgin birth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2006,23:42) Hi,
If Jesus was truly conceived from God's Spirit and Mary then that could not be when he became the Son of God. That would make him the Son of God and Mary.
Greetings Nick
The angel Gabriel states it is because of that miraculous conception, why Jesus is called 'the Son of GOD'NASB Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy child shall be called the Son of God.
Hi Adam,
Jesus is the Physical Son of God. It is right that he should be called the Son of God for that reason. But that makes no statement about his being begotten of God alone in the beginning.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 17 2006,13:38) GENESIS 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.This is the first mention of conception in the bible. In which Eve is found to be in the transgression having been deceived.
I TIMOTHY 2:12-15
As a fiting reward (God is always appropriate with His punishments and rewards – right?) she is given multiplied pain in birth and multiplied conception (once a month I think it is).
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.Adam was not deceived – Adam was not cursed, the earth was cursed for his sake.
Eve was deceived – She recieved a fitting curse.
So the woman is saved in childbearing, hence the woman's seed.
Could this be one reason for the necessity of the virgin birth?
Hi Malcolm,
Good old confusing KJV.
Gen 3.16NASB
“To the woman He said
'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall bring forth children..”
Women ovulate once a month, usually painlessly, but do not conceive that often.
1Tim 2.15
'But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self restraint”This book is written to the saved and not the unsaved as with all these books. Any thought that women can save themselves outside of the way of Jesus through bearing children is false.
It is how they can
“work out their salvation with fear and trembling”
after salvation through being born again of water and the Spirit.It is acceptable service to God and unlike the roles appointed to their husbands.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 17 2006,17:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2006,23:42) Hi,
If Jesus was truly conceived from God's Spirit and Mary then that could not be when he became the Son of God. That would make him the Son of God and Mary.
Greetings Nick
The angel Gabriel states it is because of that miraculous conception, why Jesus is called 'the Son of GOD'NASB Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy child shall be called the Son of God.
The reason the prophets were called gods was because God was speaking in them at that point, the Word of the Lord coming to the prophet.If this was just God doing the same then Jesus would be called God, not the Son of God wouldn't he?
When the strength (potency) of a man comes upon a woman, she conceives and bears a son, called a son, and truly a son, a progeny of the father.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2006,18:36) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 17 2006,13:38) GENESIS 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.This is the first mention of conception in the bible. In which Eve is found to be in the transgression having been deceived.
I TIMOTHY 2:12-15
As a fiting reward (God is always appropriate with His punishments and rewards – right?) she is given multiplied pain in birth and multiplied conception (once a month I think it is).
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.Adam was not deceived – Adam was not cursed, the earth was cursed for his sake.
Eve was deceived – She recieved a fitting curse.
So the woman is saved in childbearing, hence the woman's seed.
Could this be one reason for the necessity of the virgin birth?
Hi Malcolm,
Good old confusing KJV.
Gen 3.16NASB
“To the woman He said
'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall bring forth children..”
Women ovulate once a month, usually painlessly, but do not conceive that often.
1Tim 2.15
'But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self restraint”This book is written to the saved and not the unsaved as with all these books. Any thought that women can save themselves outside of the way of Jesus through bearing children is false.
It is how they can
“work out their salvation with fear and trembling”
after salvation through being born again of water and the Spirit.It is acceptable service to God and unlike the roles appointed to their husbands.
Hi Nick
Multiplied ovulation would result in multiplied opportunity for conception would it not? It is interesting that pleasure is a great motivating factor for human activity in this area. Whereas in nature the main motivation for this activity is reproduction for continuation of the species. But human beings have never been known to be great at existing within the natural equuilibrium of God's creation.And yes I know that man, woman or child has no other provided way outside of spiritual rebirth upon baptism in obedience of faith. Yet it is interesting that these two verses (gen 3:16 & 1 Tim 2:15) contain so much parallelsim.
My point here is that by man came death, (the curse of the earth) and by man comes the ressurection of the dead, (Christ in the form of dust – the second Adam – to be the payment for the penalty of the curse of the earth)
It is God's fitting sense of restitution and restoring of balance.
So by woman came the transgression – by woman comes also the means to its restitution. It seems a fitting way to right the scales – but that is just my opinion…
We find in heaven they are neither male or female but are like the angels.
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