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Hi Malcolm,
True, Adam rebelled and chose to serve the god of this world and we all suffered the consequences. So you say Christ was not one of our nature and dust/flesh but a new creation? Is this written?REVELATION 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;Jesus did not become the first of this new race upon his resurrection, he was born the second Adam, he did not become the second Adam upon resurrection.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 28 2006,01:34) REVELATION 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Hi Malcolm,
Some have used this verse to suggest the Word was created but he was begotten of God.
This means instead surely all creation began with him and through him.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,03:52) Nick wrote: Quote Hi WIT,
Who is the father of Jesus Christ?Romans 1:1-4
Quote Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Yashua is the unique son of YHWH, chosen by Him to judge the world. He is the first and last of his kind, as there will never be another son of YHWH equal to him in stature. But, by birth, (i.e. according to the flesh), he is David's son, through his father Joseph.
JHi WIT,
So when was the Son of God chosen to be a son of God? Is it recorded? Was this some sort of honour for being the best man or was it by some other means of choice? Could any other man have been chosen then?Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,04:03) Maclom wrote: Quote JOHN 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.Now who and what and where was he of? this world?, David?, God?
Malcolm,
Were the people that Messiah was talking to literally from beneath?
(Read John 6:41-59. In the gospel of John, I believe that Messiah speaks metaphorically throughout, even though his words may seem literal. I also believe that many misintepretations have resulted from this, including the Catholic practice of “eating God”.)
Hi WIT,
Thank you for explaining that you cannot accept the words of Jesus in John at face value and thus have declared them allegorical.No one denies that some of scripture and some of John is allegorical but to imply all the words of Jesus are is simply not true.
You have no individual right to do that as in so doing you put yourself above scripture as a judge of the Spirit of God who wrote it through men surely.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,04:03) Maclom wrote: Quote JOHN 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.Now who and what and where was he of? this world?, David?, God?
Malcolm,
Were the people that Messiah was talking to literally from beneath?
(Read John 6:41-59. In the gospel of John, I believe that Messiah speaks metaphorically throughout, even though his words may seem literal. I also believe that many misintepretations have resulted from this, including the Catholic practice of “eating God”.)
Hi WIT,
Jesus is indeed from above-heaven-whence he was sent by the Father. We are from below-we are not from heaven but of the dust of the earth.Hi ,
Jn 17.18
“As thou didst send me into the world, also I have sent them into the world”
This does not speak of place but of the line of authority and of following the Master.
1Cor 11.3
” But I want you to understand that Christ is the the head of every man, and the man is head of the woman, and God is the Head of Christ”Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2006,02:35) Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 28 2006,01:34) REVELATION 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Hi Malcolm,
Some have used this verse to suggest the Word was created but he was begotten of God.
This means instead surely all creation began with him and through him.
Yes Jesus was begotten but when he came to earth a body of creation was prepared for him. If not he could not have been made like us.
Paul says that at the rebirth we are a new creature. Made in his image.Hi,
Paul said he was a new creature. But we will not be physically like to the “man from heaven” till we are raised into an imperishable body like his that he obtained when he was lifted up to whence he came-heaven.oops sorry about the double post…
The flesh is weak but the Spirit is willing…
God made man in the flesh with an inherent weakness, if He did not then man would never have fallen. Man had a possibility not to fall so long as they stayed within the protection and confines of the Word. When they left this protective veil they fell prey to sin.
In the book of Genesis it tells us that they (the man and his wife) were naked but not ashamed, before sin occurred. This nakedness indicates a weakness that was there but not with any shame, because it was veiled by the Word, and they were undefiled.
Once they left the safety of the Word, drawn away by their own lusts and allowed sin to conceive their nakedness became a shame to them, there bodies were defiled by sin.
When we receive the new birth by the Spirit of God, we come back into the safety of God's Word, and though our nakedness, the weakness of our flesh, remains. Yet we have no shame or fear because although the flesh is weak the Spirit of God is willing.
We are counseled by Jesus in Revelation 3:18 to buy white robes so that the shame of our nakedness does not appear. We are to be robed in righteousness by the Word of His Truth.
Paul knew that in his flesh dwelt no good thing, he desired in the inner man to serve God perfectly but found a contradiction in his flesh that caused the expression to be marred.
But we, like Paul can rejoice in the fact that, greater is He that is in me (inner man) than he that is in the world (outer – flesh man)Hi Malcolm,
Man only saw he was naked and became aware of the moral implications when he rebelled and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Hi Malcolm,
There is no direct evil in nakedness. We were better never to have been saddled with conscience issues and the choices they confuse us with.Hi,
Heb 10.3f
“Therefore,when he comes into the world, he says
'Sacrifice and offering you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me;
In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure;'
then I said
'Behold I have come[in the scroll of the book it is written of me]to do your will,O God'”Who says this? Jesus
When? When he comes into the world.
So was it as an infant? No, before his physical birth as he humbled himself and agreed to partake of flesh and submit to the will of God. The body had been prepared for him but he had yet to come in that flesh.If you compare the paraphrased scripture in Ps 40 it reads slightly differently.
Ps 40.6
“Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; my ears you have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
Then I said
'Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart' “ps
1Tim 3.10f
” By common confession, great is the the mystery of godliness
He who was revealed in the flesh
Was vindicated in the Spirit
Seen by angels
Proclaimed among the nations
Believed on in the world
Taken up in glory”So Jesus had godly origins. He was invisible and of the spirit till seen by men and angels as a man. The Spirit proved his mission by the works of God done through him. His gospel of salvation was proclaimed and received and he returned to heaven.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 27 2006,11:19) Nick, I have absolutely not doubt that Yahshua is the prophecied Messiah. I believe this because he is from 'seed of David' as he is the physical son of Joseph and Mary.
I also believe him to be the 'Son of God' for YHWH chose him as his son.
For those that have only started reading from the last couple of pages, and find this topic of interest, the following links are articles that discuss the alleged 'virgin birth'.
Torah of Messiah – Virgin Birth
Virgin Birth – True or False? Fact or Fiction?
On High – Virgin Birth
Hi RR,
I see the author of the article teaches that Jesus is just a man, just a prophet and not really the Son of God, and of course Mary was not a virgin who conceived by the Holy Spirit.He also says the bible is corrupted in the area of his expertise so that Matthew, Luke and of course John have to be read through his looking glasses. There is no proof offered only what are viewed as inconsistencies through the eyes of a believer in the Old Testament only.
Somehow I think God through the Holy Spirit is quite capable of transmitting the truth to us without such so called experts who value their intellect above that Spirit.
To question scripture with a view to a deeper understanding is applauded by God. To reject scripture and teach others to do the same without proper evidence is evil.
Hi Malcolm,
I have yet to get any response to this question.Lk 1.36f
“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also CONCEIVED[4815] a son in her old age; and she who was barren is now in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible to God”
Lk 1.31
“and behold you will CONCEIVE[4815]in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus”
Lk 2.21
“And when eight days had passed, before his circumcision, his name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was CONCEIVED[4815] in the womb”Will you say Elizabeth did not naturally conceive a son?
Then since scriopture uses the same word why do you say Mary did not conceive?JOHN 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.JOHN 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.Same word “send” different application! I'm sure its not the only example in the Word…
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