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Nick,
I have absolutely not doubt that Yahshua is the prophecied Messiah. I believe this because he is from 'seed of David' as he is the physical son of Joseph and Mary.
I also believe him to be the 'Son of God' for YHWH chose him as his son.
For those that have only started reading from the last couple of pages, and find this topic of interest, the following links are articles that discuss the alleged 'virgin birth'.
Torah of Messiah – Virgin Birth
Virgin Birth – True or False? Fact or Fiction?
On High – Virgin BirthNick
Both WhatIsTrue and I have asked you a question that you continue to not answer.
From Me:
The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?From WhatIsTrue:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not?Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.
Hi RR,
Was the Messiah recognised by the masses before he died or was he revealed in retrospect by the followers of Jesus?Hi WIT,
Did any question his sonship to Joseph while he lived? Even those who knew God was his Father never were confused and thought Joseph could thus not be his father. That is because they knew this material world is only a thin veneer over far more deep realities in the Spiritual world where the Son of God had his origins. The Fathership of God has far more importance than any earthly origins or Jesus would not have said
“God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones”MATTHEW 22:41-45
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?MARK 12:35-37
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.LUKE 20:41-44
And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?PSALMS 110:1
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.ACTS 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,HEBREWS 1:4-14
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?REVELATION 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.Looking at the usage of the term Son of David in the new testament we see one recurring scripture namely Psalm 110:1 which was used in 3 of the gospels by Jesus to silence his critics with the following question: if Christ is the son of David then how is he also his Lord?
Then there is Paul's thorough treatment of the same scripture in Hebrews chapter one. I have quoted from verse 4 to 14 because it is all speaking of the idea of a son.
Now it is very clear who's son he is here, not one mention of him being of David. Then there is the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16 where he says he is both the root and offspring of David. Showing his existence spans time before and after the lifetime of David.Quote Matthew 22:41-45 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: ‘The LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”‘? “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” Because the “Master” expected by King David was not only to be his physical descendant, but also David's Master, by virtue of this son's role and appointment by YHWH as YHWH's anointed agent — the long awaited Messiah.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2006,11:33) Hi RR,
Was the Messiah recognised by the masses before he died or was he revealed in retrospect by the followers of Jesus?
NickYou keep throwing questions at me yet you have not answered the questions asked of you:
Quote Both WhatIsTrue and I have asked you a question that you continue to not answer. From Me:
The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?From WhatIsTrue:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not?Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.
Quote MARK 12:35-37
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.Malcom,
Thanks you for bringing this passage up, as it is a perfect example of how the Law and Prophets tie directly to who Yahshua was and is.
It was common in that day, (and even to this day), for the Jewish sages to expect Messiah to be a conquering warrior king, like his father David. But, in this passage, Messiah reminded them, (and us), that he is far greater than his father David. He has been adopted by YHWH to be His very own son whereas David never was.
Let's take a look at how Messiah was using scripture to show this.
In 1 Samuel 24:10, David says this to Saul:
Quote ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the LORD’s anointed.’ Why does David call Saul “lord”? Because Saul was YHWH's annointed one!
When David sought to build the Temple, YHWH sent him this word in 2 Samuel 7:12-14:
Quote When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. So, why does David call this promised son “lord”? Because he is YHWH's annointed one, David's own offspring chosen by YHWH to be YHWH's very own Son! This is what YHWH promised through the prophets.
So, my question, again, for both you and Nick is this:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all?
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
Did any question his sonship to Joseph while he lived?Yes.
Now, can you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Here it is for the fifth or sixth time:
Quote Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all? Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 27 2006,22:04) Quote Matthew 22:41-45 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: ‘The LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”‘? “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” Because the “Master” expected by King David was not only to be his physical descendant, but also David's Master, by virtue of this son's role and appointment by YHWH as YHWH's anointed agent — the long awaited Messiah.
Hi RR,
Do you say the words” master\lord ” and “father/son” are equivalent relationships then.
Nothing means what it says but only what we want it to mean then?
Interesting but a twisting of scripture surely.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,22:43) Nick wrote: Quote Hi WIT,
Did any question his sonship to Joseph while he lived?Yes.
Now, can you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Here it is for the fifth or sixth time:
Quote Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all?
Hiu WIT,
I am not a source of answers but only a fellow student of truth.
Neither do I believe much value is to be gained by the ticking of the boxes or paint by numbers approach to scripture.
So I continue to search and hopefully together we may find eternal answers.Quote (Artizan007 @ April 22 2006,11:49) Hi RR & WIT, Just a quick question,
How could Jesus have been born without sin if he was born of man?
Or is the “Original Sin” doctrine another of the man made doctrines?
Was Jesus the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who died for the sin of the world in your view, or is salvation by some other way, like obedience to the Law or the Word of Christ?
What many people fail to see is that fact that Jesus had no sin whatsoever from his birth. He was made like us, in flesh that could feel tired, get hungry, feel pain, temptation, even as Adam – who was formed uniquely and became a living soul, was called the son of God, and was able to be tempted, in fact was tempted and fell.
The second Adam was also tempted but did not fall, he overcame by the Word of God.
The first Adam had no sin and knew no sin until he came to the knowledge of good and evil through the transgression in the garden.
The second Adam had no sin and knew no sin period.
He became sin when he was betrayed by Judas Iscariot in the Garden of Gethsemane, arrested without a cause, accused and tried without any blame, led to the place of the skull and there made a sacrifice for us.
Jesus challenged the people publicly on at least one occasion, asking them: “which of you can accuse me of sin?” No one could so far as I am aware.
Why is that? Because he kept the Law? I don’t think so.
He also challenged the people who were going to stone a woman for being an adulteress: “which of you are without sin, let him cast the first stone…”
None did, was he the only man who could claim to be without sin? Why?
On many occasions the leaders sought to trap him and expose him to be a sinner, they failed every time.
The fact is as A7 says here that Jesus was the sinless spotless lamb without the taint of human flesh.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,22:41) Quote MARK 12:35-37
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.Malcom,
Thanks you for bringing this passage up, as it is a perfect example of how the Law and Prophets tie directly to who Yahshua was and is.
It was common in that day, (and even to this day), for the Jewish sages to expect Messiah to be a conquering warrior king, like his father David. But, in this passage, Messiah reminded them, (and us), that he is far greater than his father David. He has been adopted by YHWH to be His very own son whereas David never was.
Let's take a look at how Messiah was using scripture to show this.
In 1 Samuel 24:10, David says this to Saul:
Quote ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the LORD’s anointed.’ Why does David call Saul “lord”? Because Saul was YHWH's annointed one!
When David sought to build the Temple, YHWH sent him this word in 2 Samuel 7:12-14:
Quote When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. So, why does David call this promised son “lord”? Because he is YHWH's annointed one, David's own offspring chosen by YHWH to be YHWH's very own Son! This is what YHWH promised through the prophets.
So, my question, again, for both you and Nick is this:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all?
Rev 22:16 Jesus says he is both the root and offspring of David.
That means he was both his ancestor and his descendant…
That is why his question in the gospels put them to silence, John 17:5 lets us know that Jesus had a prior relationship with his Father in heaven.Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 27 2006,23:32) Rev 22:16 Jesus says he is both the root and offspring of David.
That means he was both his ancestor and his descendant…
That is why his question in the gospels put them to silence, John 17:5 lets us know that Jesus had a prior relationship with his Father in heaven.Quote Revelation 22:16 “I, Yahshua, have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.”
Barnes New Testament Notes
I am the root. Not the root in the sense that David sprang from him, as a tree does from a root, but in the sense that he was the “root-shoot” of David, or that he himself sprang from him, as a sprout starts up from a decayed and fallen tree—as of the oak, the willow, the chesnut, etc. See Barnes on “Isa 11:1”. The meaning then is, not that he was the ancestor of David, or that David sprang from him, but that he was the offspring of David, according to the promise in the Scripture, that the Messiah should be descended from him. No argument then, can be derived from this passage in proof of the pre-existence, or the divinity of Christ.
And the offspring. The descendant; the progeny of David: “the seed of David according to the flesh.” See Barnes on “Ro 1:3”. It is not unusual to employ two words in close connexion to express the same idea with some slight shade of difference.Family New Testament Notes
The root and the offspring of David; these words are commonly interpreted to mean that Christ is the root of David—the ground of his being—in respect to his divine nature; and his offspring in respect to his human nature. Compare #Ps 110:1; Mt 22:42-46; Ac 2:34-36. But a comparison with #Isa 11:1, to which there is a plain reference, leads rather to the idea that Christ is called the root and offspring of David as growing out of his root; that is, as being his true progeny according to the promises of the Old Testament.Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 27 2006,23:20) Quote (Artizan007 @ April 22 2006,11:49) Hi RR & WIT, Just a quick question,
How could Jesus have been born without sin if he was born of man?
Or is the “Original Sin” doctrine another of the man made doctrines?
Was Jesus the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who died for the sin of the world in your view, or is salvation by some other way, like obedience to the Law or the Word of Christ?
What many people fail to see is that fact that Jesus had no sin whatsoever from his birth. He was made like us, in flesh that could feel tired, get hungry, feel pain, temptation, even as Adam – who was formed uniquely and became a living soul, was called the son of God, and was able to be tempted, in fact was tempted and fell.
The second Adam was also tempted but did not fall, he overcame by the Word of God.
The first Adam had no sin and knew no sin until he came to the knowledge of good and evil through the transgression in the garden.
The second Adam had no sin and knew no sin period.
He became sin when he was betrayed by Judas Iscariot in the Garden of Gethsemane, arrested without a cause, accused and tried without any blame, led to the place of the skull and there made a sacrifice for us.
Jesus challenged the people publicly on at least one occasion, asking them: “which of you can accuse me of sin?” No one could so far as I am aware.
Why is that? Because he kept the Law? I don’t think so.
He also challenged the people who were going to stone a woman for being an adulteress: “which of you are without sin, let him cast the first stone…”
None did, was he the only man who could claim to be without sin? Why?
On many occasions the leaders sought to trap him and expose him to be a sinner, they failed every time.
The fact is as A7 says here that Jesus was the sinless spotless lamb without the taint of human flesh.
Hi Malcolm,
Was Jesus tempted like us in all ways?
Where does temptation arise in men according to James 1.15?Yes it has two meanings – primary meaning Root
Secondary meaning – that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot;
metaph. offspring, progenySo it is a matter of interpretation
The question is then which sounds more correct
I am the offspring and the offspring of David
or
I am the root and offspring of David
Quite so Malcolm,
Christ was before Abraham and David and John the baptist in timeline.
He is also above them all as well as being greater and higher in authority.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2006,23:55) Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 27 2006,23:20) Quote (Artizan007 @ April 22 2006,11:49) Hi RR & WIT, Just a quick question,
How could Jesus have been born without sin if he was born of man?
Or is the “Original Sin” doctrine another of the man made doctrines?
Was Jesus the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who died for the sin of the world in your view, or is salvation by some other way, like obedience to the Law or the Word of Christ?
What many people fail to see is that fact that Jesus had no sin whatsoever from his birth. He was made like us, in flesh that could feel tired, get hungry, feel pain, temptation, even as Adam – who was formed uniquely and became a living soul, was called the son of God, and was able to be tempted, in fact was tempted and fell.
The second Adam was also tempted but did not fall, he overcame by the Word of God.
The first Adam had no sin and knew no sin until he came to the knowledge of good and evil through the transgression in the garden.
The second Adam had no sin and knew no sin period.
He became sin when he was betrayed by Judas Iscariot in the Garden of Gethsemane, arrested without a cause, accused and tried without any blame, led to the place of the skull and there made a sacrifice for us.
Jesus challenged the people publicly on at least one occasion, asking them: “which of you can accuse me of sin?” No one could so far as I am aware.
Why is that? Because he kept the Law? I don’t think so.
He also challenged the people who were going to stone a woman for being an adulteress: “which of you are without sin, let him cast the first stone…”
None did, was he the only man who could claim to be without sin? Why?
On many occasions the leaders sought to trap him and expose him to be a sinner, they failed every time.
The fact is as A7 says here that Jesus was the sinless spotless lamb without the taint of human flesh.
Hi Malcolm,
Was Jesus tempted like us in all ways?
Where does temptation arise in men according to James 1.15?
Yes Jesus was tempted like us, he had weakness in his flesh as any human being does. But unlike Adam and the rest of us, he did not let that concieve but cast down imagination and every thing that sought to come between him and God, and his mind determined to be subject to the will and Word of God.
Jesus had flesh and therefore was subject to the lust of the flesh, He had eyes and as such had to overcome the lust of the eyes,
He had a mortal life and was succeptible to the pride of life,
As he said in the garden – the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.
He did not overcome by the power of the flesh, he overcame by the Spirit of God.
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