Conception

[dirtyknections]

I believe the human characteristics needed to make a human form of jesus…is what was transfered..remember we are made in God's image…aka the same types of qualities, attributes and characteristics…nothing physical is implied..which is what I am saying…

The “image” of jesus was transfered…aka..he to a lower form..the form of humans…so yes his form changed…but who was did not….remember at his baptism the bible says that, “the heavens were opened up to him”…which to me means he now gained full knowledge of his prior heavenly life experiences and so forth…I do not believe Jesus as a child fully understood his pre-existence

I say this becaus eon my occasions he was found in the temple..listening and asking questions and learning…

He no longer needed to ask questions..after his baptism..because the heavens and the knowledge that lay within them were opened up to him..

[NickHassan]

Hi DK,
An ordinary weak man like us, transformed from above.
His origins are indeed unique but do not alter these things.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,06:16)

Hi not3, It seems conception relates only to the body of flesh. We are made in the image of God but that does not relate to the invisible God. Surely God blew His divine breath into the dust of earth and man became an integrated body, soul and spirit.

Hi Nick,

It seems that there is a difference between the sons of God and THE Son of God.

Hebrews 3:3 on…
Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the buiilder of a house has greater honor than the house itself…….

Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house….

But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house.

Jesus was conceived through God's holy spirit and is considered to be God's ONLY begotten Son. Moses is also a son of God. What do you suppose is the difference?

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ May 30 2008,06:18)

I believe the human characteristics needed to make a human form of jesus…is what was transfered..

I follow you.

But if “Jesus” was already existing in heaven and then transformed into a seed capable of being divided many times over with Mary's DNA…..don't you think your “Jesus” would end up being someone entirely different?

That is….if he indeed went through a true conception? You see my point?

[dirtyknections]

hey Nick…

Yes…you are absoulutely correct…he was indeed a man…but not with the limitations that imperfection bring….and also he was are with “knowledge of the heavens”..”ordinary”…hmmnn..i guess thats really semantics.. he was able to do things that…an ordinary man could not do.. mainly because of his divine attributes

Hey 3in1…yeah i defintely see what you are getting at…but you have to remember he WAS someone “entirely different”…his form was “entirely different”…but WHO he was…aka the human characterics needed needed to make a “lower form” human version of himself…was the same…so basically the Jesus we saw on earth…was the “lower form” of Jesus in heaven…same everything pretty much…different form

When i say remember I am referring to what we know in human terms as a “fleshly body” and in spiritual terms “celestial body”

Basically…like Nick said…

the “conception” refers more to the origination of the flesh than anything else

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,06:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,06:16) Hi not3, It seems conception relates only to the body of flesh. We are made in the image of God but that does not relate to the invisible God. Surely God blew His divine breath into the dust of earth and man became an integrated body, soul and spirit. Hi Nick, It seems that there is a difference between the sons of God and THE Son of God.   Hebrews 3:3 on… Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the buiilder of a house has greater honor than the house itself……. Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house…. But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. Jesus was conceived through God's holy spirit and is considered to be God's ONLY begotten Son.  Moses is also a son of God.  What do you suppose is the difference?

Hi NOT3,
ONLY BEGOTTEN is one greek word MONOGENES
and it does not state he was the only one.

God has many sons.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,07:19)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,06:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,06:16) Hi not3, It seems conception relates only to the body of flesh. We are made in the image of God but that does not relate to the invisible God. Surely God blew His divine breath into the dust of earth and man became an integrated body, soul and spirit. Hi Nick, It seems that there is a difference between the sons of God and THE Son of God.   Hebrews 3:3 on… Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the buiilder of a house has greater honor than the house itself……. Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house…. But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. Jesus was conceived through God's holy spirit and is considered to be God's ONLY begotten Son.  Moses is also a son of God.  What do you suppose is the difference? Hi NOT3, ONLY BEGOTTEN is one greek word MONOGENES and it does not state he was the only one. God has many sons.

There is no difference between the sonship of Jesus and our sonship with God?

No need for the virgin birth then, right? He could have used any son. Maybe one already in existence on earth as well? Then Mary wouldn't have had to go through the humiliation?

[Not3in1]

Hi DK,

Quote

he was able to do things that…an ordinary man could not do.. mainly because of his divine attributes

Jesus told us he could do nothing of himself. That includes being able to do nothing of himself through his divine attributes, imo.

Quote

his form was “entirely different”…

But we are told that his form wasn't different, in fact we are told the opposite – that he was made like us in “every way.”

Quote

the “conception” refers more to the origination of the flesh than anything else

I've always felt that this explaination is a bit too tidy for me. Perhaps it is because I am a women and taking something a sacred as conception/pregnancy/birth and reducing it to having Mary be a “holding place” for a previous lifeform …. it just gets to me. I don't see the reason behind God using conception if it didn't mean something.

[dirtyknections]

hey 3in1..

Quote

Jesus told us he could do nothing of himself. That includes being able to do nothing of himself through his divine attributes, imo.

I agree…the things he was able to accomplish…came from the given to him by Gods holy spirit..His ability to resurrect, walkon water, expel demons, etc came from his divine attributes which was given to him by God thru the holy spirit

Quote

But we are told that his form wasn't different, in fact we are told the opposite – that he was made like us in “every way.”

I agree..maybe you misunderstood…..when I said his was entirely different..i'm talking in reference to his prior celestial form…not our earthly form..

I can sorta under stand how this topic gets to you…my wife is pregnant now with our third (and last) child…

[Not3in1]

DK,

You're in the perfect position then to delve into this topic!

Why do you think God used conception to bring his Son into the world? If Jesus was already existing and all he needed was a “body prepared for him”, why not just do a “Adam trick” and blow some dust around? Or perhaps use a human already alive and transform them by his Spirit?

[dirtyknections]

Wow…very good question…I think it has to do with the fact that thru one man.. Adam..sin came into the world…that “sin” aka imperfection… that Adam passed on was passed on to us thru birth…it is with us at our conception…I think in order to negate that “error in the conception” aka the sin or imperfection……..God felt it necessary to transfer Jesus perfect life in a similar way…. that “broke the chain”…and eliminated the sting of death…which originated from sin and imperfection…

i hope that made sense

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2008,08:25)

DK, You're in the perfect position then to delve into this topic!   Why do you think God used conception to bring his Son into the world?  If Jesus was already existing and all he needed was a “body prepared for him”, why not just do a “Adam trick” and blow some dust around?  Or perhaps use a human already alive and transform them by his Spirit?

Hi not3,
Jesus had to be a SON OF MAN[Adam]

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Peter quoted Moses in Acts 3 about the prophet like to him who would come.
Moses was an ordinary man made extraordinary by God's Spirit.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2008,09:17)

Hi not3, Peter quoted Moses in Acts 3 about the prophet like to him who would come. Moses was an ordinary man made extraordinary by God's Spirit.

Moses is certainly “like” Jesus because they were both born of a women.

But God makes a distinction between them in Hebrews. One is a servant over the house, while the other is a son over the house.

Why do you think that is? What could be the difference?

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
So it is not his nature we are discussing but the roles to which they were appointed?

[Not3in1]

I believe that the two are related (funny choice of words).

Because of Jesus' status as true and literal Son, his position was higher and dearer. Surely a son is more dear to you than a servant?

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Mandy,
Wonderful debate you are involved into. I appreciate it and my wishes are with you. Being a woman you are not weak but you are strong in the Lord. Do continue with your pondering over the conception of Jesus.
Hey DK and Nick, don't you both appreciate Not3in1? You always want to prove your pre-existence of Jesus in any of the topics like this. You can not win this arguement in any form because it is not available in the Bible. See the beautiful explanation given by Mandy. Conception is a biological term where a human being (living being) takes its origin called its genesis. How can you fuse somebody already existing as an immortal being, into a conception process. You are going against the nature and God's creation. If so God could have transferred such existing being into a baby directly as we indian believe in incarnation and reincarnation but not for Jew.
Please read and re-read Not3in1 posts you will appreciate them.
Peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
The HOWS are often not of our province of understanding.
What is written is true.

[Not3in1]

Nick,

The HOWS are often explained by example or history. I don't believe God likes to through his creation into confusion.

Just like we teach our children by example, he also uses what we already know to show us the way. We build concept upon concept.

Otherwise we are left to our own imaginations and assumptions. You know where that leads don't you? To theories of Jesus' actual preexistence before his birth!

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ May 31 2008,14:39)

If so God could have transferred such existing being into a baby directly as we indian believe in incarnation and reincarnation but not for Jew.

Exactly, bro!

Preexistence definitely lends itself to incarnation theories and the trinity belief. That is why those that hold to these theories have so much in common with trinitarians, imo.

That is why those on this site that are not trinitarians have been mistaken as such by newcomers.

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