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Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:12) The reason he did not sin was not that he *couldn't* sin, but that God's spirit was with him from birth. Those who are born *of* God do not go on sinning, for they cannot. They are born of imperishable seed. So, Jesus could sin but didn't with the added help of his very origin. How am I doing? Do I have myself in a corner yet? 
He he….afraid so Not3….God's spirit was with JTB from birth also, and yet he was not sinless. There is more to it that that. In Col 2:9 we read that “For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”. What do you make of this verse?
Hi Is 1.18,
What sin would you accuse JTB of?
Perhaps doubt?Having spoken so confidently about the Word made flesh in Jn 1 he sends disciples to Jesus to make sure.
Mt11
1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
But only Christ was filled with the fullness. God's power shows up best in weak vessels so Jesus must have been weak in himself to so fully show the power of God.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness ” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.Paul boasted of his weakness.
We are told Christ learned by suffering and what son does not feel the punishment of a good father?
Heb 12
” 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”
Did this not apply first to Jesus as his Father kept him from sin? We are also told angels were ready to catch him lest he injured himself and they ministered to him again showing the fatherhood of God expressed in his life keep him from possible failure of his mission.
Is 53 does not show a strong and confident superman that we cannot follow. God's power transformed him when he was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan.
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2007,23:20) But to believe fully as you seem to, Mary would no longer have been a virgin.
Oh, my dear brother! Thank you for clearing this up for me. I see your reluctance to believe God provided the sperm if you believe that would not make Mary a virgin.Listen, God and Mary did not have to copulate for God (as Jesus' “source”) to provide what was needed. Rest assured that Mary had been with no man when she conceived Jesus. Nor had she “been with” God. The holy Spirit of God “overshadowed” Mary and she conceived. It was a miraculous event that placed what was needed (in this case it was sperm) inside of Mary. Does this make sense?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2007,23:32) Hi Not3in1, Here is the definition of conceive in the Strongs concordance.
1) to seize, take: one as prisoner
2) to conceive, of a woman
a) metaph. of lust whose impulses a man indulges
3) to seize for one's self
a) in a hostile sense, to make (one a permanent) prisoner
4) to take hold together with one, to assist, help, to succour
Doesn't sound exactly like the definition that Webster gives.
Tim
Actually it does sound like the definition of Webster's.What about #2?
Tell me more about the other word – “syllambano”?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2007,23:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,15:48) Tim, you say that Mary provided half and “by whatever means that He used, God is the Father of Jesus.” Why not just believe that he provided what was needed (sperm)? It doesn't have to be HIS sperm – is this what possibly offends you? I don't know….. But there doesn't seem to be a reason not to believe he provided the sperm versus just a vague “whatever means….”?
Hi Not3in1,I am curious, do you think that God provided the sperm of someone else, perhaps David. After all in the book of Luke it says,
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”So was David his real father?
I know, there were a lot of posts concerning your reply.
But it raised a lot of questions in my mind. I enjoy your thoughts because they are in many ways so similar my own.Tim
Hi Tim,Thanks for your post.
I believe God wanted his own Son. I think that God wanted something for himself (after all, he does everything for everyone else all the time
) that being said, he provided a sperm because a sperm is what was needed to create a child. I do not believe that God has a penis, for example. Although when my children were very young, they believed that when it rained, God must be peeing! Ha! Good grief!I believe God supernaturally provided a sperm that had his code (DNA). Trinitarians will all yell, “But God will not share his glory with another!” I also believe this is true. I believe that God will not share his glory as the one true God with another. Jesus has glory as the only begotten Son – that is a tad bit different, I would say.
Jesus is a blood relative of King David. As such, David is his father (and so is Abraham, for that matter). But God is the true Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God's *only* begotten Son. That's what makes him so special!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,06:45) Hi Is 1.18,
What sin would you accuse JTB of?
Perhaps doubt?
Huh?….are you saying you disagree with me when I state that JTB was a sinner??It's not a radical view.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,18:04) Regarding Col 2:9 – if this is to mean that Jesus had the fullness of Deity and that is why he didn't sin…..then how come I still sin? Because the next verse says I have been given this *fullness* in Christ?
Here are the important words in the verse:“For in Him dwells (katoikei) all the fullness (pleroma) of the Deity (theotes) bodily (somatikos).”
“katoikeo” – meaning “to permanently settle down in a dwelling. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action.
“pleroma”- indicating that which “is filled up.”
“somatikos” – meaning “corporeally” or “physically”
“Theotes” – used as an abstract noun for ‘theos’.
Joseph H. Thayer, the Unitarian scholar, defines “theotes”, in his lexicon, as follows:
“Theotes…(deitas, Tertullian, Augustine) deity i.e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col 2:9”
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT words records this:
”…But in the second passage (Col. 2:9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son” (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotes indicates the “Divine” essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His “Divine” nature and properties.Colossians 2:9 does not indicate that Jesus was filled with the Spirit of the Father Himself, Paul would have used the noun ’theos’ if he wanted to convey this. Nor can you translate “theotes” to mean a simple quality or attribute (i.e., theios), it goes well beyond this, and instead refers to ‘divine essence’ or simply put “being God”!! So considering the all the Greek in this verse, it's evident that Paul affirmation was that the fullness of the divine essence has permanently settled in Jesus' body. This is an exceptionally emphatic statement. Theotes has a very special significance, nowhere in scripture is it used in relation to other men – only Yeshua.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:10) “somatikos” – meaning “corporeally” or “physically”
I know this may be a stupid question, but does this mean that Jesus was only filled with Deity “physically”?When he died (physically), did he lose that fullness of deity?
I have to run my son to baseball, but thanks for the greek words, I'm gonna have to look at them for a while before I give a thoughtful response.
What are ya a Bible college student or something, Isaiah?
Smarty pants with the Greek!Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:10) indicates the “Divine” essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His “Divine” nature and properties. Theotes has a very special significance, nowhere in scripture is it used in relation to other men – only Yeshua.
I believe that Jesus is divine; that is, he has the personality, attributes and essence that his Father passed on to him. Remembering that God will not share his glory *as God* with another.Theotes is nowhere shown to relate to other men because no other man is God's begotten Son. Right?
Hi not3,
God was in Christ, as His Spirit, to the fullness of deity.
Jn 3
” 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. “God's Spirit never left Christ even when he died and his own spirit did.
Acts 2
” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:29) God's Spirit never left Christ even when he died and his own spirit did.
Why did Jesus call out that God had forsaken him?Hi Not3,
He was quoting scripture.
He felt alone and separate from his Father burdened by the sins of the World.
But, despite his pain and his feelings of lonliness and grief, God was still in him reconciling that world to Himself.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:58) Hi Not3,
He was quoting scripture.
He felt alone and separate from his Father burdened by the sins of the World.
But, despite his pain and his feelings of lonliness and grief, God was still in him reconciling that world to Himself.
When Jesus became sin for the whole world…..I don't think God could look on sin – could he?A popular message from the pulpit is that God had to “turn away” when Jesus became sin because God cannot look on sin? I always thought that is why Jesus called out to God and said, “Why have you forsaken me?” I don't know…
Hi not3,
He was still a clean vessel fit to fully contain the Spirit of God as he had not sinned and sin could not live in him.
But to his account was ascribed the sins of all men.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2007,13:01) I know this may be a stupid question, but does this mean that Jesus was only filled with Deity “physically”?
From my limited knowledge I would say that Paul was saying that the very essence of God infused every cell in His body. He was literally 'walking divinity'. I actually like the way Barnes puts it:Quote Bodily – ͂ sōmatikōs . This word also is found nowhere else in the New Testament, though the adjective bodily – ̀ sōmatikos – occurs twice; Luke 3:22, “in a bodily shape;” and I Timothy 4:8, “for bodily exercise profiteth little.” The word means, “having a bodily appearance, instead of existing or appearing in a spiritual form;” and the fair sense of the phrase is, that the fullness of the divine nature became incarnate, and was indwelling in the body of the Redeemer. It does not meet the case to say, as Crellius does, that the “whole divine will was in him,” for the word ́ theotē – “godhead” – does not mean the will of God; and it is as certainly true that the inspired prophets were under the control of the divine will, as that the Saviour was. Nor can it mean, as Socinus supposes, that the fulness of divine knowledge dwelt in him, for this is not the proper meaning of the word ( ́ theotēs ) “godhead;” nor can it mean, for the same reason, that a fullness of divine gifts was intrusted to him. The language is such as would be obviously employed on the supposition that God became incarnate, and appeared in human form; and there is no other idea which it so naturally expresses, nor is there any other which it can be made to express without a forced construction. The meaning is, that it was not anyone attribute of the Deity that became incarnate in the Saviour; that he was not merely endowed with the knowledge, or the power, or the wisdom of God; but that the whole Deity thus became incarnate, and appeared in human form; compare John 14:9; John 1:18. No language could, therefore, more clearly demonstrate the divinity of Christ. Of what mere man – of what angel, could it be used?
http://bibletools.org/….]Quote When he died (physically), did he lose that fullness of deity?
No. Not if John 19:37 is anything to go by…..Quote I have to run my son to baseball, but thanks for the greek words, I'm gonna have to look at them for a while before I give a thoughtful response.
Okay. I look forward to reading it.Quote What are ya a Bible college student or something, Isaiah?
Smarty pants with the Greek!
I'm a student of the Bible. Just like you.Hi Is 1.18
You say
“From my limited knowledge I would say that Paul was saying that the very essence of God infused every cell in His body. He was literally 'walking divinity'. I actually like the way Barnes puts it:”Not a biblical concept.
Rather God was IN HIM.Hi Is 1.18,
CF
2Cor 5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.col2
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
This does not describe him.
It tells us what was in him.
Number 2320
Transliteration:
theotes {theh-ot'-ace}
Word Origin:
from 2316
TDNT:
3:119,322
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
Godhead 1Total: 1
Definition:
deity
the state of being God, Godhead For Synonyms see entry 5849Paul, speaking of men:
1 Corinthians 3 16-17
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God [Gr. theos] and that the Spirit of God [Gr. theos] dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God [Gr. theos], God will destroy him, for the temple of God [Gr. theos] is holy, and that is what you are.Paul, speaking of Jesus:
Colossians 2:9
9For in Him all the fullness of Deity [Gr. theotes] dwells in bodily formDifferent words. Entirely different meanings.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,21:43) Hi Is 1.18,
CF
2Cor 5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.col2
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
This does not describe him.
It tells us what was in him.
Number 2320
Transliteration:
theotes {theh-ot'-ace}
Word Origin:
from 2316
TDNT:
3:119,322
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
Godhead 1Total: 1
Definition:
deity
the state of being God, Godhead For Synonyms see entry 5849
Yes, the definition for “deity” in Col 2:9 is “the state of being God”.That's not something I'm going to disagree with.
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