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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2007,18:39) Hi not3,
At the Jordan.
NH,
IYO, was Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit before baptism at the Jordan?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,16:01) Hi not3,
Paul lived in a tent of flesh.
2Cor 5
” 1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. “
While would you make Christ different?
Ha….it is not me who is trying to make Jesus different from Paul, it is you my dear brother.Paul was conceived and born. He has a natural body. He will give up that natural body for a spiritual one – this is our hope as well?
If you would like to compare Jesus to Paul, I would be more than happy to do that. However Paul was not preexistent, and Paul began at conception. Your Jesus is quite different from Paul in those respects.
Hi Is 1.18,
Not at all.
God, his father, was with him and taught him to value and gather the treasures in the Word.
Then to fulfill all righteousness he submitted to water baptism and was baptised in the Spirit of God at the Jordan.Hi Is 1.18,
No.
He was conceived of God by the Spirit but was a weak and puny man just like you and I.That's interesting. So you are saying that a “weak and puny man” lived sinlessly for 30 years in succession. How do you explain that?
Hi Is 1.18,
He was born of Mary and shared her estate.
He was tempted in all ways but never once sinned.
God was with him guiding him and he could never have a better Dad.And although John the Baptiser was “filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb” (Luke 1:15), Yeshua wasn't?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,16:25) Hi Is 1.18,
He was born of Mary and shared her estate.
He was tempted in all ways but never once sinned.
God was with him guiding him and he could never have a better Dad.
An empty vessel (your words) is capable of 30 years of sinless existence? I think that's an untenable notion….Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,16:25) Hi Is 1.18,
He was born of Mary and shared her estate.
He was tempted in all ways but never once sinned.
God was with him guiding him and he could never have a better Dad.
Really, Nick, I allow God to guide me but I still sin.There has to be more to it than this?
Humor me.
With my ideas on Jesus being a true and literal son of God, he would naturally be born with God's divine essence. But because he was not God, himself, but God's Son – he was able to be tempted as we are.
The reason he did not sin was not that he *couldn't* sin, but that God's spirit was with him from birth. Those who are born *of* God do not go on sinning, for they cannot. They are born of imperishable seed. So, Jesus could sin but didn't with the added help of his very origin. How am I doing? Do I have myself in a corner yet?
Um, let's see……if Jesus had some intristic advantage over us (having the spirit in him since birth), could he be considered made like his brothers in all ways? Maybe not? However we do have access to the divine nature….maybe that is what that means? Ponder….
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:12) The reason he did not sin was not that he *couldn't* sin, but that God's spirit was with him from birth. Those who are born *of* God do not go on sinning, for they cannot. They are born of imperishable seed. So, Jesus could sin but didn't with the added help of his very origin. How am I doing? Do I have myself in a corner yet?
He he….afraid so Not3….God's spirit was with JTB from birth also, and yet he was not sinless. There is more to it that that. In Col 2:9 we read that “For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”. What do you make of this verse?The corner is quite comfortable tonight……
I've been here a time or two before, so it's familiar enough.Well, that is true that John the Baptist had the spirit but was a sinful man. How about this…..is there a difference between the *gift* of the holy Spirit which John had and the indwelling of the holy Spirit which Jesus had?
Regarding Col 2:9 – if this is to mean that Jesus had the fullness of Deity and that is why he didn't sin…..then how come I still sin? Because the next verse says I have been given this *fullness* in Christ?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,16:26) And although John the Baptiser was “filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb” (Luke 1:15), Yeshua wasn't?
Hi Is 1.18,
Do you find it written?Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,16:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,16:25) Hi Is 1.18,
He was born of Mary and shared her estate.
He was tempted in all ways but never once sinned.
God was with him guiding him and he could never have a better Dad.
An empty vessel (your words) is capable of 30 years of sinless existence? I think that's an untenable notion….
HiIs 1.18,
Fortunately our notions are not relevant.
What is written?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,15:48) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2007,12:35) I think that I have to agree with Nick here.
The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and caused her to conceive Jesus in her womb.
I doubt that her egg was impregnated with a sperm though.
I even doubt that if a paternity test was given that the DNA would prove God to be the father of Jesus.God's way is a higher way and He could have made his word become flesh in Mary by ways that we could not understand.
That being said, you are correct that Mary provided at least half of what was required to complete the pregnancy. And by what ever means that He used, God is the father of Jesus.
It is most curious to me why men love to deny that Jesus was truly conceived? Is it that it puts Jesus more on par with yourself? Why is it so difficult to imagine that God is truly a Father? And would it be so terrible that the Father, being the source of Jesus – provided what was needed? That being a sperm to penetrate Mary's ovum to create a baby?Or do you believe as Nick does – that Jesus was already preexisted and was merely placed in Mary's womb to receive flesh? Maybe so…..
Hi Not3in1,You should know from my previous posts that I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed His birth.
But to believe fully as you seem to, Mary would no longer have been a virgin.Do you think that it would have been impossible for God to have made Mary pregnant in some devine way? I have seen God remove a tumor that doctors said could not be cured,
He did not use a scalpal.Tim
Hi Not3in1,
Check out a concordance and look at the definition of the Greek word syllambano.
That was the word translated as conceived in Luke.
One of the reasons that I agreed with what Nick said was that syllambano does
not mean conceived in the way that we understand it, or your dictionary describes it.Tim
Hi Not3in1,
Here is the definition of conceive in the Strongs concordance.
1) to seize, take: one as prisoner
2) to conceive, of a woman
a) metaph. of lust whose impulses a man indulges
3) to seize for one's self
a) in a hostile sense, to make (one a permanent) prisoner
4) to take hold together with one, to assist, help, to succour
Doesn't sound exactly like the definition that Webster gives.
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,15:48) Tim, you say that Mary provided half and “by whatever means that He used, God is the Father of Jesus.” Why not just believe that he provided what was needed (sperm)? It doesn't have to be HIS sperm – is this what possibly offends you? I don't know….. But there doesn't seem to be a reason not to believe he provided the sperm versus just a vague “whatever means….”?
Hi Not3in1,I am curious, do you think that God provided the sperm of someone else, perhaps David. After all in the book of Luke it says,
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”So was David his real father?
I know, there were a lot of posts concerning your reply.
But it raised a lot of questions in my mind. I enjoy your thoughts because they are in many ways so similar my own.Tim
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:12) The reason he did not sin was not that he *couldn't* sin, but that God's spirit was with him from birth. Those who are born *of* God do not go on sinning, for they cannot. They are born of imperishable seed. So, Jesus could sin but didn't with the added help of his very origin. How am I doing? Do I have myself in a corner yet?
He he….afraid so Not3….God's spirit was with JTB from birth also, and yet he was not sinless. There is more to it that that. In Col 2:9 we read that “For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”. What do you make of this verse?
Hi Is 1.18,
What sin would you accuse JTB of?
Perhaps doubt?Having spoken so confidently about the Word made flesh in Jn 1 he sends disciples to Jesus to make sure.
Mt11
1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
But only Christ was filled with the fullness. God's power shows up best in weak vessels so Jesus must have been weak in himself to so fully show the power of God.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness ” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.Paul boasted of his weakness.
We are told Christ learned by suffering and what son does not feel the punishment of a good father?
Heb 12
” 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”
Did this not apply first to Jesus as his Father kept him from sin? We are also told angels were ready to catch him lest he injured himself and they ministered to him again showing the fatherhood of God expressed in his life keep him from possible failure of his mission.
Is 53 does not show a strong and confident superman that we cannot follow. God's power transformed him when he was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan.
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