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Jesus is the result of both parents. He is a combination of both God and Mary; he is a legitimate son (just as we are legitimate children of our parents). Jesus, therefore; is a new individual – never before existed until he was born (for how could he? He is a combination of both parents).
The Bible teaches us that Jesus was conceived of God's holy spirit and Mary. To believe otherwise is to go beyond what is written, in my *sometimes* humble opinion.
Hinot3,
God defines man in two ways-inner man and outer man.
“Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return”
Christ was as us as outer man, and as us in soul and spirit.Nick, unfortunately we are back to your original idea. I know scripture speaks to both the inner and the outer man, but we were discussing conception. Are you willing to abandon the simple idea of conception as it applies to our Lord's birth? If so, then you will need to find scripture that explains his “conception” as being something other-than a true conception.
Hi not3,
Ps 139
“13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.”
Here the person speaks of their being covered in the womb, the substance of the body being wrought of the dust of the earth. Surely this is conception of an embryo?
Yes, God designed the conception process. In verse 16 it points out that before conception and subsequent birth there were no days for the unborn – no existence. This is a curious look at the beginning of individuals. Life begins at conception.
But back to our discussion.
If indeed conception considers the whole man, as we have discussed; that includes spirit as well, and it all is derived from both parents who contribute……where does that leave your feelings towards a pre-existence Word/son? And others, if you agree with our line of reasoning, how does that leave your feelings surrounding the incarnation?
Hi not3,
Th false doctrine of incarnation is that God came in flesh.[1Jn4. 2Jn]
We do know that Christ came in the flesh by the same verses.
He partook of our flesh nature.
Heb 2
” 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Was Jesus conceived in the normal way as we have discussed? If so, then he is a new individual – never existed before – either in heaven as a spirit son or anything else. Why? Because he is a combination of God and Mary. Do you not agree?
Hi not3,
Scripture says he was conceived using the same words applied to John the Baptist.
It would be surmising to say it was different as we do not understand conception fully.What do we not understand about conception? The medical scientist have a pretty complete grasp on what contributes to the unborn.
John the Baptist was a combination of his parents. We are a combination of our parents. Jesus is a combination of his parents.
If this is true, then Jesus is a *new* individual. In order for your theory of a pre-existent spirit son to be true, the spirit son would have to be an incarnation of sorts? To come down from heaven and be fused to Mary's contribution – that would alter the spirit son.
Reasoning: Spirit son, then sent down to Mary, “conception” took place (true conception), altered spirit son and now his name is Jesus.
?
Hi not3,
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:So the one for whom that body was prepared already existed.
Hi Nick,
You presuppose that the Word existed as a spirit son prior to birth, and so you are looking at this verse in Hebrews as proof to what you already believe.However, this verse can lend itself to also embrace the idea that God is preparing a way for his son to enter the world. Of course his son will have a body – he will be born of a women.
Jesus “came into the world” because God, his Father, is in heaven. So it can be said of Jesus that he “came down from heaven” and so on. God provided what was needed. God is in heaven. Anything the Father gives *comes down from heaven.*
I believe the main thrust of Hebrews 10:5 is not that he took on a body that was already prepared for him (because logically how could the body be already prepared for him when he hadn't been born into it yet?), but rather Jesus is trying to teach us that we can do nothing to attain salvation……….sacrifices and offerings will be no more…………….Jesus has to pay the penalty with his body.
Hi not3,
Going back from Hebrews 10 to ps 40
” 5Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
11Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.
12For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.
13Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me.
14Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
15Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha.
16Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.
17But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.”
Christ speaks of himself before he was born, in prophecy.
Nick, are you really willing to ascribe Psalm 40 to our pre-existent Lord? Or maybe only parts of it are him speaking of himself? The reason I ask is that vs. 12 says of the writer: “….my sins have overtaken me…….hairs on my head…..” It ascribes sin to an apparent “man” who has hair on his head. Could this be the spirit son prior to birth?
Hi not3,
It is not unusual for the future to be shown as the present.
Sometimes a psalm is partly this and partly that and so we need the Spirit to help us discern which is which.
Some of the psalm clearly relates to his last hours.HEB 10
“5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;”
He, the obedient servant Christ who came, speaks about a body being prepared for him.
However, this is a Psalm of David isn't it? David wrote it. So you are saying that the pre-existing spirit Son prophesied through David? Did the spirit Son do that anywhere else?
This is a bit of stretch for me, I'll confess. I will say again that the main thrust of Hebrews 10 is the fact that sacrifices are no longer needed because of Christ and the saving sacrifice of the cross. If the main thrust was incarnation (of sorts), I believe it would have had a different emphasis, don't you?
“…….we have been made holy through the sacrifice of they body of Jesus Christ once and for all.”
The theory of the spirit son taking on flesh is not really elaborated on anywhere that I am aware of? It may be eluded to here and there, but such a teaching would definitely deserve more scroll-time, don't you think? Whereas, conception is pure and it's beginning, middle, and end we comprehend well.
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