Conception

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
You misunderstand.
My claim is the same as that made by God about His Son,
as Jesus made about himself,
as Peter and John and Paul say
that
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.
Around that basic truth I try ro resolve as best I can the genologocal aspects of his human nature in the knowledge that God can raise up sons of David or Abraham or Joseph from these stones.

[Ramblinrose]

Exodus 4:22  “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

1 Chronicles 28:6  “Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.

Revelation 21:7  “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
So if you were to accept that Jesus Christ really was
the monogenes Son of God
and son by the Spirit in Mary
how would you resolve these other claims of sonship?

[Ramblinrose]

No Nick,

You tell me how YOU resolve them.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Workin on it. t'aint easy. But letting go of the anchor rope would not help either.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote

Hi RR, We know the only begotten Son of God was sent into the world [1Jn 4.9]. We know the Word was with God in the beginning, an era before time. Sons derive life and being from their parents so he derives his monogenes being as an image of God before the era of time and that is all we can know about his beginnings. We know he had been in heaven and had seen the Father.

Nick,

Show me the above in scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Jn 1.1
1Jn 4.9,
Coll 1.15-17,
Jn 1.14-15,
Jn 1.30,
Jn 3.17,
Jn 6.33-38,
Jn 6.57-62,
Jn 8.23-29,
Jn 8.42,
Jn 16.28,
Jn 17.5,
Jn 17.13,
Jn 17.25,
etc

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,22:11)

Quote (Ramblinrose @ Aug. 03 2006,21:51) Nick, I said he is the CHOOSEN Son of God. You have said that he existed in some form before his birth. Did he always exist? When did he begin to exist? How did he come into being? At what point did he come into being? Hi RR, We know the only begotten Son of God was sent into the world [1Jn 4.9]. We know the Word was with God in the beginning, an era before time. Sons derive life and being from their parents so he derives his monogenes being as an image of God before the era of time and that is all we can know about his beginnings. We know he had been in heaven and had seen the Father. We are adopted sons. Sons who are chosen as sons are adopted. So Jesus is the adopted son of God???

Hi Nick

You say we are adopted sons of God, how do you view adoption as the word is used in the scriptures?

As I understand it adoption in the eastern tradition of the time was not as we know it today.

Firstly adoption was a public ceremony in which the father of a son gave witness that his son was now considered by him to be a worthy heir and therefore authorised to act and speak on his behalf in matters regarding the father's estate.

Secondly – unlike adoption as we have it in the west today, eastern adoption was of a natural son by the blood father of that son. So you could not be adopted unless you were of the same bloodline (and hence same lilfe of that father)

In this sense therefore Paul speaked of the heir being under tutors and no different from a servant until the time appointed of the father (i.e. the time of adoption)

With this in view – The public declaration of God on two seperate occasions, seem to be candidates for what could be understood to be an adoption ceremony. Namely at the river Jordan and upon Mount Transfiguration.

What are your thoughts?

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
God said
“This is my Son in whom I am well pleased”
No mention of any adoption claim there.
Scripture does say we are adopted sons.
It never says that of
THE Son of God.

[malcolm ferris]

From my understanding of the word “chosen” – it can mean to select from a range of choices, or to prefer above others, or to determine or decide upon.

You stress that it is the fact of being chosen that qualifies adoption.
What is this adoption?
As I understand it, it is an acknowledgement of worthiness to be considered a son, a confirmation that the son is worthy of this position.

So the question then hangs – is Jesus a chosen son? was he chosen of the Father?
Did the father acknowledge him publically as the heir?
Is he preferred above others?

[NickHassan]

H
Hi Malcolm,
Before we consider in what other different ways Jesus can be considered a SON of God

By choice
By adoption,
By appointment,
By title
etc etc as we hear oftentimes here

Why not do the most amazing thing and believe he actually just is what the bible says

The Son of God?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,00:20)

H Hi Malcolm, Before we consider in what other different ways Jesus can be considered a SON of God By choice By adoption, By appointment, By title etc etc as we hear oftentimes here Why not do the most amazing thing and believe he actually just is what the bible says The Son of God?

Amen! See we agree on something

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,00:20)

H Hi Malcolm, Before we consider in what other different ways Jesus can be considered a SON of God By choice By adoption, By appointment, By title etc etc as we hear oftentimes here Why not do the most amazing thing and believe he actually just is what the bible says The Son of God?

Thanks for the fine invitation Nick, are you suggesting I do not belive he is the Son of God?

Though he were a son – yet he learned obedience – obedience to the will and purpose of his Father.
He showed himself to be a worthy heir – as all heavens witness to in the book of Revelation.
He is declared to be the Son of God with authority – the authority to act on his Father's behalf and on our behalf before his Father.

Was he given this authority? Yes.
Is he the heir apparent? Yes.

btw – You still haven't told my how you view this word adoption – or perhaps you have…

Can anyone else shed any light on this? Am I correct in what I said about the eastern view of adoption – or are my sources wrong?

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“Was he given this authority? Yes.
Is he the heir apparent? Yes. “

Was he given sonship?
No he IS the Son of God.

[malcolm ferris]

I am not contesting this, in the eastern ceremony of adoption – it was not a question of whether the son to be adopted was a son! In order to be adopted he had first to be a son.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,03:42)

Hi RR, So if you were to accept that Jesus Christ really was the monogenes Son of God and son by the Spirit in Mary how would you resolve these other claims of sonship?

Hi RR, Nick et al:

Here's my proposal or theory.  I'd be interested to know why this would be unscriptural on either side of the debate:

I accept that the prophets had it right and that the Christ must be genetically related to David, and that according to the genealogical lists in Matthew and Luke, that link came through Joseph and not Mary, as we suppose.  Just going by what's listed.

I also accept that Joseph did not know Mary and therefore, the conception of Christ was as the scriptures describe in Luke 1 and Matthew 1.

How can this be?

It seemes very reasonable to me at this point, given the information above, to consider that John 1:13 is what happened to Mary.  Or put another way, that what happened to Mary is what happens to us when we become born of the spirit.  Thus the conception of Christ is further shown through John 1:13 and John 3 in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus, if that makes sense.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent,* nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.*”

4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit* gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You* must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“How can this be?” Cubes asks!

I believe that's what happened.  The hows of it is known best to God but we know that one day, believing on the name of Jesus according to John 3:16, we were born again by the spirit and although we could experience the effect of this birth, we could not see it happening, just as with the wind.

In this case, Mary went on to carry a baby to term (we would imagine).  A baby who had human genes like his brethren, and yet, at the same time having spirit genes from the Power on high, like his brethren in John 1:12f.

Our parents had knowledge of our conception whereas Joseph had not, and I am supposing that God may have as well used the technique he used on Adam on Joseph:  in that he put him to sleep and removed the necessary part (seed) and formed Christ, complete with his spirit as stated in the conception passages regarding Christ.

In this manner, Mary would have remained a virgin, Jesus would have been born out of the seed of David and so fulfill the prophecies, it would explain Joseph's lack of knowledge and why he needed a dream to assure him of Mary's virtue, and most importantly Jesus would still have been conceived directly by God through his spirit and be the Son of God.  Jesus could also be said to be one of us, a real brethren of humanity, even made a little lower than the angels.  

What is lacking?

Blessings.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,23:09)

Hi RR, Jn 1.1 1Jn 4.9, Coll 1.15-17, Jn 1.14-15, Jn 1.30, Jn 3.17, Jn 6.33-38, Jn 6.57-62, Jn 8.23-29, Jn 8.42, Jn 16.28, Jn 17.5, Jn 17.13, Jn 17.25, etc

Nick,

These verse have been covered some in this topic and some in other topics.

(Gotta get of this ride, making me dizzy).

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 04 2006,02:40)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,03:42) Hi RR, So if you were to accept that Jesus Christ really was the monogenes Son of God and son by the Spirit in Mary how would you resolve these other claims of sonship? Hi RR, Nick et al: Here's my proposal or theory.  I'd be interested to know why this would be unscriptural on either side of the debate: I accept that the prophets had it right and that the Christ must be genetically related to David, and that according to the genealogical lists in Matthew and Luke, that link came through Joseph and not Mary, as we suppose.  Just going by what's listed. I also accept that Joseph did not know Mary and therefore, the conception of Christ was as the scriptures describe in Luke 1 and Matthew 1. How can this be? It seemes very reasonable to me at this point, given the information above, to consider that John 1:13 is what happened to Mary.  Or put another way, that what happened to Mary is what happens to us when we become born of the spirit.  Thus the conception of Christ is further shown through John 1:13 and John 3 in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus, if that makes sense. John 1:13 children born not of natural descent,* nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.*” 4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit* gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You* must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “How can this be?” Cubes asks! I believe that's what happened.  The hows of it is known best to God but we know that one day, believing on the name of Jesus according to John 3:16, we were born again by the spirit and although we could experience the effect of this birth, we could not see it happening, just as with the wind. In this case, Mary went on to carry a baby to term (we would imagine).  A baby who had human genes like his brethren, and yet, at the same time having spirit genes from the Power on high, like his brethren in John 1:12f. Our parents had knowledge of our conception whereas Joseph had not, and I am supposing that God may have as well used the technique he used on Adam on Joseph:  in that he put him to sleep and removed the necessary part (seed) and formed Christ, complete with his spirit as stated in the conception passages regarding Christ. In this manner, Mary would have remained a virgin, Jesus would have been born out of the seed of David and so fulfill the prophecies, it would explain Joseph's lack of knowledge and why he needed a dream to assure him of Mary's virtue, and most importantly Jesus would still have been conceived directly by God through his spirit and be the Son of God.  Jesus could also be said to be one of us, a real brethren of humanity, even made a little lower than the angels.   What is lacking?   Blessings.

Hi Cubes,

I don't believe John 1:13 or John 3:3 bear any relation to the birth of Yahshua and that using them in this way is not in keeping with the context of what is written.

Others also suggest that God may have put Joseph's sperm into Mary but I don't see the point of why he would have to do this.  They were possibily to marry in a few days, or a week maybe (this is never discussed in scripture) therefore there would be no need for YHWH to do this.  The prophets do not refer to the birth as being anything other than a normal conception and birth.  Does that mean that this can't be what happened?  I don't suppose it does but I personally don't believe that that is the case.

I also do not understand why Mary had to be a 'virgin' (as in never having had sex but be with child).  If we go back to the verses quoted in Isaiah 7:14 you will see that Isaiah had sexual relations with the prophetess and that a child was born (Isaiah 8.3)  This agrees with what I believe is the case with Mary.  Joseph had relations with her and she conceived – it is a parallel prophecy.

It is a very difficult topic and hard to change what we have believed for so many years.   I didn't come to my beliefs easily either, I struggled with them for many many months but now it all seems to just fit together.

God Bless you Cubes and may he help us all on our journey for truth.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ Aug. 03 2006,22:33)

Exodus 4:22  “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 1 Chronicles 28:6  “Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. Revelation 21:7  “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Nick

How do you resolve these verses? Awaiting your reply.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Do you have problems with God calling men his sons as with Is 1.2, Deut 14.1?
Or is it the firstborn status of the Son of God you are struggling with?

[Author]

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