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Hi RR,
Your words;
“Yes, the word did become flesh.God’s words (his plan) had been spoken through the prophets many times informing the people that a man, one of their own people, a prophet like unto Moses, from the tribe of Judah and the House of David would be born. One that would be annointed by God and would speak all that God commanded him to speak.”
So in what way is
a WORD
a PLAN?A PLAN is devised and even revealed but a WORD is SPOKEN FORTH.
A PLAN may lead to a WORD, but not be that WORD.
” My Word has gone out of My mouth..”
A PLAN cannot be WITH GOD in the beginning?
A PLAN cannot become flesh?
Heb 1.1-2
“1God, after He (A)spoke long ago to the fathers in (B)the prophets in many portions and Âin many ways,
2(D)in these last days (E)has spoken to us in (F)His Son, whom He appointed (G)heir of all things, (H)through whom also He made the (I)world”God had a PLAN
He SPOKE forth His PLAN through prophets and now through the WORD.But the WORD was not a PLAN.
Hi Jefe Gordo
Of all of the translations I have checked, none of them read as you have it but as below.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (NKJV)
Quote Just to clarify your position…when the Word is said to “become flesh” and “make a dwelling” it is a personification of God's word/plan. The Word is not its own entity but the wisdom/plan/words or the Father. Do I have this correct? When the Word is said to be “made flesh” and “dwell among us” I see this as a fulfilment of the prophecies – the words of YHWH that had been spoken through the prophets. The things that YHWH has spoken shall come to pass.
Quote (Cubes @ July 20 2006,21:08) Greetings RR et al: This has no doubt been discussed before I am sure, but do you mind telling us how you understand the verses relating to the world being made through the only begotten son of God, e.g. John 1, Hebrews 1, Colossians 1. If he didn't exist before his birth in Bethlehem, how was the world made through him since creationist say the earth is approximately 6,000 and others say it is much older.
Take care.
Hi Cubes,I believe that only Almighty YHWH created:
Quote Isaiah 42:5 ¶ Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;Who does Yahshua say created:
Quote Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
Luke 10: 6 “But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’Let us look at the ‘word’ in John 1 as being what was spoken (the thought/will/plan of God).
Quote Psalms 92:5 O LORD, how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep.
Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, “Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:
Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Amos 4:13 For behold, He who forms mountains, And creates the wind, Who declares to man what his thought is, And makes the morning darkness, Who treads the high places of the earth—The LORD God of hosts is His name.
Rev 4: 11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”This would make the word an ‘it’ and not a ‘he’.
John1:1¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 It was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through it, and without it nothing was made that was made.
Is this in alignment with the OT:
Quote Genesis 1: 1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth……3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light…… 6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters…. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good……… 20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven……26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. John 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 ¶ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Quote Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Quote Deut 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Isaiah 11:1-2 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the YHWH shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the YHWH.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Jeremiah 33:14-15 “Behold, the days are coming, says YHWH, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.Hebrews 1: 1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (165)
165. aiwn aion ahee-ohn’; from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.
It is through Yahshua that we have the age to come. This is a reference the future not creation.
Collosians 1 requires more explanation and it would
probably be simpler to refer you to some writings on this subject.http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules….pid=128
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/colossians.htm
God Bless
Thanks for your reply RR.
I haven't got time to study what you have said but will do soon when I have time and then I will reply.
My main concern at the moment is that you say that the Word became flesh means the plan of God became flesh.
But we are told that the antichrist spirit denies that Jesus came in the flesh. You are telling me that the plan came in the flesh. At first glance that seems as dodgy as the Trinitarians explanation who say God came in the flesh.
But it is quite easy to believe that Jesus came in the flesh. Why change that to the plan, or to God.
Why can't we just say Jesus came in the flesh?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2006,00:21) Hi RR,
You say
“Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since eternity,Why is that?
What does it mean to you?
Perhaps their coming as Prophets was PLANNED long ago?”Lk 1.70 NASB
“As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old-“
Pretty clear and no need to search for alternative meanings.
NickHow about these translations:
Quote Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began (NKJV) Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began (AV)
Have prophets been since the world began?
Quote (t8 @ July 23 2006,10:40) Thanks for your reply RR. I haven't got time to study what you have said but will do soon when I have time and then I will reply.
My main concern at the moment is that you say that the Word became flesh means the plan of God became flesh.
But we are told that the antichrist spirit denies that Jesus came in the flesh. You are telling me that the plan came in the flesh. At first glance that seems as dodgy as the Trinitarians explanation who say God came in the flesh.
But it is quite easy to believe that Jesus came in the flesh. Why change that to the plan, or to God.
Why can't we just say Jesus came in the flesh?
t8Yahshua did come in the flesh. YHWH spoke through the prophets of the one who was to come. One from the Tribe of Juda from the seed of David. The one spoken of was Yahshua and he came in the flesh – a 100% human being. I have not said otherwise.
Hi RR,
Your verses:
Quote
Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began (NKJV)Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began (AV)
Do you think it is good practice to trawl through translations till be find one ambiguous enough to serve our purposes in terms of meaning?
Why is “Who” written with a capital?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2006,19:40) Hi RR,
Your verses:
Quote
Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began (NKJV)Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began (AV)
Do you think it is good practice to trawl through translations till be find one ambiguous enough to serve our purposes in terms of meaning?
Why is “Who” written with a capital?
Nick,I didn't trawl through translations, nor would it be considered ambiguous. This was the translation I offered when I posted this earlier – NKJV and AV are well known translations.
I was simply showing a similarity between this verse and that of Micah 5:2.
If you don't see the similarity that's fine, just say so. Others may see the connection I am making.
Why must your replies contain derogatory comments? Do you derive satification from this or is it that you want to discredit me before others?
Hi RR,
What does “coming in the flesh” mean to you?
Is it another way of saying “being born” to you?
Is that what scripture is really saying?
We always have to search for the true meanings, even in the manuscripts if need be, rather than just choosing a suitable translation of a verse.
What of my other question?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2006,03:11) Hi RR,
What does “coming in the flesh” mean to you?
Is it another way of saying “being born” to you?
Is that what scripture is really saying?
We always have to search for the true meanings, even in the manuscripts if need be, rather than just choosing a suitable translation of a verse.
What of my other question?
Nick,Quote John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us I believe this to mean that the word spoken by YHWH through the prophets in regard to the Messiah, the one to come, had become flesh. YHWH had spoken of a man who was to be born, one from the House of David and the Tribe of Judah, the seed of David through his sons. Yahshua was the fulfilment of these prophecies. YHWH’s word (that which he had spoken of through the prophets) was fulfilled in the conception, birth, life, and death of Yahshua.
Then we have:
Quote 1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 2 John 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
In the above verses I believe John is undertaking to show the error of incorrect teachings by establishing that the one spoken of through the prophets, the one they had walked with for three years, was the true Messiah, the Son of God the King of Israel. Yahshua had come in the flesh a 100% human being as was prophesied.
Quote What of my other question? What of my others questions?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2006,21:37) Hi RR,
In what way was
the Word spoken through the prophets
WITH God,
and God
in the beginning??
NickIn the beginning was the word
In the beginning YHWH had many thoughts/plans that would come to be as he spoke them into being. Some things came into being sooner than others (YHWH speaking creation into being) and others were proclaimed through prophets to happen when the time was come for them to occur.
And the word was with God
All these thoughts/plans were with YHWH, they are a part of him and who he is. YHWH spoke the world into being and has spoken of things to come through the prophets. Other revelation is still to come.
Quote Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: And the word was God.
To know and understand God we read the bible (God’s word). What he has done, what he wishes us to do, what he will do in the future. God reveals himself in his word. He wishes for us to love him, the only true God, and to love each other. He shows us how to have a relationship with him and with others through his word. YHWH’s word is YHWH.
Nick
You ask questions all the time and I try my best to answer them yet you have not answered the questions asked of you.
Here they are once again. Please be courteous and reply to them.
Quote From Me:
The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?From WhatIsTrue:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not?Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.
Hi RR,
What I do know is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
All other sonship bows to this fact in my view.
Scripture also tells me he is the Son of David and since his father was God it is as the foster child of Joseph.
The people of the time clearly believed that Joseph was his physical father as it was told given to them to know more but scripture reveals that God was his true father. I accept the wisdom of God in this matter in the knowledge that God can raise up children to David too from these stones.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2006,11:21) Hi RR,
What I do know is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
All other sonship bows to this fact in my view.
Scripture also tells me he is the Son of David and since his father was God it is as the foster child of Joseph.
The people of the time clearly believed that Joseph was his physical father as it was told given to them to know more but scripture reveals that God was his true father. I accept the wisdom of God in this matter in the knowledge that God can raise up children to David too from these stones.
NickYes, I agree that Yahshua is the Son of God but we differ on what is meant by ‘Son of God’.
For you it means that YHWH fathered him.
For me it means that YHWH choose him as his son
(this has been discussed in earlier pages)
Yahshua is his ‘unique’ son and he will be our King in the age to come.YHWH has spoken through the prophets that the Messiah would be of the seed of David, from the House of Judah. I trust in the word of YHWH.
Virgin Birth passages in both Luke and Matthew repeatedly refer to Joseph being from the House of David and are silent about Mary (except the link between her and Elizabeth being cousins which would indicate that she is quite possibly from the House of Aaron). I don’t believe being an adopted son qualifies him for a position that specifically states that he must be of the seed of David. YHWH has said the the Messiah would be the from the Seed of David, I don't believe he has stated that he is to be his (YHWH's) physical son.
Quote Luke 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. John’s words in the above verse are irrelevant to that which has already been spoken of by YHWH of the one to come – the Messiah.
Hi RR,
Thanks.
So your view is that Jesus is the true son of Joseph but the ADOPTED Son of God?
I believe the reverse is true and that it is one of the most important concepts in the bible.Nick,
I said he is the CHOOSEN Son of God.
You have said that he existed in some form before his birth.
Did he always exist?
When did he begin to exist?
How did he come into being?
At what point did he come into being?Nick,
What you have affirmed is that the prophets “got it wrong” and that the scriputres are unreliable. According to the book of Samuel, YHWH says to David:
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.”
Nick says:
“Scripture also tells me he is the Son of David and since his father was God it is as the foster child of Joseph.”You can't both be right. You have reduced the scriptures to hearsay in this matter.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Aug. 03 2006,21:51) Nick, I said he is the CHOOSEN Son of God.
You have said that he existed in some form before his birth.
Did he always exist?
When did he begin to exist?
How did he come into being?
At what point did he come into being?
Hi RR,
We know the only begotten Son of God was sent into the world [1Jn 4.9]. We know the Word was with God in the beginning, an era before time. Sons derive life and being from their parents so he derives his monogenes being as an image of God before the era of time and that is all we can know about his beginnings. We know he had been in heaven and had seen the Father.We are adopted sons. Sons who are chosen as sons are adopted. So Jesus is the adopted son of God???
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