Conception

[Cubes]

Quote (Jefe Gordo @ July 18 2006,04:27)

Everybody, Good discussion. I think RR and WIT have made quality, surprisingly biblical arguments on a topic I assumed to be gnostic nonsense. I guess that shows you the ability of man-made doctrines to suck people in ala the Trinity way of thinking. There have been strong arguments on the opposing side as well. I still undecided. If possible I would like some clarification from RR and/or WIT. The Word became flesh correct? At what point did this occur. Mary + Joseph = 100% human – Mind, body, spirit. Did the Father send the Word down to fill the vessel created by Mary & Josesph? If so, at what point? I believe, contrary to the Trinity, that Jesus had His own will and spirit – the Word. How was all this “implanted” into the human body of Yashua. Thanks for the great discussion. Keep it up…and remain calm

Hi Jefe,

I know what you mean!

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
“….from long ago, from the days of eternity” Micah 5:2 NASB

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. (NIV]

Why is that?
What does it mean to you?
Perhaps his coming as Messiah was PLANNED long ago?
Why is everything seemingly shown as PROPHETIC and nothing of actual fact in your doctrinal stance?
Or is that just a matter of doctrinal convenience?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote

Hi RR, Could I ask for clarification on this one particular point: That you believe that Joseph is the physical father of Jesus in that Joseph knew his wife and the outcome was Jesus.

t8

Yes, I believe that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary and that Yahshua is their child.  

Quote

If you don't know the answer then that is fine. No one here has all the answers. But if that is what you believe and possibly teach, then it would be useful for me to know that, when making replies in this discussion. Thx

How could I not know the answer –  aren't you just asking me a question on what I believe? I am not a teacher – nor have I ever claimed to be.  This is a discussion board and nothing more.  It is a platform for people to put forward their thoughts, understandings, beliefs and material that may offer others a different perspective than they currently know.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2006,23:03)

Hi RR, Is Jesus the Son of God, only begotten of God in the beginning? or Is Jesus Christ the Physical son of God? or Is Jesus Christ only a man and a son of God by title? or Is Jesus Christ only a man and a son of God by obedience? If you only accept either of the last two options then he is not truly a son of God and neither are we. And any discussion about just a man and his human origins does not have much relevance here.

Nick,

I have clearly explained my position of the above in a discussion with you on pages 5, 6, 7  and 8 of this very topic.

Why you persists in asking the same questions when you have already been given the answer numerous times I fail to understand.

I don't see how we can move forward when you persist in going around in circles.  Please refrain from repeatedly asking questions that have already been answered.

Please answer the questions put to you. They have been posted to you numerous times yet for some reason you refuse to answer.  

Quote

From Me: The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'.  How do you deal with this? From WhatIsTrue: Did the prophets get it right or wrong?  Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not? Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.

[Ramblinrose]

For those that have found this topic of interest you may wish to read the following articles.  They come from different angles than the one Cubes and I have been discussing.

This is the one that was being discussed:

http://geocities.com/oneseekinglight/virginbirth

Others offered for your reading:

http://www.angelfire.com/in4/twowitnesses/VirginBirth.html
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/virginbirth.html
http://www.onhigh.org/VirginBirth1.htm
http://www.thewatchman.net/virgin.html
http://www.sabbatarian.com/TableContent/VirginBirth.html

(Please note that I am not in agreement with everything that is written in these articles.)

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2006,04:42)

Hi RR, “….from long ago, from the days of eternity” Micah 5:2 NASB “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. (NIV] Why is that? What does it mean to you? Perhaps his coming as Messiah was PLANNED long ago? Why is everything seemingly shown as PROPHETIC and nothing of actual fact in your doctrinal stance? Or is that just a matter of doctrinal convenience?

Nick

Quote

Micah 5:2  “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

I have already posted information in regard to Micah 5:2 on pages 18 and 20 of this topic but I offer the following for you to consider:

Quote

Luke 1:68  “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,  69  And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David,  70  As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since (575) the world began (165),  (NKJV)

Quote

575 apo apo apo’ a primary particle; ; preposition AV-from 393, of 129, out of 48, for 10, off 10, by 9, at 9, in 6, since + 3739 5, on 5, not tr. 16, misc. 31; 671 1) of separation 1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, … 1b) of separation of a part from the whole 1b1) where of a whole some part is taken 1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed 1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance 1d1) physical, of distance of place 1d2) temporal, of distance of time 2) of origin 2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken 2b) of origin of a cause

Quote

165 aiwn aion ahee-ohn’ from the same as 104; TDNT-1:197,31; n m AV-ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age

The same verse can be translated as follows which makes it very similar in content to Micah 5:2 –

Luke 1:68  “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,  69  And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David,  70  As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since eternity,
 
Why is that?
What does it mean to you?
Perhaps their coming as Prophets was PLANNED long ago?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Jefe Gordo @ July 17 2006,23:27)

Everybody, Good discussion. I think RR and WIT have made quality, surprisingly biblical arguments on a topic I assumed to be gnostic nonsense. I guess that shows you the ability of man-made doctrines to suck people in ala the Trinity way of thinking. There have been strong arguments on the opposing side as well. I still undecided. If possible I would like some clarification from RR and/or WIT. The Word became flesh correct? At what point did this occur. Mary + Joseph = 100% human – Mind, body, spirit. Did the Father send the Word down to fill the vessel created by Mary & Josesph? If so, at what point? I believe, contrary to the Trinity, that Jesus had His own will and spirit – the Word. How was all this “implanted” into the human body of Yashua. Thanks for the great discussion. Keep it up…and remain calm

Hi Jefe Gordo

I am glad you have found the topic of interest. I have seen your question and will reply soon.

God Bless

[kenrch]

RR, are you alright?

t8

Yes, I believe that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary and that Yahshua is their child.

If what you believe is true then scripture lies! And all of humanity is dead and will remain dead.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: FOR THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mat 1:25 AND KNEW HER NOT TILL SHE HAD BROUGHT FORTH HER FIRST BORN SON: and he called his name JESUS.

This is the gospel the only begotten of God! Anything else is another gospel.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

RR If you believe that Jesus was Joseph's Son. Then you should repent! That's what happens when one reads other writings rather than the bible. But the scholars say!! The scholars like all of Satan's tools have SOME truth enough to suck you in and believe them rather than the Word of God.

I fear that you have strayed. Please come back to the heard and be led by the Shepherd.

All in His Love,

kenrch

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
You say
“Luke 1:68  “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,  69  And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David,  70  As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since eternity,

Why is that?
What does it mean to you?
Perhaps their coming as Prophets was PLANNED long ago?”

Lk 1.70 NASB
“As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old-“
Pretty clear and no need to search for alternative meanings.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ July 18 2006,09:55)

Quote Hi RR, Could I ask for clarification on this one particular point: That you believe that Joseph is the physical father of Jesus in that Joseph knew his wife and the outcome was Jesus. t8 Yes, I believe that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary and that Yahshua is their child.   Quote If you don't know the answer then that is fine. No one here has all the answers. But if that is what you believe and possibly teach, then it would be useful for me to know that, when making replies in this discussion. Thx How could I not know the answer –  aren't you just asking me a question on what I believe? I am not a teacher – nor have I ever claimed to be.  This is a discussion board and nothing more.  It is a platform for people to put forward their thoughts, understandings, beliefs and material that may offer others a different perspective than they currently know.

Hi RR,
You have made your choice that Joseph and David must be proved to be parents of Jesus ahead of God's claims to fatherhood.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and our faith rests on this stone which causes some to stumble..

[Proclaimer]

Hi RR,

Quote (Ramblinrose @ July 19 2006,04:55)

Quote Hi RR, Could I ask for clarification on this one particular point: That you believe that Joseph is the physical father of Jesus in that Joseph knew his wife and the outcome was Jesus. t8 Yes, I believe that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary and that Yahshua is their child. Quote If you don't know the answer then that is fine. No one here has all the answers. But if that is what you believe and possibly teach, then it would be useful for me to know that, when making replies in this discussion. Thx How could I not know the answer – aren't you just asking me a question on what I believe? I am not a teacher – nor have I ever claimed to be. This is a discussion board and nothing more. It is a platform for people to put forward their thoughts, understandings, beliefs and material that may offer others a different perspective than they currently know.

Thanks for letting me know.

BTW I said “possibly teach”. I was careful to not say 'teach'.
Promote is probably a better word.

Thx

[Proclaimer]

To RR.

I haven't read this whole discussion so I apologise in advance if this is already covered.

But I am wondering how you get around this verse:

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Thx

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Lk 2.21
“…His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived[4815] in the womb”
Lk 1.31f
“And behold you will conceive [4815]in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David”
Lk 1.36
” And behold even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived [4815]a son in her old age and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month..”

One thing we can know is that Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary. Just as John the baptist was conceived in the womb of Elizabeth, Jesus was conceived.

He was not placed whole in the womb as some claim.
Thus he is truly son of Man.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (t8 @ July 19 2006,09:19)

To RR. I haven't read this whole discussion so I apologise in advance if this is already covered. But I am wondering how you get around this verse: Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Thx

Quote

Matt 1:8 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

‘Came together’ is not a reference to sexual relations.  See below.

4905 sunercomai sunerchomai soon-er’-khom-ahee
from 4862 and 2064; TDNT-2:684,257; v
AV-come together 18, go with 4, come with 2, resort 2, come 2, come with + 2258 1, company with 1, accompany 1, assemble with 1; 32
1) to come together
1a) to assemble
1b) of conjugal cohabitation
2) to go (depart) or come with one, to accompany one

Hope that helps.

[Ramblinrose]

t8

Mary was found to be with child before they had started living together as husband and wife.

If they got married, had relations and Mary then left to visit Elizabeth, they would not have been living together. Taking up residence together was the final step of marriage.

The article covers much of this material so to read it might aid the questions you are going to ask.

God Bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Mary did not “know man” when she was visited by the angel, and Joseph did not have relations with his wife before the birth of Jesus. That is why it is called the virgin birth. The Father of Jesus was God by the Holy Spirit according to scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
The following is the stated beliefs of the Biblical Unitarians from their site.

“We believe that he was born in Bethlehem to Mary, a virgin, who was betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 2:1; Luke 1:26-33).

We believe that God was literally his father, in that God created his (Jesus') life in Mary (Luke 1:35).”

What say ye?

[Ramblinrose]

Hi Jefe Gordo

Quote

The word became flesh correct?

Yes, the word did become flesh.  

God’s words (his plan) had been spoken through the prophets many times informing the people that a man, one of their own people, a prophet like unto Moses, from the tribe of Judah and the House of David would be born.  One that would be annointed by God and would speak all that God commanded him to speak.

We see the commencement of God’s plan when the Angel announces to Mary that she was to conceive a child that was to be called the Son of God. At his birth the Angels rejoiced for God’s word/plan had come to life, but for the people it would not be until he commenced his ministry at the age of 30 that the words God had spoken (through the prophets) of the one to come (the Messiah) would be seen/understood by all.

Quote

Did the Father send the Word down to fill the vessel created by Mary & Joseph?  If so, at what point?

As shown above, it wasn’t that God’s word came down, it was more that God’s words were fulfilled at the conception, birth and ministry of Yahshua.  

Quote

I believe, contrary to the Trinity, that Jesus had His own will and spirit – the Word.  How was all this “implanted” in the human body of Yeshua.

I also believe that Yahshua has his own will and spirit.  But his will was to follow Gods will.  To follow his laws, to preach of the kingdom and die for his brothers.  His will to follow YHWH made him one in spirit with God.

I hope I have answered your questions. Shalom

[Jefe Gordo]

RR,

Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it. Even when things come up that question the foundations of your faith it is comforting to know that uneasy feeling inside you is God's spirit building a stronger foundation.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Many would say that when the Word is said to make HIS dwelling among us that the pronoun indicates the Word is a he/a male being. I would disagree with this because the same argument is made to support the Holy Spirit being his/its own person.

Just to clarify your position…when the Word is said to “become flesh” and “make a dwelling” it is a personification of God's word/plan. The Word is not its own entity but the wisdom/plan/words or the Father. Do I have this correct?

Thanks again for responding. Great discussion.

God Bless

[Cubes]

Greetings RR et al:

This has no doubt been discussed before I am sure, but do you mind telling us how you understand the verses relating to the world being made through the only begotten son of God, e.g. John 1, Hebrews 1, Colossians 1. If he didn't exist before his birth in Bethlehem, how was the world made through him since creationist say the earth is approximately 6,000 and others say it is much older.

Take care.

[Author]

Posts