- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ July 01 2009,12:55) Quote (frankandcathy @ June 28 2009,17:43) Bod: Well, I think we might be on a different page because I'm not accustomed to using the Quran to validate or invalidate my view of Christ…I'm not sure how to address that. Let's see…I guess where it says that far exalted is He above having a son seems to completely contradict the scriptures (trinitarian or not) unless I'm reading that wrong. I think I see what you're saying about Spirit. But what about the concept that the Holy Spirit has a personality? As in “do not grieve the Holy Spirit?”
Also, tell me what you think about the bodily form of Christ. “Do you think he had ONLY a bodily form before creation or that he only got that after he came to Earth? Did any part of him still dwell in heaven with God as we are told that we do?”
Thanks for your patience. I'm gonna toddle off to bed for the night but will check back again sometime tomorrow.
Hi frankandcathy:How do you as a Trinitarian gather that the Holy Spirit is a “Third person in the Godhead” when there is the following scripture that tells us about the Holy Spirit:
Quote 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Plain and simple, the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and not a “Third Person”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
What! Jesus said that He would send the Spirit from the Father and that He would not speak on His own authority. Did you get that Marty? The Spirit was under authority. Therefore, He is a distinct person from the Father and the Son.thnker
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote That's odd you don't follow your own advice, but I am confident that as you give it you are reminded of how you yourself should respond. Whatever!
Quote You have not been answering my questions or responding to the proofs you asked me to give and yet have not responded back, after I delivered the goods to you. I am replying mainly to the erroneous claim that our translations have the word “Godhead” in Colossians 1:9. So far no one here has shown the gonads to stand up and admit that this is an erroneous claim. I really don't care much what you say about me because you said that Paul used guile in his writings and even bragged about his lies. Therefore, you have no rational basis for appealing to Paul's writings. In a court of law if a witness is caught in a lie his whole testinony is thrown out. This is true even if 99% of what he said was fact. His entire testimony is inadmissable if he is lies on just one little thing.
When you said that Paul lied to us you shot yourself in the foot. You cannot defend anything you say because Paul's whole testimony is inadmissable. As a judge in a court of law is not obligated to consider inadmissable evidence, so I am not obligated to even consider an argument from you when you offer me inadmissable evidence.
You shot yourself in the foot and apparently you haven't figured this out yet.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,11:14) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2009,12:55) Quote (frankandcathy @ June 28 2009,17:43) Bod: Well, I think we might be on a different page because I'm not accustomed to using the Quran to validate or invalidate my view of Christ…I'm not sure how to address that. Let's see…I guess where it says that far exalted is He above having a son seems to completely contradict the scriptures (trinitarian or not) unless I'm reading that wrong. I think I see what you're saying about Spirit. But what about the concept that the Holy Spirit has a personality? As in “do not grieve the Holy Spirit?”
Also, tell me what you think about the bodily form of Christ. “Do you think he had ONLY a bodily form before creation or that he only got that after he came to Earth? Did any part of him still dwell in heaven with God as we are told that we do?”
Thanks for your patience. I'm gonna toddle off to bed for the night but will check back again sometime tomorrow.
Hi frankandcathy:How do you as a Trinitarian gather that the Holy Spirit is a “Third person in the Godhead” when there is the following scripture that tells us about the Holy Spirit:
Quote 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Plain and simple, the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and not a “Third Person”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
What! Jesus said that He would send the Spirit from the Father and that He would not speak on His own authority. Did you get that Marty? The Spirit was under authority. Therefore, He is a distinct person from the Father and the Son.thnker
Hi JackExactly!
Blessings WJ
Quote (squirrel @ July 01 2009,03:49) Which translation has the word godhead in Colossians 1:19? I checked several and found none that has it.
My KJV says this verse 19 ” It pleases the Father that in Himall the fullness should dwell.” We do know though that the
Father is above all in
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”verse 16 says this:” that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strenghtend with might through HIS Spirit in the inner man.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,03:27) bodhitharta wrote: Quote That's odd you don't follow your own advice, but I am confident that as you give it you are reminded of how you yourself should respond. Whatever!
Quote You have not been answering my questions or responding to the proofs you asked me to give and yet have not responded back, after I delivered the goods to you. I am replying mainly to the erroneous claim that our translations have the word “Godhead” in Colossians 1:9. So far no one here has shown the gonads to stand up and admit that this is an erroneous claim. I really don't care much what you say about me because you said that Paul used guile in his writings and even bragged about his lies. Therefore, you have no rational basis for appealing to Paul's writings. In a court of law if a witness is caught in a lie his whole testinony is thrown out. This is true even if 99% of what he said was fact. His entire testimony is inadmissable if he is lies on just one little thing.
When you said that Paul lied to us you shot yourself in the foot. You cannot defend anything you say because Paul's whole testimony is inadmissable. As a judge in a court of law is not obligated to consider inadmissable evidence, so I am not obligated to even consider an argument from you when you offer me inadmissable evidence.
You shot yourself in the foot and apparently you haven't figured this out yet.
thinker
Thinker,I showed you scripture of Paul saying he used guile so shouldn't you be throwing out his testimony as my testimony was true about his testimony of using Guile.
That would mean you would have to throw out pauls testimony and accept mines according to you. Here is the testimony of Paul:
2 Corinthians 12:16 (King James Version)
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
This is not my testimony it is Paul, should all of his testimony be thrown out?
Revelation 14 (King James Version)
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:9-11 (King James Version)
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
Galatians 5
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Here is paul with another testimony that is not really true because circumcision predates the law and is an everlasting covenant instituted by God himself. Jesus was circumcised and told no one that circumcision shouldn't matter anymore because he had come.
W.J. Have you ever wondered that since the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus, then He is the Gather of Jesus? We do know that it is not so. So that is another way to look what the Holy Spirit is. We believe it is the Fathers Spirit since He is the Father of Jesus. You see that? Then there are other Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love to you and yours, IreneQuote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,04:26) Quote (squirrel @ July 01 2009,03:49) Which translation has the word godhead in Colossians 1:19? I checked several and found none that has it.
My KJV says this verse 19 ” It pleases the Father that in Himall the fullness should dwell.” We do know though that the
Father is above all in
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”verse 16 says this:” that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strenghtend with might through HIS Spirit in the inner man.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
But it doesn't say “Godhead.” It says “Godhead” in 2:9. The claim on this thread is that the word “Godhead” is found in our translations in 1:19. This is not correct.thinker
Quote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,04:32) W.J. Have you ever wondered that since the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus, then He is the Gather of Jesus? We do know that it is not so. So that is another way to look what the Holy Spirit is. We believe it is the Fathers Spirit since He is the Father of Jesus. You see that? Then there are other Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene
Irene,
The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ in scripture.thinker
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Thinker, I showed you scripture of Paul saying he used guile so shouldn't you be throwing out his testimony as my testimony was true about his testimony of using Guile.
That would mean you would have to throw out pauls testimony and accept mines according to you. Here is the testimony of Paul:
2 Corinthians 12:16 (King James Version)
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
bd,
You are manipulating the Scriptures. Paul was not speaking about the things he preached or taught. He was speaking about the collection of monies and he was speaking from the standpoint of those who would accuse him of fraud. In the very next verse he denies ever exploiting them,Quote Did I take advantage of you by any of those I sent to you? Your argument is lame!
bd said:
Quote Galatians 5 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Here is paul with another testimony that is not really true because circumcision predates the law and is an everlasting covenant instituted by God himself. Jesus was circumcised and told no one that circumcision shouldn't matter anymore because he had come.
Jesus did indeed tell people to keep the law. But that was before He fulfilled the law by His death on the cross. Now we are required to leave Christ's teachings about the law (Heb. 6:1-3).
We are under grace now!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,13:13) Quote (Cindy @ July 02 2009,04:32) W.J. Have you ever wondered that since the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus, then He is the Gather of Jesus? We do know that it is not so. So that is another way to look what the Holy Spirit is. We believe it is the Fathers Spirit since He is the Father of Jesus. You see that? Then there are other Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene
Irene,
The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ in scripture.thinker
Thinker,
IMO the spirit of Christ is the spirit of Christ. He has a separate will and a separate spirit than the Father. We also have a separate will and a separate spirit than the Father and a separate will and a separate spirit than the Son. The thing about spirits is that they can be united. So when the question is asked of a believer “just how many spirits are in you?” the answer can be “one”…a born again spirit…a union of their personal spirit with the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son. Also, our spirit can become unified with the spirit of other believers.Phil 1:27-28
27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 in no way alarmed by your opponents — which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
NASU1 Cor 6:17
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
NASUGod bless,
KathiQuote (Cindy @ July 01 2009,12:32) W.J. Have you ever wondered that since the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus, then He is the Gather of Jesus? We do know that it is not so. So that is another way to look what the Holy Spirit is. We believe it is the Fathers Spirit since He is the Father of Jesus. You see that? Then there are other Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene
Hi IreneIs there a scripture that says “the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus,”?
Quote (thethinker @ July 02 2009,05:31) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Thinker, I showed you scripture of Paul saying he used guile so shouldn't you be throwing out his testimony as my testimony was true about his testimony of using Guile.
That would mean you would have to throw out pauls testimony and accept mines according to you. Here is the testimony of Paul:
2 Corinthians 12:16 (King James Version)
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
bd,
You are manipulating the Scriptures. Paul was not speaking about the things he preached or taught. He was speaking about the collection of monies and he was speaking from the standpoint of those who would accuse him of fraud. In the very next verse he denies ever exploiting them,Quote Did I take advantage of you by any of those I sent to you? Your argument is lame!
bd said:
Quote Galatians 5 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Here is paul with another testimony that is not really true because circumcision predates the law and is an everlasting covenant instituted by God himself. Jesus was circumcised and told no one that circumcision shouldn't matter anymore because he had come.
Jesus did indeed tell people to keep the law. But that was before He fulfilled the law by His death on the cross. Now we are required to leave Christ's teachings about the law (Heb. 6:1-3).
We are under grace now!
thinker
Matthew 519Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Psalm 119:43-45 (King James Version)
43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Thinker if you think you are simply under grace go commit evil and do not repent and see what happens when you die.
Now, tell me how is it you think Paul can simply over turn the decision of God himself? even Paul calls the law good:
Romans 7:11-13 (King James Version)
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Paul says sin dwells in him
Romans 7:15-17 (King James Version)
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Yet you make paul out to be a Holy Prophet.
bodhitharta said:
Quote Yet you make paul out to be a Holy Prophet. So you deny that Paul was inspired? He claimed that His gospel came by direct revelation from Christ. Was he lying about this too?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,07:44) Hi TT,
As Peter said Paul spoke with wisdom.
Those unacquainted with wisdom hate him.
I do delight in the rare occasion we agree Nick
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,07:40) Hi BD,
So You and I must first be Jews and submit to their Law?
God gave rules and commandments before there was anyone ever called a Jew.Do you think the prohibition against murder started in Judaism or before? When david got punished for adultery was that before or after Moses?
God has always told us what to eat and whe we should refrain from eating something we are to not teach those who received the Law from Moses that somehow this law has been abolished when it is clear that it has not been abolished and Jesus said he did not come to do away with the law and to fulfill the law means to do it wholeheartedly and correctly.
Jesus said not only should you not commit adultery you should not even look at a woman with lust. That is not doing away with adultery it is upholding in the highest sense.
Jesus said that not only should you not kill but you should not stay angry with your brother and forgive them 70 x 7 and in fact love your enemy too, that is not doing away with the prohibition of murder it is upholding it to its highest sense.
Jesus said do not be a hypocrite but when you sin repent and your Father in heaven will forgive you.
Jesus didn't say to one Jew not to keep the sabbath he said it was lawful to do good on the sabbath because that is keeping the sabbath in the highest sense.
So the Laws of God was taught by His servant/son but most don't know they would prefer to believe the convoluted message of Paul
That tells you to ignore all these laws because you are full of sin but that's okay because you are living under grace so today what we have is ambiguous Christian beliefs.
Jesus Christ taught the Law and explained how they lost their way and changed the law and tampered with the law. Jesus even said woe to the scribes!
Jesus resurrected the Law and Paul killed it again.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,07:44) Hi TT,
As Peter said Paul spoke with wisdom.
Those unacquainted with wisdom hate him.
As late as Eusebius (d. 371) some did not consider 2 Peter to be from the Apostle or part of the canon and doubts continued for centuries2 Peter “was probably composed within two decades after his death. No book in the Bible had more difficulty establishing itself in the canon. You like Eusebius, look it up.
Hi BD,
No Jesus explained to the Jews who were under the law aspects of their law in response to their questions.As you say he was sent to Israel and of course the new covenant was in his blood yet to be poured out.
But in so doing he was not putting all gentiles and the heathen under the Jewish Law- which you do not submit to.
Paul spoke to those reborn into Christ and in Romans and Galatians that included recent Jewish converts who felt more secure under the Law and wanted to return to it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2009,06:08) Quote (Cindy @ July 01 2009,12:32) W.J. Have you ever wondered that since the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus, then He is the Gather of Jesus? We do know that it is not so. So that is another way to look what the Holy Spirit is. We believe it is the Fathers Spirit since He is the Father of Jesus. You see that? Then there are other Scriptures like Ephesians 4:6
Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene
Hi IreneIs there a scripture that says “the Holy Spirit implanted the seed into Jesus,”?
W.J. Maybe I used the wrong words to what I wanted to say.
Math. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. After Maria was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together,she was found with Child of the Holy Spirit.
Now what I really was going to ask is, then if the Holy Spirit is a person, then He is the Father of Jesus. And we know that it is not so. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and that is why He is the Father of Jesus. No trinity doctrine.
Peace and Love Irene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
