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15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I wanted to go to Hebrews 1:2 next, but Gene has the default argument that all the “by's” and “through's” in the Bible are “for's”, so therefore the universe wasn't created “through” Jesus, but “for” him.
So I had to go to Col 1:16 to eliminate that default argument by showing that the two words at the end of verse 16 could not possibly BOTH mean “for”.
So, what do you say non-preexisters? The context is of God speaking to us through (or maybe “for”, right Gene?) His Son. This Son was the firstborn of every creature and all things were created through and for him. Notice it doesn't say all things were created through the “thought of who Jesus would eventually be”, but through the actual Son of God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,11:35) 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I wanted to go to Hebrews 1:2 next, but Gene has the default argument that all the “by's” and “through's” in the Bible are “for's”, so therefore the universe wasn't created “through” Jesus, but “for” him.
So I had to go to Col 1:16 to eliminate that default argument by showing that the two words at the end of verse 16 could not possibly BOTH mean “for”.
So, what do you say non-preexisters? The context is of God speaking to us through (or maybe “for”, right Gene?) His Son. This Son was the firstborn of every creature and all things were created through and for him. Notice it doesn't say all things were created through the “thought of who Jesus would eventually be”, but through the actual Son of God.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,Something different that I saw as I was reading v16:
Jesus is obviously the “Creator” but the “for” him is indicating that creation belongs to someone else and is being “given” to him. Which would go along with Jesus being an heir and receiving an inheritance.
The Professor
Well hello there Professor Fun,
While I sometimes call Jesus God's “co-creator”, I always put it in quotes, because as Gene is quick to remind us, God ALONE created the heavens and the earth. And Rev 4:11 bears this out,
11″You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”It is scriptural that God did this through, or by means of His firstborn, but I shy away from the word “by”. Col 1:16 in the NIV which I quoted says “By him were all things created…..”. But the word used is “en”, which can just as easily be translated as “through” or “for”.
Gene thinks it should always be “for”, which is why I went with this scripture ahead of the Hebrews one. It shows that while “en”, “dia” and “eis” can all be translated as “for”, the use of two of them together at the end of verse 16 means that while one of them can mean “for”, the other must either mean “by” or “through”.
And to decide which on of those two it should be, I look to 1 Cor 8:6,
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This scripture makes it very clear that all things came FROM God, the Father. In other words, all things came to be BY God. Therefore, when I see the translations that use “BY Jesus”, I just mentally insert the words “through” or “by means of” instead, since either translation will work for that word.
Thus, while I know that all things came THROUGH Jesus, it is BY God that they came.
And even though you came to be BY God AND BY your parents, speaking of creation being “by” Jesus on a site where trinitarians are present is just opening up a can of worms that will take many posts to defend. Because they will jump on the “by” and say, “Well if creation is BY God and also BY Jesus, then Jesus IS God.”
You didn't say anything necessarily unscriptural in your post, but I'm just giving you fair warning of how they will jump on even a little word like “by” and start twisting. Then you're tied up for hours trying to untwist.
That's why I simply state that God ALONE is the Creator, and He created THROUGH His Son, Jesus Christ.
Btw, I agree He did it for His Son, just as you worked hard all your life to give good things to your children.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2010,11:09) Gene, Martian, barley, marty……..? Are you out there? mike
Mike,
You have completely ignored anything having to do with Hebrew culture or understanding of the word create so there is no purpose repeating it again.
The Hebrew root ברא (BaRA) is a child root formed out of the parent by adding the letter ברא. As a verb this word is used 46 times in the Hebrew Bible. Below are just a couple of these occurrences in the KJV translation (the underlined word is the translation of the word ברא).
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)
Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? (1Sa 2:29)
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps 51:10 or 12 in the Hebrew Bible)
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; (Ecc 12:1)
The first thing to remember when researching the original meaning of a word is that you need to find the “concrete” meaning of the word. Since “create” is an abstract it would be a foreign concept to the ancient Hebrews. We find the concrete meaning in 1 Samuel 2:29 which are “fat”. The actual word in this passage is lehavriyackem (LHBRYAKM). The L means “to”, the H makes the verb causative (make), BRA is the root, Y (placed between the R and A is also part of the causative form and the KM is “you” (plural) or yourselves”. Literally this word means “to make yourselves fat”.
Now let's see how this meaning applies to the other verses listed. In Genesis 1:1 it does not say that God “created” the heavens and the earth, instead he “fattened” them or “filled” them. Notice that the remaining chapter is about this “filling” of the heavens with sun, moon, birds and and the “filling” of the earth with animals, plants and man.
The “Create in me a clean heart” of Psalms 51:10 would better be translated as “fill me with a clean heart”.
The passage in Ecc 12:1 translates this verb (which is in the participle form meaning “one that fattens/fills”) as “Creator” but the truth is that this word is in the plural form and they should have at least translated it as “Creators”. This is often a problem when relying on a translation as the translator will often “fix” the text so that it makes more sense. But as this word means to fatten or fill, this should be understood as “fatteners” or “fillers”. I believe this verse is speaking about the “teachers” (ones who fill you with knowledge) of your youth.Though this is from the Hebrew, the Western concept of Creation would still be an abstract idea to the hebrew writers of this verse. They simply did not think in that way. Creation would mean filling and not making something out of nothing. That is an abstract and not a concrete concept.
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For through him were all things filled/brought to completion, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were filled/brought to completion by him, and for him:
Jesus is the corner stone of all of creation. Without Jesus there is no completion of the plan and purpose of God. Through him all things gain their ultimate purpose and find completion and filling up.
Again the Hebrews thought in very concrete terms. To them a fattened animal was a sign of complete fulfilment and satisfaction. It boded well for the tribe that had fatted sheep and cattle. We of Western cultures do not think about being hungry like they did as nomadic herdsmen. Fat was a good thing. A fatted calf was ready to complete it's purpose by supplying the needs of the tribe. Through Christ the creation completes it's purpose to raise up sons and daughters like Christ to the Father.
Mike………..1 Cor 8:6….> Yet for us there is but ONE GOD the FATHER, From whom (ALL) THINGS (CAME) and For whom we LIVE; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, (FOR) whom (ALL) things Came and (FOR) Whom we live.
Mike for Whom is the right word not through whom. No lets ask what this means , It simply means God Made (EVERYTHING) for the Purpose he purposed in Jesus Christ, That was the reason (FOR) him Making (ALL) things> For that specific Purpose and it is (FOR) this Purpose we LIVE.
This doe not violate Scripture that Say GOD (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) Made everything. In fact it backs it up right.
Mike you have proved nothing but how you can change words to push any dogmas, but if you compare them to the Old Testament you can get the cob weds out Brother. If it does not go along with the old testament then it is highly in doubt, IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,14:09) Well hello there Professor Fun, While I sometimes call Jesus God's “co-creator”, I always put it in quotes, because as Gene is quick to remind us, God ALONE created the heavens and the earth. And Rev 4:11 bears this out,
11″You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”It is scriptural that God did this through, or by means of His firstborn, but I shy away from the word “by”. Col 1:16 in the NIV which I quoted says “By him were all things created…..”. But the word used is “en”, which can just as easily be translated as “through” or “for”.
Gene thinks it should always be “for”, which is why I went with this scripture ahead of the Hebrews one. It shows that while “en”, “dia” and “eis” can all be translated as “for”, the use of two of them together at the end of verse 16 means that while one of them can mean “for”, the other must either mean “by” or “through”.
And to decide which on of those two it should be, I look to 1 Cor 8:6,
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This scripture makes it very clear that all things came FROM God, the Father. In other words, all things came to be BY God. Therefore, when I see the translations that use “BY Jesus”, I just mentally insert the words “through” or “by means of” instead, since either translation will work for that word.
Thus, while I know that all things came THROUGH Jesus, it is BY God that they came.
And even though you came to be BY God AND BY your parents, speaking of creation being “by” Jesus on a site where trinitarians are present is just opening up a can of worms that will take many posts to defend. Because they will jump on the “by” and say, “Well if creation is BY God and also BY Jesus, then Jesus IS God.”
You didn't say anything necessarily unscriptural in your post, but I'm just giving you fair warning of how they will jump on even a little word like “by” and start twisting. Then you're tied up for hours trying to untwist.
That's why I simply state that God ALONE is the Creator, and He created THROUGH His Son, Jesus Christ.
Btw, I agree He did it for His Son, just as you worked hard all your life to give good things to your children.
peace and love,
mike
Having read both Gene's and Martian's posts, it seemed good to me to point out another workable alternative.With almost 2000 years of misunderstanding, it will take a little work to get through all that fog.
From Colossians 1:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.verse 14 is clearly speaking of JC
verse 15, the who is JC, JC is the image of the invisible God,
first born could also mean beginning point. the first born is the beginning point of the rest of the family. Without a first born, there is only husband and wife. With the first born, that is the beginning point of a family.God is the beginning point of all creation. His intent was to have a family. Without God, there is nothing else but God.
verse 16, for by him, here's a question. Who is the “him”?
verse 17, likewise who is the he and who is the him?
The pronoun must have a noun that defines it.
from verse 15 we have four possibilities.
1. image
2. God
3. firstborn
4. creature or creation
Let's look at them:
1. image? No, an image is a secondary object. An image is the image of a primary object. A photo of a vase is an image. The vase is first, the image of it was second. Unless of course, the vase did not exist. Then the vase only existed in the mind of the artist. The vase was in the plans of the artist, but did not yet exist. in which case the image of the vase came before its actual existence. Jesus Christ was in the mind of God, God planned for JC.
2. God? Sure. read Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
3. first born or beginning point? yes, that too. God is the beginning point of all creation
4. creation? no, the creation is the result of God's creative activity.
God, the beginning point of all creation is the he and him of verses 16 and 17.
verse 18 who is the head of the body? Jesus Christ. the subject switches back to the image of God. The image of God is JC.
Read verses 16 and 17 in context of verses 14-18. If you have any practice in looking for structure in the scripture, it is readily apparent that verses 16 and 17 are the figure of speech, parenthesis. An insertion by reason of explanation.
I'll let you put that all together.
Preexistence does not exist.
barley
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,03:35) 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I wanted to go to Hebrews 1:2 next, but Gene has the default argument that all the “by's” and “through's” in the Bible are “for's”, so therefore the universe wasn't created “through” Jesus, but “for” him.
So I had to go to Col 1:16 to eliminate that default argument by showing that the two words at the end of verse 16 could not possibly BOTH mean “for”.
So, what do you say non-preexisters? The context is of God speaking to us through (or maybe “for”, right Gene?) His Son. This Son was the firstborn of every creature and all things were created through and for him. Notice it doesn't say all things were created through the “thought of who Jesus would eventually be”, but through the actual Son of God.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:Genesis tells us that God created man in His own image, and 1 Co 15 tells us that the first man was made a living soul, and the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Hebew1 tells us that Jesus is the “express image of God's person”, and Jesus tells us in John 14 that “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. The verse in Colossians that you quote states: that he is “the image of the invisible God”, and then the following verses tell us “for by him were all things created…”
God created everything in this world with the “Last Adam in mind”. He is the beginning of the new creation, and he is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him. It is by him and through him that God has fulfilled his plan for this world and the worlds to come and for humanity.
This is what these verses in Colossians 1 are about. No, he did not preexist his birth into this world as a sentient person.
Love in Christ,
MartyMartian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother.
peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one?
Give me a break!!!!!
Peace IreneQuote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,08:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one? Give me a break!!!!!
Peace Irene
hi Ireneyou so right ,they blind themselves to most of the bible scriptures,
and there conclusions are for that reason false,they must have a allegiance to a religion denomination interest,to do just that.
true Christians know if it does not apply in harmony of all scriptures it is false in the conclusion,
this is how we can see the works of the false brothers and the hypocrites just like at the time of Christ,
this was one of the reasons why Christ said “you do not know the scriptures” to the doctors of the LAW and the pharisees.
THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,NOT OF MEN.
Pierre
Quote (barley @ Aug. 25 2010,14:32) Read verses 16 and 17 in context of verses 14-18. If you have any practice in looking for structure in the scripture, it is readily apparent that verses 16 and 17 are the figure of speech, parenthesis. An insertion by reason of explanation.
I just read scripture as it is written, so I'm a little unaccustomed to your practice of making it fit into your own beliefs by “looking for structure in the scripture”.But just so I understand you correctly barley, you think Paul refers to the Father as the “firstborn of every creature”?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 26 2010,10:28) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,08:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one? Give me a break!!!!!
Peace Irene
hi Ireneyou so right ,they blind themselves to most of the bible scriptures,
and there conclusions are for that reason false,they must have a allegiance to a religion denomination interest,to do just that.
true Christians know if it does not apply in harmony of all scriptures it is false in the conclusion,
this is how we can see the works of the false brothers and the hypocrites just like at the time of Christ,
this was one of the reasons why Christ said “you do not know the scriptures” to the doctors of the LAW and the pharisees.
THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,NOT OF MEN.
Pierre
Hi Pierre, Irene, and Mike,I am a little naive. What religion teaches against a pre-existence?
That may explain why these people don't want to believe Scripture and go out of their way explaining Jewish culture, etc.
However, Paul was writing to Gentiles that had little to no knowledge of the OT or Jewish traditions and culture….and could care less.
v15 “He” (JC) is the Subject of the paragraph and it doesn't change. Whereas God is the object in this one verse, only.
v18 repeats “He is also….”
Even when the Father is mentioned again in v19 “Him” refers back to JC. v 20 “Himself” talks about His cross and is hard to deceive people…thru a fictitious explanation.
Let me know this “religion”, please.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,12:11) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 26 2010,10:28) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,08:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one? Give me a break!!!!!
Peace Irene
hi Ireneyou so right ,they blind themselves to most of the bible scriptures,
and there conclusions are for that reason false,they must have a allegiance to a religion denomination interest,to do just that.
true Christians know if it does not apply in harmony of all scriptures it is false in the conclusion,
this is how we can see the works of the false brothers and the hypocrites just like at the time of Christ,
this was one of the reasons why Christ said “you do not know the scriptures” to the doctors of the LAW and the pharisees.
THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,NOT OF MEN.
Pierre
Hi Pierre, Irene, and Mike,I am a little naive. What religion teaches against a pre-existence?
That may explain why these people don't want to believe Scripture and go out of their way explaining Jewish culture, etc.
However, Paul was writing to Gentiles that had little to no knowledge of the OT or Jewish traditions and culture….and could care less.
v15 “He” (JC) is the Subject of the paragraph and it doesn't change. Whereas God is the object in this one verse, only.
v18 repeats “He is also….”
Even when the Father is mentioned again in v19 “Him” refers back to JC. v 20 “Himself” talks about His cross and is hard to deceive people…thru a fictitious explanation.
Let me know this “religion”, please.
The Professor
But —- What Paul wrote could and would not contradict the OT and he was still of that culture and certain concepts would be totally foriegn to him.BTW – the belief that Christ did not pre-exist is the Christian faith. You should try it sometime.
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
God (YHWH) was talking to David's “Lord” Adonai.
If Jesus is David's Lord (Adonai), how could he not pre-exist his birth as Jesus? He was with David.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,19:11) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 26 2010,10:28) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,08:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one? Give me a break!!!!!
Peace Irene
hi Ireneyou so right ,they blind themselves to most of the bible scriptures,
and there conclusions are for that reason false,they must have a allegiance to a religion denomination interest,to do just that.
true Christians know if it does not apply in harmony of all scriptures it is false in the conclusion,
this is how we can see the works of the false brothers and the hypocrites just like at the time of Christ,
this was one of the reasons why Christ said “you do not know the scriptures” to the doctors of the LAW and the pharisees.
THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,NOT OF MEN.
Pierre
Hi Pierre, Irene, and Mike,I am a little naive. What religion teaches against a pre-existence?
That may explain why these people don't want to believe Scripture and go out of their way explaining Jewish culture, etc.
However, Paul was writing to Gentiles that had little to no knowledge of the OT or Jewish traditions and culture….and could care less.
v15 “He” (JC) is the Subject of the paragraph and it doesn't change. Whereas God is the object in this one verse, only.
v18 repeats “He is also….”
Even when the Father is mentioned again in v19 “Him” refers back to JC. v 20 “Himself” talks about His cross and is hard to deceive people…thru a fictitious explanation.
Let me know this “religion”, please.
The Professor
DBFhere it is;;Denial of the doctrine
Throughout history there have been various groups and individuals believing that Jesus' existence began when he was conceived. Those denying the pre-existence of Christ can be broadly divided into two streams:1. Those who nevertheless accept the virgin birth. This includes Socinians,[24] and early Unitarians such as John Biddle,[25] and Nathaniel Lardner.[26] Today the view is primarily held by Christadelphians.[27]
2. Those who also deny the virgin birth. This includes Ebionites and later Unitarians, such as Joseph Priestley,[28][29][30], Thomas Jefferson,[31][32] as well as modern Unitarian Universalists. This view is often described as adoptionism, and in the 19th Century was also called psilanthropism. Samuel Taylor Coleridge described himself as having once been a psilanthropist, believing Jesus to be the “real son of Joseph.”[33] Friedrich Schleiermacher, sometimes called “the father of liberal theology”,[34] was one of many German theologians who departed from the idea of personal ontological pre-existence of Christ, teaching that “Christ was not God but was created as the ideal and perfect man whose sinlessness constituted his divinity.”[34] Similarly Albrecht Ritschl rejected the pre-existence of Christ, asserting that Christ was the “Son of God” only in the sense that “God had revealed himself in Christ”[34] and Christ “accomplished a religious and ethical work in us which only God could have done.”[34] Later, Rudolf Bultmann described the pre-existence of Christ as “not only irrational but utterly meaningless.”[35]
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,14:53) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,19:11) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 26 2010,10:28) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,08:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 25 2010,15:21) Martian, barley, Marty………….right on brothers, Preexistence is nothing but a false teaching deriving its source from the trinitarians and created to backup their Jesus is a GOD dogmas. Thank GOD of you guise at least some see and understand this. Barley i believe verse 16 and 17 are talking about GOD the Father himself also brother. peace and love to you all………………………………………gene
All of your beef is in the Scriptures and should not be in the person that wants to go by those Scriptures. I rather believe them, that translated those Scriptures, then any of you here. If it would only be one Scripture, I could maybe go along with you…. However there are several Scriptures that either talk about the firstborn of all creation or that by Jesus own words says, that He was in Heaven with His Father. Just to talk about Jesus and ignoring that He will come back as The Word of God in Rev. 19:13-16 is wrong, to say the least…. I had asked you gene the question if the description in Rev, 19 could fit any other person? Yet you also ignore that…..There is no other Being that has a robe on dipped in blood, and that will come again with thousands of Angels on white Horses…..there is no one that fits the description that He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Who is it, if not Jesus who was and is The Word of God, no word from Jehovah God can become flesh, or has ever been seen, except Him who was with His Father in Heaven, before the world was….John 17:5 Scripture says so….
John 1:1-15
John 3:17
John 3:12-15
6:38-40
8:58
17:5
Rev. 19:13-16
You all are ignoring all of these Scriptures, if you want to believe what gene is saying. Scriptures say something else and gene says it is according to the Trinitarian doctrine. The trinity has nothing to do with it….There is no talk about God's Holy Spirit at all…. ..Three person in one? Give me a break!!!!!
Peace Irene
hi Ireneyou so right ,they blind themselves to most of the bible scriptures,
and there conclusions are for that reason false,they must have a allegiance to a religion denomination interest,to do just that.
true Christians know if it does not apply in harmony of all scriptures it is false in the conclusion,
this is how we can see the works of the false brothers and the hypocrites just like at the time of Christ,
this was one of the reasons why Christ said “you do not know the scriptures” to the doctors of the LAW and the pharisees.
THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,NOT OF MEN.
Pierre
Hi Pierre, Irene, and Mike,I am a little naive. What religion teaches against a pre-existence?
That may explain why these people don't want to believe Scripture and go out of their way explaining Jewish culture, etc.
However, Paul was writing to Gentiles that had little to no knowledge of the OT or Jewish traditions and culture….and could care less.
v15 “He” (JC) is the Subject of the paragraph and it doesn't change. Whereas God is the object in this one verse, only.
v18 repeats “He is also….”
Even when the Father is mentioned again in v19 “Him” refers back to JC. v 20 “Himself” talks about His cross and is hard to deceive people…thru a fictitious explanation.
Let me know this “religion”, please.
The Professor
DBFhere it is;;Denial of the doctrine
Throughout history there have been various groups and individuals believing that Jesus' existence began when he was conceived. Those denying the pre-existence of Christ can be broadly divided into two streams:1. Those who nevertheless accept the virgin birth. This includes Socinians,[24] and early Unitarians such as John Biddle,[25] and Nathaniel Lardner.[26] Today the view is primarily held by Christadelphians.[27]
2. Those who also deny the virgin birth. This includes Ebionites and later Unitarians, such as Joseph Priestley,[28][29][30], Thomas Jefferson,[31][32] as well as modern Unitarian Universalists. This view is often described as adoptionism, and in the 19th Century was also called psilanthropism. Samuel Taylor Coleridge described himself as having once been a psilanthropist, believing Jesus to be the “real son of Joseph.”[33] Friedrich Schleiermacher, sometimes called “the father of liberal theology”,[34] was one of many German theologians who departed from the idea of personal ontological pre-existence of Christ, teaching that “Christ was not God but was created as the ideal and perfect man whose sinlessness constituted his divinity.”[34] Similarly Albrecht Ritschl rejected the pre-existence of Christ, asserting that Christ was the “Son of God” only in the sense that “God had revealed himself in Christ”[34] and Christ “accomplished a religious and ethical work in us which only God could have done.”[34] Later, Rudolf Bultmann described the pre-existence of Christ as “not only irrational but utterly meaningless.”[35]
Pierre
That is old data.
There are countless that do not believe in the Trinity or the pre-existence. Most of those have also given up on being pigeon holed into a particular denomination so they do not fit your categories. Even in my own small circle I know hundreds of non-denominational Christians that do not believe in the pre-existence.martain…………….God is bringing people out of those false Pagan teachings brother, and it is good to be part of it.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2010,11:20) martain…………….God is bringing people out of those false Pagan teachings brother, and it is good to be part of it. peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Depending how one wants to take what you wrote…
“It is good to be part of it.” False pagan teachings…..
It could be hilarious, no?
Col 1:16 For in (by) Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
You guys can quote Greek structure however, in English you missed the part that “He” is referring to Jesus and never goes back to the Father as I mentioned before.
This is how I can believe in Jesus as my Creator but not my GOD.
There are too many scriptures that you need to deny and change to fit your beliefs…..doesn't this bother you? And you don't have Scripture to back up what you say, and this bothers me.
The Professor
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2010,03:20) martain…………….God is bringing people out of those false Pagan teachings brother, and it is good to be part of it. peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Gene! You count yourself as believing that Christ did not come from Heaven, yet Scriptures say that He did. Also that The Word of God became flesh, yet you insist that it is the word of Jehovah God. It is not and He will come again as The Word of God and King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Rev. 19:13-16. I have asked you before and I do not think you ever answered my question before- what being does it fit that description??? He has a robe on dipped with blood and His name is called:” The Word of God.” That is a He and not an it….Peace Irene
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