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Hi Lisa,
No. He never was and he is not.He is the Son compared with the Father. Sons are derived from their fathers. They cannot exist except by the agency and will of their fathers. Fathers are before sons.
But he is the firstborn, the exact image of the Father. He existed before all other things and all other things were created through him. Under God he is the most extraordinary being. John said “he saw his glory,the glory of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
“He did not regard equality a thing to be grasped”though he was “in the form of God” according to Phil 2.6. The word”grasped”in the greek is derived from a word meaning to steal ar rob or pillage. That says he could have attempted to challenge his Father but instead chose not to but rather to submit and obey.
Because of this proven loyalty he was given the full authority of the Father Himself. He was filled with all of God's powers and graces and came in the Name of the Father to bring the offer of salvation to every man.
God was with Him. God was in Him as Spirit. He was glorified again as he prayed on his return to the Father and given the Kingdom to restore and rule in the Name of the Father till all things are restored in order. Then he will hand back everything and resubmit himself to the Father.
Such is the mighty Son of God, the door of the Sheep.
Amen Nick
In the law the firstborn son was heir to 50% of the Father's goods. This 50:50 position was not equality however, for the father remained his father and he continued to honour him.
From the other perspective, if a human being has a son that son is human. Yet the father came first and will always hold seniority.
Now in the case of God, he has children also. He is eternal. So it follows that His eternal life will be in His children. Yet they are not God and God came before any of them.Quote (Lisa @ Oct. 17 2005,21:18) Is Jesus co-equal with the Father?
Christ himself stated very clearly “the Father is greater than I.” This verse alone is sufficient to show they are not “equal,” though there are a great many verses like this that also illustrate the fact the Father is greater than the Son.“You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
John 14:28Hi tbfu,
This is the most modern addition to the false trinity dogma and the weakest point. There is no scriptural basis for equality even if one could grasp the foreign concept of three in one.It is interesting to me that many grab a hold of the “us” aspect of Genesis [“Let us make man in our image”]as evidence of three persons in one being communicating with one another.
That is a most bizzarre thought.
Do they not know other divine beings, the sons of God, were present when the foundations of the world were laid?[Jb 38.7]
Quote It is interesting to me that many grab a hold of the “us” aspect of Genesis [“Let us make man in our image”]as evidence of three persons in one being communicating with one another. That is a most bizzarre thought.
Do they not know other divine beings, the sons of God, were present when the foundations of the world were laid?[Jb 38.7]
Indeed angels and the heavenly host were present, but can we attribute creative acts to them? I know the scripture says God created all things through Jesus Christ, but I don't read of angels being included.
The fact that GOD created all things THROUGH Jesus Christ does not make Jesus CO-EQUAL though, it makes him the agency for creation, even as he is the agency for salvation, for we are saved by GOD through Jesus Christ.Hi Malcolm,
No. I agree and did not want to give that implication.I do not see written that angels played any part in creation, unlike the work of the carpenter doing his work under the aegis of the builder.True, true
Rev 22 is often used to support the idea that Jesus is co-equal, supposedly the Throne of God and the Lamb is proof of this.
I would venture to say that it is a joint throne but not co-equality.Hi Malcolm,
The relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph would seem similar. Joseph was given full authroty by Pharaoh, and he could act as Pharoah, but he was always under the authority of Pharaoh?Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,03:58) True, true Rev 22 is often used to support the idea that Jesus is co-equal, supposedly the Throne of God and the Lamb is proof of this.
I would venture to say that it is a joint throne but not co-equality.
If Trinitarians could only grasp that as the Father exalts Jesus for being faithful, so too does Jesus exalt his disciples.
That Jesus is the firstfruits of what God intends us to become, although giving him the preeminence in all things.
It's pretty simple isn't it?Who were they who introduced the confusion and complication from something so straightforward? They had to be the antiChrist who John spoke of in his epistle. They went out from among them but were not a part of them… but they were permitted that they might be made manifest as not being part of the true worshippers of YHWH. All you who hold to the Trinity and Modalism, please abandon these doctrines for they have been tested and found to be false, grossly wanting.
Luke 22:28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
There are several verses along this theme as to make it authentic and rightly understood.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,04:04) Exactly
Every knee had to bow to Joseph but Pharaoh lost none of his glory…
JOHN 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 05 2006,04:29) Good question.
Jesus is the SON OF GOD, are sons OF God of the same life as God?
He he. Was Jesus birthed by the Father? I find no biblical account of this, can you point me to a verse?If Jesus is coequal then how do we reconcile this with scripture in which Jesus says:
JOHN 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.and I know the next verse says “I and my Father are one”, It does not say “I am my Father” or “I am equal with my Father” – it is speaking of the unity they have in will and purpose.
Jesus also said
JOHN 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.MARK 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.I would hardly call that co equality.
I CORINTHIANS 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.I don't see co-equality expressed here either.
Hi Is 1.18,
Is Jesus not the Son of God?
If he is still part of a trinity god then he cannot be a son of that God any more than us sons of God, or ordinary sons of our parents, are still part of our fathers.If you read the sequence of Hebrews 1.5 you will see the first is Ps 2″Today I have begotten thee”
Then God is as a parent to him[2 Sam 7.14]
Then the Father brings his son into the world.That seems like an interesting choice to have as a sequence.
Quote (truebelief4u @ April 04 2006,18:52) Quote (Lisa @ Oct. 17 2005,21:18) Is Jesus co-equal with the Father?
Christ himself stated very clearly “the Father is greater than I.” This verse alone is sufficient to show they are not “equal,” though there are a great many verses like this that also illustrate the fact the Father is greater than the Son.“You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
John 14:28
What does “greater” mean in this context?MATTHEW 11:11
“Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater that John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”Was John the Baptist superior in nature to all other men? On the other hand all believers would be greater in nature to John who was the greatest born of women.
LUKE 22:27
“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.”Was Jesus lesser in nature than those He served? This would mean that the disciples were were of greater ontology than Him.
JOHN 4:12
“You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?”Was the woman asking Jesus if he was of a superior ontology to Jacob?
JOHN 8:53
'Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”Did the Jews ask if Jesus was of a superior ontology to Abraham?
Truebelief4U, if you hold to the idea that the word “greater” (Gr.=meizon), can be rendered as “better” (i.e., superior in ontology), then verses I cited make no sense.
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