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Hi Adam,
Sorry, I don’t understand your position.
Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah?
Please answer so that I can understand your position.
Thanks.Hi Danny,
You: Sorry, I don’t understand your position.
Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah?
Please answer so that I can understand your position.Me: I am sorry we are not here to question the beliefs of others but we are only debating on the doctrines of Christianity.
The spirit of bondage is engendered by seeking to live in accordance with legal religion, by striving to meet the demands of the law by our own strength. There is hope for us only when we are subject to the covenant of Abraham, which is the covenant of grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The gospel preached to Abraham, by which he had hope, was the same as that which is preached to us today, by which we have hope. Abraham looked to Jesus, who is also the Author and Rewarder of our faith. “(Translated from Ellen G. White Comment, The SDA Bible Comments, vol. 6, p. 1077.
“During their bondage in Egypt, the Hebrews had largely lost the knowledge of the law of God, and had mingled its precepts with pagan customs and traditions. God brought them to the foot of Sinai, and there He proclaimed His law. ”-Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 136.
The covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai was a covenant of grace. Having given abundant proof of His love and benevolence through extraordinary deliverance from Egyptian slavery, God invited the nation to enter into a covenant with Him that would maintain and promote their freedoms. Although Israel replied in the affirmative, it lacked genuine faith motivated by love. Their later history indicates that for the most part they failed to understand the true nature of the covenant and corrupted it into a system of salvation by works. We don’t need to follow Israel’s failure and ignore the wonderful grace that has been given to sinners.
The true Israel of God (whether before or after the cross) is the Israel of faith, of people who live in a spiritual covenant relationship with Him. These people are His representatives, and they present to the world the gospel of His saving grace.
Jesus Christ fulfilled Isaiah 51
Me: I have already presented my arguments on Isaiah 53 in my earlier reply as it was about nation Israel as God’s servant.
gadam, clearly, you have failed if you believe that this is about Israel and not Jesus Christ. Anyone can see who this is about. No excuses. But let’s drop our intellectual level right down and pretend that this is about Israel, all the while without laughing. Now let’s see what Israel has done for the world instead of Jesus.
- Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
- Israel took up our pain, bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
- Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
- Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many, and bear their iniquities;
Wow Israel died for our sins. Isn’t that amazing? Do you thank Israel every day for this salvation?
Clearly, any dummy can see that this is a prophecy for the messiah or savior. And Israel is not the messiah or savior. I do not think even the Jews believe that they are the messiah and savior. Time to rethink your theology gadam.
Isaiah 51
1. Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.Psalm 22
gadam claims that the Old Testament does not speak of Jesus Christ in any way. While I have already proved his assumption wrong by quoting Isaiah 51, I now offer Psalm 22.
When Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. Back then, it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearer would recite the rest of the scripture. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening. See Matthew 27:46:
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Compare with Pslam 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.gadam, that is now 2 parts of the Old Testament that clearly refer to the coming suffering messiah. And only one entity in history has fulfilled them. Of course it is hidden from the wicked, but only the righteous will understand.
Hi Proclaimer thanks for your posts on showing Jesus as the Messiah and saviour.
You: Wow Israel died for our sins. Isn’t that amazing? Do you thank Israel every day for this salvation?
Clearly, any dummy can see that this is a prophecy for the messiah or savior. And Israel is not the messiah or savior. I do not think even the Jews believe that they are the messiah and savior. Time to rethink your theology gadam.
Me: I have brought out the arguments on Isaiah 53 stating that it was about the nation Israel as per context of the book of Isaiah. As per the Jewish interpretation it was not about Messiah. Please see the text it clearly about the past and not for future.
1.“He [Israel] was wounded because of (מ) our [the nations] transgression.” (Isaiah 53:5). In this verse the Hebrew letter (מ) means “because of” or “from.” It is never translated as “for” which would incorrectly indicate a vicarious atonement.
2. “For the transgression of my people they (למו) were stricken.” (Isaiah 53:8). The word they (למו) is plural (see Psalm 99:7) and clearly indicates that this verse does not refer to a single individual.
In Matthew 16, we see that Jesus himself does not claim to be Messiah. Jesus asks his disciples, “Who do you think I am?” One answers “Elijah,” another, that he is John the Baptist. Peter thinks he is the Messiah. However, when Jesus then says that he must go up to Jerusalem, be killed, and resurrected on the third day. Peter rebukes him “God forbid it, lord, this shall never happen to you.”
One may ask “Why does Peter need to rebuke Jesus?” If, indeed he is the promised messiah, then Peter, no doubt familiar with Isaiah 53, should have had no problem. Yet, since neither he, nor any other apostle of Jesus knew of any strange concept of Messiah suffering, dying, and being resurrected, they did not see Isaiah 53 as being a definitive passage containing information defining the “suffering servant” and vicarious atonement role of Messiah.
On Psalm 22:
For Christians Psalm 22 became a foreshadowing of the crucifixion of Jesus. The typological approach to sacred scripture was not unknown among Jews, but it became the characteristic Christian method of reading and understanding the Jewish Scriptures. It was common for Christians to believe that the Jewish Scriptures contained hints and allusions that foreshadowed events in the life of Jesus. Events in the life and death of Jesus were created to reflect the foreshadowing found in biblical verses (e.g., virgin conception, resurrection). 5 typologies were used to prove later Christian beliefs and practices (e.g., the Trinity, Eucharist). Typologies were found in such biblical figures as Adam, Joseph, Moses, and David who were said to prefigure Jesus. One could supposedly see common parallels in the lives of these biblical personalities and that of Jesus.
The typological approach was seen by Christians as confirmation that God had prearranged events in the so-called Old Testament as forshadowings of events occurring in the New Testament. This notion is expressed in the Latin saying: Quod in vetere latet in novo patet (“What is hidden in the Old [Testament] is made explicit in the New”). Therefore, it comes as no surprise that Psalm 22 should be seen as just such a prefiguring of the crucifixion. However, when this claim is carefully scrutinized the interpretation’s validity must be rejected.
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
There are several versions recorded by the evangelists as to what were Jesus’ last words from the cross. Mark, followed generally by Matthew, gives this account: And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders having heard it were saying: “Behold, he is calling for Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink, saying: “Let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and expired. (Mark 15:34-37)Jesus’ cry of anguish: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” is the second verse of Psalm 22. But why should Jesus have expressed this sentiment? Why should he have thought of himself as separated from God at the very moment when, according to Christian theology, he was fulfilling God’s plan? Luke and John omit this cry in their crucifixion accounts, and instead, imply that Jesus himself was in complete control of the event. According to Luke, Jesus’ final cry was: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46), words taken from Psalms 31:6. John also views the crucifixion not as abandonment by God, but as the conclusion of Jesus’ alleged divine mission, in which he peacefully surrenders his soul to God. Thus, John writes: “He bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (John 19:30). Christians, attempting to explain Jesus’ feeling of abandonment, as recorded by Matthew and Mark, contend that in reality he had in mind, not only the despairing words with which Psalm 22 opens, but also the trusting words with which this psalm ends. But this argument from silence amounts to putting words in Jesus’ mouth. Whether Jesus knew the theme of the entire psalm is of no consequence.
What matters is that he allegedly only made use of the opening words of a psalm, to express his despair and failed to continue with the concluding words of the psalm expressive of hope and trust in God. Furthermore, it makes little sense to see in Psalm 22 prophecies depicting the agony felt by Jesus at his crucifixion. Are we to believe that Jesus, who is supposed to be a supernatural being that is part of the Godhead and God’s only begotten son, fell into deep depression and anguish because God refused to help him in his hour of need?
Isaiah 59:20
What does Christianity do with this clear biblical teaching that we can master sin? Christianity simply changes the Bible. It presents a contradictory and incorrect translation of how God instructed mankind to turn from sin, as is demonstrated in a blatant Christian mistranslation of Isaiah 59:20. In the Hebrew original, this verse says:
“A redeemer will come to Zion; and unto those who turn
from transgression.” Isaiah 59:20This verse clearly demonstrates two points: 1) People can turn from transgression; and, 2) The redeemer of Israel will come to Zion and to those who turn away from sin on their own accord.
However, in the Christian New Testament the same verse in Isaiah is incorrectly quoted to give the impression that it is the messiah who removes sin. Romans 11:26 says:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion , He will remove
ungodliness from Jacob.” Romans 11:26The mistranslation of the words “to Zion” to “from Zion” and, “those who turn from transgression” to “He will remove ungodliness,” distorts the meaning of the original text. This is an attempt to support the incorrect Christian belief that a messianic redeemer will remove sin. According to the Bible, sincere repentance has always been the fundamental method of removing sin.
Hi Berean you messaged me the following;
Zacharie 6:13
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
[13] Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.For me”the man whose NAME is the Branch” as a Priest, IS about Jesus Christ man.
This IS HIM whose Paul speak in Hebrews 6:20; 7:17,21-28 ; all thé CHAPTER 8; chap.9:11 ….….and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.(God AND Christ)
Me: Is it true that Zechariah 6:12-13 speaks of the Messiah as both a king and a priest? Let’s find out in this;
Answer: The passage reads: “Behold a man whose name is the Branch (Shoot), who will spring up out of his place and build the Temple of the Lord. And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].”
Some commentators identify the “man whose name is Shoot” as Zerubbabel others as the Messiah. “The Shoot” is called a ruler, and he is to build the Temple of the Lord. Moreover, the text does not speak of one individual but of two, the ruler and the (high) priest, Joshua. Both individuals will interact harmoniously with each other, “And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].” Thus, there is no truth to the suggestion that “the Shoot” combines the office of king and high priest.
In the story of the rise of Solomon as king, David sends his son to the Kidron valley, east of Jerusalem, where Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet would anoint him as the rightful successor to the throne (1 Kgs 1:32-37). Following these instructions, Solomon rides on his father’s mule, and, once at the assigned place, Zadok the priest pours out the anointing oil on David’s son, declaring him the new king over Israel (1 Kgs 1:38-39). As is well known, the remaining chapters of 1 Kings tell us that Solomon initiates a period of peace within Israel (cf. 1 Kgs 3:13; 10:23-25); and absolutely crucial to those decades of prosperity was the fulfilment of Yahweh’s promise to David: Solomon builds the First Temple in Jerusalem, where Zadok officiates as high priest (cf. 2 Samuel 7).
In resemblance to Solomon’s greatest achievement, moreover, ‘the Branch [צמח]’ would lead the completion of the Second Temple (Zech 6:12-13; cf. 3:8; 1 Kings 6–10).[4]
More importantly, just as 1 Kings assumes a pristine relationship between Solomon and Zadok (cf. 1 Kgs 1:8; 2:35; 4:2), Zechariah envisages the perfection of the dual rule between king and priest: alongside the Branch, ‘there shall be a priest by his throne, and there shall be peaceful counsel between the two of them [והיה כהן על־כסאו ועצת שׁלום תהיה בין שׁניהם]’ (Zech 6:13; cf. 4:14). To state that Zechariah’s vision is comparable to what is said of Solomon in 1 Kings is not, of course, to assume that this is the only way post-exilic Jews idealized Israel’s national affairs. It is to say, however, that the proper relation between king and priest had come to the fore in Jewish imagination about the future already by the first century CE.
Gadam
Thanks you To remember me for the good thread….
Harmony between OT and NT
Isaiah 51:16
I put my words in your mouth, and cover you with the shadow of my hand, to expand new heavens, and to found a new earth, and to say to Zion, you are my people!Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth which I am about to create shall stand before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name.2 Peter 3:13
But we are waiting, according to his promise, for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.Revelation 21: 1-5
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.…THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD IN THE OT AND NT
Revelation 22:14
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.1 John
Who so ever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.1 john 2
… 3If we keep his commandments, by this we know that we have known him. 4He that saith, I have known him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But he who keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfect in him: by this we know that we are in him.…1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is everything.God’s law in the New Testament
I
You will worship the Lord your God and serve Him alone (Matthew 4:10).
II
Little children, beware of idols (1 John 5:21).
So therefore, being of the race of God, we are not to believe that the Godhead is like gold, silver, or stone, carved by the art and industry of the man (Acts 17:29).III
May the name of God and his doctrine not be blasphemed (1 Timothy 6: 1).
IV
Pray that your escape does not happen in winter, nor on a Sabbath (Matthew 24:20).
The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of man is also Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27 and 28).
For he spake thus somewhere on the seventh day: And God rested from all these works on the seventh day. So there remains a Sabbath rest for God’s people (Hebrews 4: 4, 9 and 10).
For in him all things that are in the heavens and in the earth were created (Colossians 1:16).V
Honor your father and your mother (Matthew 19:19).
VI
You shall not kill (Romans 13: 9).
VII
You shall not commit adultery (Matthew 19:18).
VIII
You shall not steal (Romans 13: 9).
IX
You shall not speak false witness (Romans 13: 9).
X
Thou shalt not covet (Romans 7: 7).
“Cast all your worries on him, for he cares for you (1 Peter 5: 7).
“Do not tire of praying (Luke 18: 1; 1 Thessalonians 5:17).
“Not like me I want, but as you want (Luke 22:42; Matthew 26:39).
Will is the faculty to choose, determining power, sovereign power (My Life Today, p. 318).
Hi Berean, thanks for changing the thread.
You: Harmony between OT and NT
Me: Sorry I am not saying that the whole NT is contradictory with Hebrew Bible. We are debating on the texts of Hebrew Bible which were misinterpreted and taken them out of their original contexts by the NT writers. If you are interested you can go through my previous posts.
Hi Adam,
What you are doing is wrong.
You are casting doubts on God’s Word.
There are no “Misquoting Texts” as you said in the NT.
The Bible Old and New Testament was inspired by God.
It’s the same God.
Only Satan wants you to doubt God’s Word.Hi To all
Seeds of life
from Pastor R. J .Wieland
Why isn’t God destroying our wicked world now? The answer is found in the Israelite sanctuary service:
(a) Each day two lambs were offered on the burnt offering altar, one in the morning and one in the evening, for the benefit of each of those who lived within the boundaries of Israel. Foreigners and good guys were also included. They were not based on repentance and confession. No question was asked. the lambs were offered as a continuous burnt offering (Exodus 29: 38-42). To be a human being was all that was needed to come under the protection of God’s abundant grace.
(b) This is the Gospel in “shadow”, the “moon” of Revelation 12: 1. The meaning becomes clearer when the “sun” of the New Testament rises: “God was in Christ, reconciling the world with itself “(2 Corinthians 5:19). “By the ineffable gift of his Son, God has surrounded the whole world with an atmosphere of grace just as real as the air that circulates around our globe” (The Best Way, p. 66). The daily service of the two lambs was a ministry for the benefit of the whole world. When Jesus came to ask John to be baptized, he refused. Jesus had to give him a Bible study there, in the water, to make him understand that He was the Lamb symbolized by the daily sacrifice. “And John resisted him no more” (Matthew 3:15).
(c) The next day John introduced Jesus as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Not “probably” or “maybe” or “he would like”. Nor “the Lamb who takes away the sin of some”. Why this universal sacrifice of atonement? “He himself is an atoning victim for our sins, not only for our own, but also for those of the whole world” (1 John 2: 2).
(d) The incense offered on the altar of incense, which burned continuously or daily, was also a type or representation of the universal ministry of intercession. Only the unbroken blood of Christ can keep this wicked world from destruction (Revelation 8: 3-5). When he stops presenting his blood, the time of distress will come.
Thank God for “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”! There can’t be better news. Good news for you and for me if we respond to his ministry in the Most Holy Place “as long as we can say today”.
R.J.W.
Hi Danny,
You: What you are doing is wrong.
You are casting doubts on God’s Word.
There are no “Misquoting Texts” as you said in the NT.
The Bible Old and New Testament was inspired by God.
It’s the same God.
Only Satan wants you to doubt God’s Word.Me: I am sorry if I am offending anyone here. Please remember we are not preaching the Gospel here on this thread which is under Skeptics section. We are only debating the on the doctrines and writings of the Bible here.
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