Christ was not created!!!!

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,08:01)

bump SF: Quote like i said, from ancient times? which verse are you refering to again?  remember i told you that its refers to the hebrew “olam”? The verse is Micah 5:2….just like it says where I posted it on page one of this thread sonny.  And one of the words IS “owlam”.  Here's what NETBible says: Micah 5:2 NET As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past. There is a footnote after “distant past”, which says: “distant past”…….Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4. I don't see what point you are arguing.  Matthew says this prophecy IS about Jesus, and this prophecy says Jesus had a beginning.  It says his “origins” (which the LXX authors translate as “arche”, which means “beginning”) are “from the past, from days of antiquity”.  This verse says that Jesus DID have a beginning, and it took place in “ancient times”. Do you understand this passage, or do we need to discuss it some more? peace and love, mike

It does not say that Jesus has a beginning.
What DAY was that in Eternity Mike?
There are other Verses that say he IS the beginning,
but this verse only suggests that he exited before time.
This verse does not prove that.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,02:20)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,01:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2010,01:11) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,01:23) Dennison, Thanks for your picture. So are you saying by this picture that the Father is a 'part of' God, the Son is a 'part of' God, and the Holy Spirit is a 'part of' God? Lu, No, lets define the Terms correctly. I dont believe that God was ALWAYS Father sense that depends if he has a creation to be a Father too. Jesus was not ALWAYS “son” for he was the “Word” before that. And the Holy Spirit, which isnt really part of this dicussion i guess, is simply what it is God spirit. The Picture to represents this.   In scripture we know that in Isaiah and in Revelations God says that he will be a God to his people. The Term Father was never mentioned UNTIL Jesus came, and in Revelations is not even used to identify God. Lets take another shot at this, lets go back to the picture. A) Jesus is what you see here in this picture, look at the picture and everything that you are able to see. B) The Totality of God is everythign that you cant see and what is currently happening within the Tree. How far the Roots go, even to what are happen in an molecular level. Point being that Jesus came to reveal This Totality as the Father, because we are adopted THROUGH Jesus. so that we may cry out “Abba” Father. Again, Jesus is what you see, ITs impossible to SEE the Totality of God. Jesus is like that Rock that Moses hid behind to “SEE” God. because to SEE God is to die, its TOO much. Does that make any sense? Dennison, Can you just come over and I'll make you a healthy lunch so we can discuss this?  I see what you are saying but I have some questions for you… Was the 'word' a person before the creation of living things?   When was the 'word' begotten? What was the 'word' before being begotten? Does the Son stop being a son in the future? Lu, you live in Texas? lol well you can give me a call anytime. perferrably at night. or when im online. was  the word  a person? from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember. I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. and things that were unseen. So it depends what do you mean by person? When was the “word” begotten? the word is life, life started in the beginning. what was the word before being begotten? What IS the word if its somethign that we can see? simply taken it was always with God. does the son stop being son in the future? He already redeemed, he comes as a king of kings. to be honest it doenst say, but he is not mentioned as the son in the future but as a lamb, as a husband, and as Lord. Its like saying when was he Emmanuel? Truth is I Dont know, i did my best to answer Can you tell me? Hi Dennison, I live in the eastern time zone.  I shy away from talking about this on the phone.  I wonder how effective it would be to skype out differences and find the similarities.  I would rather you just came for lunch, LOL.  Things handled in person are the best, I think.  I know…just wishful thinking. So you said that the 'word' is an action verb?  Isn't logos a noun? I believe that the 'word' is the offspring of God and is the image of God and the form of God and the exact representation of God.  He was within God and then was begotten to be with God before the ages.  That sounds like a son to me.  Not a physical person, but a person in a way that God is a person and takes on the appearance of what He needs to, to carry out the purpose of His Father.  To define that further is beyond me. When was the 'word' begotten?  You say that the word is life and that life started in the beginning.  The beginning of what? I would say that the 'word' existed 'with' the Father at least by the time just before the creation of things in heaven and on earth. What was the word before being begotten? Your answer does not answer the question. I would say that the word was the pre-begotten Son, carrier of all the Father can give Him and completely within the person of God, not with Him yet but simply in Him from all time. Does the Son stop being the Son in the future? You say that He already redeemed and comes as a king of kings.  Isn't He still the Son of God even as the king of kings and the Mediator and the High Priest? He became Emmanuel when He came by birth from Mary. This is my limited understanding at this point.  Thanks for your answers. Take care!

lol wishful thinking,
you never know i might show up!

About it being a action verb, i have no idea.
I would also think its a noun, but i heard once it was called an action verb, im going to study what they meant and hit you back with an explanation.

Image Agreed.

I think the Word always Existed, but when you say begotten im trying to understand in what way you mean.

I believe that as soon as God took particapation within time and space, that is the word.

before the Word, = Sure

Son Future= I dont know, it says he has a Throne?

Im not going to lie, honestly i dont know how to answer your questions,
Its gotten to the point where my mind cant even wrap aronud such ideas or concepts.

but I TRIED! =)

Much love!

[Lightenup]

Thanks Dennison,
The word in 1 John 1 is called the word of life so maybe that has something to do with the 'action' idea. If you think about it, God always existed and then there had to be a first thing to exist in a living way after Him. So, that would be the 'word of life' and revealed to us as the Son of God. The Son is an extension of that eternal life as I understand things.

So, I think that the Son was begotten when that eternal life within the Father was extended to an existence apart from the Father to be with the Father.

I hear you about this being hard to wrap your mind around but maybe we are just trying to make it hard. I think that it is as simple as God continuing Himself through another person, a Son.

[Baker]

Hi Dennison!  You say that Christ did not have a beginning?  Then do you believe in a Trinity?  That is what WJ believes that Christ did not have a beginning.  However there are two Scripture
, that tell us, that I know of that, Christ was created by God our Heavenly Father.  
Col. 1:15 and rev. 3:14 in
Rev. 3:14 …”These things says, The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God.”
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation….
God is a Creator and He creates….. Jesus is the literal Son of God, He came forth from God.  Not out of the dust of the earth like us Humans….How God produced Jesus , I don't think is known….How does God do anything.?… I also believe that God by His Holy Spirit keeps all alive….. What a miracle that happens every year.  The Tree's , the Flowers etc.  and we just don't even think of it….every year He creates anew….Peace Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,17:40)

Thanks Dennison, The word in 1 John 1 is called the word of life so maybe that has something to do with the 'action' idea.  If you think about it, God always existed and then there had to be a first thing to exist in a living way after Him.  So, that would be the 'word of life' and revealed to us as the Son of God. The Son is an extension of that eternal life as I understand things. So, I think that the Son was begotten when that eternal life within the Father was extended to an existence apart from the Father to be with the Father. I hear you about this being hard to wrap your mind around but maybe we are just trying to make it hard.  I think that it is as simple as God continuing Himself through another person, a Son.

Actually i like the way you worded it,
because the idea i usually think of is like that God is eternal and that to participate within “time” which is a limitation, and “space” although he is bigger than anything.

that for him to participate in a limited world is the “word”
Just like you said, but i say it in such a complicated way lol………………..

either way to imagine all those things is very hard.
your right be more simple minded should help.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 24 2010,19:04)

Hi Dennison!  You say that Christ did not have a beginning?  Then do you believe in a Trinity?  That is what WJ believes that Christ did not have a beginning.  However there are two Scripture , that tell us, that I  know of that, Christ was created by God our Heavenly Father.   Col. 1:15 and rev. 3:14 in Rev. 3:14 …”These things says, The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God.” Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…. God is a Creator and He creates….. Jesus is the literal Son of God, He came forth from God.  Not out of the dust of the earth like us Humans….How God produced Jesus , I don't think is known….How does God do anything.?… I also believe that God by His Holy Spirit keeps all alive….. What a miracle that happens every year.  The Tree's , the Flowers etc.  and we just don't even think of it….every year He creates anew….Peace Irene

Hi Irene,
I dont believe in a Trinity,
or better yet let me put it this way, im not limited to the Trinity.

Irene, if you saw the beginning of this thread,
I already proved that Co. 1:15 depends on 1:18- this is not proof.

and Rev 3:14- stands alone without any context, and it suggests also of the idea of preeminence.

Are you going to make Doctrine and Ideas based on One scripture alone?

Jesus Created the World as we know it- This is fact.
Actually we DID not always have the Holy Spirit with us, this is also not scriptural.
The Bible says that Jesus was the Life and what sustains all general life.

Ecclesastics- says that there is nothing new that was made nor that man can create.

Anyways Irene, we cannot make up ideas nor doctrines based solely on one scripture.  Espeacialy Rev 3:14 because its without any context, its simply a phrase.  
God never says how he fashioned the existance of Jesus, but in psalms and in Job and in many places in the bible, it talks about how God created the world as we know it.

How come it never talks about JEsus being created, and in fact Jesus was NEVER mentioned as creator until the NT.
In the WHOLE OT Jesus was never mentioned as taking part in creation.

Yet Paul and John say otherwise.

Irene to believe Jesus was created needs proof beyond these two that are presented.  
IF God produced Jesus, what is he than, a human, a creature, a natural element? what is the Son of God? what is that exactly?

Much Love

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 23 2010,04:46)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,13:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,17:35) Lu, was  the word  a person? from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember. I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hi SF, We all know at Jesus' birth, he did in FACT appear! I see improvement here in your Post! (Click Here) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org The Word was made flesh Ed J, eventually yes he did appear, it doesnt say if he was FLESH before. it doenst say he ever appeared prior to his birth, Point is he created, there is nothing left to say.

Hi SF,

If you agree with me here, then why are you trying to override what Hebrews 11:3 says?

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 25 2010,01:30)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 23 2010,04:46) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,13:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 22 2010,17:35) Lu, was  the word  a person? from what i learned about what the “word” is that its something in action. a action verb. i dont remember. I cant imagine that the “word” was a physical person who created the universe. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hi SF, We all know at Jesus' birth, he did in FACT appear! I see improvement here in your Post! (Click Here) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org The Word was made flesh Ed J, eventually yes he did appear, it doesnt say if he was FLESH before. it doenst say he ever appeared prior to his birth, Point is he created, there is nothing left to say. Hi SF, If you agree with me here, then why are you trying to override what Hebrews 11:3 says? Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,
How am i overriding anything that Hebrews 11:3 says?

here is the context
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now what are you trying to say? what is your POINT?
I think im misunderstanding what ur trying to do say?

Hebrews 1:8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

So what is your point Ed J that Jesus did not create, or that he was created. Again we also have John and Collossians and Philipians and Revelations, Hebrews that say otherwise.
not to mention some psalms and proverbs.

so again, what are you trying to say Ed?

[chosenone]

Rev.3:14… “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:

Copied from The “Concordant Version”, which I concider the most accurate. You may disagree with me.

Jerry.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 25 2010,06:34)

Rev.3:14…   “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: Copied from The “Concordant Version”, which I concider the most accurate.  You may disagree with me. Jerry.

I do disagree =)

[JustAskin]

SF,

Creation reference, or lack of, is quite simple…

in the OT God talked directly to man — through the Prophets. In this times mankind was in infancy, still drinking milk. Had God said,”I have a servant through whom all you see were made”, they would have wanted to know who this was and then Worshipped him.

God wanted them to focus on Him. They were not ready for “the great Secret of Christ” but God dropped heavy hints about him.

There is a simple analogy to explain creation: A man wants to build a house. Who builds the house – HE Did!

Did HE build the house – NO, he didn't – who then? a Builder of course.

So why did the man say HE built the house if it was the builder who built it for him?

Hey, come one – it's easy: It's HIS house – He “had it built” – “Hey look at the house I built – isn't it wonderful?” says the man to his friends.

But at another place the builder says “See that house? I built that for that man!”

But did the builder build the house all by himself – No! so why say “I built that house”?

What about the roofers, the tilers, the sparkies, the chippies, the brickies, the decorators, the plumbers, the hundreds of others (The Angels) – hey, didn't they have an input – but yet they aren't mentioned at all.

So, who build the house – Contextually: God, the owner and Jesus the inheritor.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2010,06:40)

Thanks Dennison, The word in 1 John 1 is called the word of life so maybe that has something to do with the 'action' idea.  If you think about it, God always existed and then there had to be a first thing to exist in a living way after Him.  So, that would be the 'word of life' and revealed to us as the Son of God. The Son is an extension of that eternal life as I understand things. So, I think that the Son was begotten when that eternal life within the Father was extended to an existence apart from the Father to be with the Father. I hear you about this being hard to wrap your mind around but maybe we are just trying to make it hard.  I think that it is as simple as God continuing Himself through another person, a Son.

hi Kathy

so you believe that God as a restrain factor,he ad the word inside him all along and could not do anything but get him out in doe time ?

and it had to be the word.

does men reflect that idea? so in reality i was in my father (flesh)all the time since he was born?
if so that's mean man only makes the same spermatozoide over and over ? so that no matter what it will be always the same kid coming to be born??I did not know that.

i believe wen God says ;I am alone, God no one else is equal to me'

we either believe that or we do not,if we do believe it no more argument all is good;if we do not believe it now it takes explanation upon explanation until you got lost in explanation and still at the end no were;or we have to declare God a liar.

and this would make us the biggest liars.

so why just not listen to the word of God as an humble minded and truthful person ,with faith and good works……

there is very little fruit production in words discussion.
but to some this is there kick in live and so disturb the true beleivers and take them out of focus for a while.

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 25 2010,06:11)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 24 2010,19:04) Hi Dennison!  You say that Christ did not have a beginning?  Then do you believe in a Trinity?  That is what WJ believes that Christ did not have a beginning.  However there are two Scripture , that tell us, that I  know of that, Christ was created by God our Heavenly Father.   Col. 1:15 and rev. 3:14 in Rev. 3:14 …”These things says, The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God.” Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…. God is a Creator and He creates….. Jesus is the literal Son of God, He came forth from God.  Not out of the dust of the earth like us Humans….How God produced Jesus , I don't think is known….How does God do anything.?… I also believe that God by His Holy Spirit keeps all alive….. What a miracle that happens every year.  The Tree's , the Flowers etc.  and we just don't even think of it….every year He creates anew….Peace Irene Hi Irene, I dont believe in a Trinity, or better yet let me put it this way, im not limited to the Trinity. Irene, if you saw the beginning of this thread, I already proved that Co. 1:15 depends on 1:18- this is not proof. and Rev 3:14- stands alone without any context, and it suggests also of the idea of preeminence. Are you going to make Doctrine and Ideas based on One scripture alone? Jesus Created the World as we know it- This is fact. Actually we DID not always have the Holy Spirit with us, this is also not scriptural. The Bible says that Jesus was the Life and what sustains all general life. Ecclesastics- says that there is nothing new that was made nor that man can create. Anyways Irene, we cannot make up ideas nor doctrines based solely on one scripture.  Espeacialy Rev 3:14 because its without any context, its simply a phrase.   God never says how he fashioned the existance of Jesus, but in psalms and in Job and in many places in the bible, it talks about how God created the world as we know it. How come it never talks about JEsus being created, and in fact Jesus was NEVER mentioned as creator until the NT. In the WHOLE OT Jesus was never mentioned as taking part in creation. Yet Paul and John say otherwise. Irene to believe Jesus was created needs proof beyond these two that are presented.   IF God produced Jesus, what is he than, a human, a creature, a natural element? what is the Son of God? what is that exactly? Much Love

Col. 1:15 has nothing to do with verse 18. Verse 18 is that Jesus had preeminence meaning that He was first in all. He was the firstborn of all creation and first born of the dead.
You are denying Scriptures, just like someone else is doing….. That is not good, my friend……Rev, 3:14 does not stand alone since we have also Col. 1:15
I will say what chosenone is saying I know you will disagree…. but that is just fine, you are not the only one…..
You have not proven anything, you have ignored Scriptures….Jesus was mentioned in the Old Test, you are wrong…..the Scriptures are in Phil. 2:5 tread, look them up….There are other Scriptures that prove that Jesus was in Heaven with Jehovah God. John 6:38 and John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13-16….. You want to ignore all of those Scriptures? Not I…..So to you two Scriptures are not enough to prove things???? It is for I……You even have to ask what Jesus was before He became a Human?? Gene all over again….. Oh well cant win them all…………Even Jesus Himself tells us that He had a glory before the world was….John 17:5….. You know to say what is that about our Savior, come on, have a little respect for our Savior…. That really upsets me to talk like that…..Shame on you….Peace Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 25 2010,07:24)

SF, Creation reference, or lack of, is quite simple… in the OT God talked directly to man — through the Prophets. In this times mankind was in infancy, still drinking milk. Had God said,”I have a servant through whom all you see were made”, they would have wanted to know who this was and then Worshipped him. God wanted them to focus on Him. They were not ready for “the great Secret of Christ” but God dropped heavy hints about him. There is a simple analogy to explain creation:  A man wants to build a house. Who builds the house – HE Did! Did HE build the house – NO, he didn't – who then? a Builder of course. So why did the man say HE built the house if it was the builder who built it for him? Hey, come one – it's easy: It's HIS house – He “had it built” – “Hey look at the house I built – isn't it wonderful?” says the man to his friends. But at another place the builder says “See that house? I built that for that man!” But did the builder build the house all by himself – No! so why say “I built that house”? What about the roofers, the tilers, the sparkies, the chippies, the brickies, the decorators, the plumbers, the hundreds of others (The Angels) – hey, didn't they have an input – but yet they aren't mentioned at all. So, who build the house – Contextually: God, the owner and Jesus the inheritor.

And Who made the Builder?
Wasnt the builder Hired and not created?

[JustAskin]

SF,
you not thinking Spiritual… Concerning God and Christ : ALWAYS think in Spiritual.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 25 2010,07:39)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 25 2010,06:11) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 24 2010,19:04) Hi Dennison!  You say that Christ did not have a beginning?  Then do you believe in a Trinity?  That is what WJ believes that Christ did not have a beginning.  However there are two Scripture , that tell us, that I  know of that, Christ was created by God our Heavenly Father.   Col. 1:15 and rev. 3:14 in Rev. 3:14 …”These things says, The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God.” Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…. God is a Creator and He creates….. Jesus is the literal Son of God, He came forth from God.  Not out of the dust of the earth like us Humans….How God produced Jesus , I don't think is known….How does God do anything.?… I also believe that God by His Holy Spirit keeps all alive….. What a miracle that happens every year.  The Tree's , the Flowers etc.  and we just don't even think of it….every year He creates anew….Peace Irene Hi Irene, I dont believe in a Trinity, or better yet let me put it this way, im not limited to the Trinity. Irene, if you saw the beginning of this thread, I already proved that Co. 1:15 depends on 1:18- this is not proof. and Rev 3:14- stands alone without any context, and it suggests also of the idea of preeminence. Are you going to make Doctrine and Ideas based on One scripture alone? Jesus Created the World as we know it- This is fact. Actually we DID not always have the Holy Spirit with us, this is also not scriptural. The Bible says that Jesus was the Life and what sustains all general life. Ecclesastics- says that there is nothing new that was made nor that man can create. Anyways Irene, we cannot make up ideas nor doctrines based solely on one scripture.  Espeacialy Rev 3:14 because its without any context, its simply a phrase.   God never says how he fashioned the existance of Jesus, but in psalms and in Job and in many places in the bible, it talks about how God created the world as we know it. How come it never talks about JEsus being created, and in fact Jesus was NEVER mentioned as creator until the NT. In the WHOLE OT Jesus was never mentioned as taking part in creation. Yet Paul and John say otherwise. Irene to believe Jesus was created needs proof beyond these two that are presented.   IF God produced Jesus, what is he than, a human, a creature, a natural element? what is the Son of God? what is that exactly? Much Love Col. 1:15 has nothing to do with verse 18. Verse 18 is that Jesus had preeminence meaning that He was first in all.  He was the firstborn of all creation and first born of the dead.   You are denying Scriptures, just like someone else is doing….. That is not good, my friend……Rev, 3:14 does not stand alone since we have also Col. 1:15 I will say what chosenone is saying I know you will disagree…. but that is just fine, you are not the only one….. You have not proven anything, you have ignored Scriptures….Jesus was mentioned in the Old Test, you are wrong…..the Scriptures are in Phil. 2:5 tread, look them up….There are other Scriptures that prove that Jesus was in Heaven with Jehovah God.  John 6:38 and John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13-16….. You want to ignore all of those Scriptures?  Not I…..So to you two Scriptures are not enough to prove things???? It is for I……You even have to ask what Jesus was before He became a Human?? Gene all over again….. Oh well cant win them all…………Even Jesus Himself tells us that He had a glory before the world was….John 17:5….. You know to say what is that about our Savior, come on, have a little respect for our Savior…. That really upsets me to talk like that…..Shame on you….Peace Irene

Irene,
How can you say that 1:18 has nothign to do with 15?

i already gave my analysis.
14-15 is the introduction of the idea of Who Jesus was,
16-17- is what he Did,
18-19- the conclusion so he can be FIRST in all things and because it pleased the father, it has EVERYTHING to do with it.
lol im not denying scripture YOUR the one who just said taht, veres 15-18 which are written in the same page, aboud 3 verses away are not contextual. OF Course they are!

Its OBVIOUS,
Again you didnt answer my analysis so you ignored it.

Rev 3:14
It does stand alone, and even wit Col 1:15 its only TWO verses VS the WHOLE bible.
I know Jesus is mentioned in the OT but not as Creator genuis.
I never said that Jesus was not with God in Heaven, when was he ever seperated?

LOL your totally lost Irene, your too emotional… You didnt even read what i wrote.  I used all those scriptures about John and Rev as proof to prove MY point….. My goodness.

If JESUS is a seperate being from God, what is he?
this is a excellent Question and i have every right to ask,
And where does it say in the bible what he was?

Shame on you for lying and being without any discernment,

Shame that you are so blind that you couldnt even see what i was talking about.  
Shame that you cant understand what i was saying,

Shame that you cant understand that I DO BELIEVE Jesus existed, BUT HE WAS NOT CREATED,

You need to learn respect for your brothers before you attack them,
Learn to understand before you speak,
do what you preach, didnt you once say if you had nothing nice to say, not to say it?
Shame on you,
Shame Shame Shame SHame Shame Irene,

Im really upset because you cant see what i meant nor do you care to understand.

( To clarify I KNOW THAT CHRIST EXISTED WITH THE FATHER AND HAD A “FORMER” GLORY, Just because Irene has illusive thoughts i believe in something else is becasue she decieved herself instead of reading what i posted correctly.)

You have some Nerve,
Im going to bold everything i said in my last post so you can feel dumb.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 25 2010,08:15)

SF, you not thinking Spiritual… Concerning God and Christ : ALWAYS think in Spiritual.

Ja,
Are you really that Sure?
Isnt in your analogy not spiritual?

Lets speak Spiritual than beloved brother

[JustAskin]

SF,

You are inconsistent in your utterings – you best deal with the like of Mike…

You cannot see spiritually else you would not be contending with me – you would be agreeing.

[JustAskin]

There was nothing in what i wrote contending the lineage of the Builder nor the owner – perhaps you got me mixed up with someone else – for which error you wish to be “Simply Forgiven”. Perhaps you deliberately create errors to gain the need to be “Simply forgiven”

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2010,21:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2010,06:40) Thanks Dennison, The word in 1 John 1 is called the word of life so maybe that has something to do with the 'action' idea.  If you think about it, God always existed and then there had to be a first thing to exist in a living way after Him.  So, that would be the 'word of life' and revealed to us as the Son of God. The Son is an extension of that eternal life as I understand things. So, I think that the Son was begotten when that eternal life within the Father was extended to an existence apart from the Father to be with the Father. I hear you about this being hard to wrap your mind around but maybe we are just trying to make it hard.  I think that it is as simple as God continuing Himself through another person, a Son. hi Kathy so you believe that God as a restrain factor,he ad the word inside him all along and could not do anything but get him out in doe time ? and it had to be the word. does men reflect that idea? so in reality i was in my father (flesh)all the time since he was born? if so that's mean man only makes the same spermatozoide over and over ? so that no matter what it will be always the same kid coming to be born??I did not know that. i believe wen God says ;I am alone, God no one else is equal to me' we either believe that or we do not,if we do believe it no more argument all is good;if we do not believe it now it takes explanation upon explanation until you got lost in explanation and still at the end no were;or we have to declare God a liar. and this would make us the biggest liars. so why just not listen to the word of God as an humble minded and truthful person ,with faith and good works…… there is very little fruit production in words discussion. but to some this is there kick in live and so disturb the true beleivers and take them out of focus for a while. Pierre

No Pierre,
You do not grasp what I said. Man is different.

[Author]

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