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SF:
Quote wE wEre SuPose to GeT inTo oMniPreseNCE,
EXACTLY D! What do the scriptures say about that? Your “quasi-metaphysical” mind wants to say God is “omnipresent”, yet I've showed you scriptures that say angels go throughout the earth gathering info to deliver to him. We have Him asking Satan where he has been in the Book of Job – why didn't He know where Satan had been? We have Jesus saying He is in heaven……NOT EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. So a “debate” on the “omnipresence” of God can only amount to our own opinions IMO.SF:
Quote For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days? or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
I saw where WJ complimented you on this scripture and point. I don't know why……it's yet ANOTHER instance of the word “day” being used metaphorically……just like in Psalm 2:7
SF:
Quote umm basically what im saying is that the scripture should be intepreted as a person who came from eternity.
Ah……but does any scripture speak of God having an “origin” or a “beginning”? Micah 5:2 says Jesus had a “beginning” – even if it was from “days of eternity”.Later D-linquent,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 04 2010,08:14) Mike,
I have posted my opinion on 'pro'created. That is why I asked for the definition.I asked a question and you trying to dodge. I will bite and hang on.
Why are you avoidung an answer, Mike.
What are you talking about? I just posted the definition of “procreate” for the third time in the “Does God Procreate?” thread.It means “caused to exist”……that's it. It means “to bring into being”, the same definition given for “create”.
What is this question I have supposedly avoided?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2010,22:45) Kathi: Quote If I built a house THROUGH a particular contractor then we both get credit for building the house. I may have drawn up the design of the floor plan, forked out the money, chosen all the finishes, hired the contractor BUT the contractor certainly GETS CREDIT for the actual building of the house. Why do you not want to give the Son ANY credit?
Ah…….but those bolded words above carry the answer to our disagreement Kathi. I wish to give Jesus EXACTLY the amount of credit the scriptures say is due him. You are the one who wants to take it upon herself and just “think God will be okay with it” if you bestow upon the Son MORE credit than is due him – to the point you are asking our God to share His glory with another.Kathi:
Quote You mean biased translation. The NWT inserts 'other' twice which you won't find in the Greek. The words 'by' or 'through' still give the Son credit with the Father for creation.
John 1:3 NWT
3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.You can check with NETNotes and see that “came into existence” is what the actual Greek says here. But don't you and I both know that it really means all things BESIDES HIMSELF came into existence through him? Doesn't it really mean, “all OTHER things……”?
Kathi:
Quote There is no praying in Jesus name at the end of this.
29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.I asked:
Quote Can you show me anywhere in scripture where a “firstborn” of any particular group is NOT a part OF that group? Hint: There are none. You answered:
Quote I can show you where the word for 'creation' is not only applied to the created but also is used for the creation act.
So your answer to MY question is “No”, right? And what are you saying about the word “creation”? Is Jehovah “the act of creation”? Or did Jehovah PERFORM the “act of creation”?Kathi:
Quote I can show you where the word for 'creation' is not only applied to the created but also is used for the creation act.
Again, Jehovah is neither “created” nor “the ACT of creation”.Kathi:
Quote if the verse said 'the creator of all creation' you wouldn't have so much trouble seeing this.
Let's take your thoughts from a later post I read and run with them for a minute, okay? You asserted that I “finally” realized that angels are the “first created beings”, as I remember. So instead of “creator of all creation”, let's keep it “firstborn of all creation”, but apply it to the angels……the beings you think were the first created.If it said, “Gabriel is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION”, then would you be bending over backwards to make “prototokos pasa ktisis” mean something other than what it says? Would you be “guessing” it must mean that Gabriel is “preeminent over all creation”, and then pushing that “guess” down our throats as if it were scriptural truth? If not, then why would you behave that way when it is about Jesus?
Kathi:
Quote The creator is part of creation, right?
Absolutely not. The Creator PERFORMED the act of creation…..He is NOT a part of that creation He brought into existence. You are playing with words and trying to twist the meaning of the scriptures to fit into your own self-originated belief.Kathi, let's just cut to the chase here.
Nehemiah 9:6 NIV
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.Doesn't this sum up what we disagree about Kathi? Jehovah ALONE made the heavens and earth and everything in them. And the “multitudes/hosts/army” of heaven WORSHIPS Jehovah. Jesus is a part of the “hosts” of heaven. But, just to make sure what we do is aligned with scripture……
NASB Matt 4:10
Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
Only one question here Kathi: Who does the Son of God himself say we should worship ONLY?Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD (YHVH) says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD (YHVH), and there is no other.Who is our “Creator” Kathi? Once again…..
Isaiah 44:24 NIV
“This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD (YHVH), who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,This makes it pretty clear that God created “alone” and “by himself”, but does Jesus imply that he is a “co-creator”?
Matthew 19:4 NIV
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
Here we see Jesus specifically referring to his God as “the Creator”.Once again, we're at the same spot Kathi. You can twist “firstborn” and “creation” all you want, but there are CLEAR AND CONCISE scriptures that say God ALONE is our Creator and God ALONE is to be worshipped. You must weigh those CLEAR AND CONCISE scriptures against your own “wishes” and “understandings”. One more for the road:
Revelation 10:6 NIV
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, w
ho created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!That first bolded word above is not “THEM” Kathi……but “HIM” – as in ONE. And it says “Him”, who created the heavens……..AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. Isn't Jesus IN the heavens Kathi? Does is say that “HIM” created all that is in the heavens……EXCEPT JESUS?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,I have concluded that the Spirit must enlighten the scriptures for us because we are going nowhere.
Until then we should probably agree to disagree.
It has gotten to that point, don't you think? Unless some new enlightenment comes, I am going to just let this rest on Jesus' shoulders. The weather is just too nice right now to be stuck going round an round with this.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,13:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2010,23:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,04:27) For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days?
or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
Habakkuk 1:12
Isaiah 43:13,
Hebrew 7: 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hi ShimmerGood point.
WJ
lol hi WJ,
thx but im,not shimmer but thx anyways =)
Oops Sorry! Must have been tired.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 04 2010,09:19) SF: Quote wE wEre SuPose to GeT inTo oMniPreseNCE,
EXACTLY D! What do the scriptures say about that? Your “quasi-metaphysical” mind wants to say God is “omnipresent”, yet I've showed you scriptures that say angels go throughout the earth gathering info to deliver to him. We have Him asking Satan where he has been in the Book of Job – why didn't He know where Satan had been? We have Jesus saying He is in heaven……NOT EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. So a “debate” on the “omnipresence” of God can only amount to our own opinions IMO.SF:
Quote For example.
Godcalls Himself “the Ancient of Days” Daniel 7:9,
does this mean that God had Ancient Days? or did he just speak in the manner that man speak so that he can get his point across?
I saw where WJ complimented you on this scripture and point. I don't know why……it's yet ANOTHER instance of the word “day” being used metaphorically……just like in Psalm 2:7SF:
Quote umm basically what im saying is that the scripture should be intepreted as a person who came from eternity.
Ah……but does any scripture speak of God having an “origin” or a “beginning”? Micah 5:2 says Jesus had a “beginning” – even if it was from “days of eternity”.Later D-linquent,
mike
Ummm Mike thats a lie,Thats a straight up lie, because we never got into the subject of omnipresence, so everything you said right now is a lie, because you never mention that to me.
Any moderator is more than welcome to get into our debate and see that i mention the subject but it was never debated.
so when you say that “you have shown me” thats a lie.
unless you can prove otherwise.its surely your opinion and not scriptural fact.
actually it doesnt say orgin or beginnning it says coming from! or coming forth, or in otherwise, sanctfied and sent!
Quote Micah 5:2 says Jesus had a “beginning” – even if it was from “days of eternity”.
LOl thats such a dumb remark even for you.
So Jesus had a beginning when time didnt exist? really?
that makes no sense mike, this is also a faulty tactic of yours to FORCE the truth upon people, Im sorrry to say brother but you are mistaken.You say the days of eternity, when eternity can not be comprehended by Man, its beyond time, and its controlled by God.
Mike just because you say its “proof” or “true” doesnt make it so. You have no authority nor do you have the last word in anything that you state.
You somehow think that just because you state the circumstance of your ideal, that makes it true.
What makes things true is the Word of God and backed up by the holy Spirit.And you know very well what you just said makes NO sense.
Later Decieved by your own imaginations,
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2010,16:12) Mike, I have concluded that the Spirit must enlighten the scriptures for us because we are going nowhere.
Until then we should probably agree to disagree.
It has gotten to that point, don't you think? Unless some new enlightenment comes, I am going to just let this rest on Jesus' shoulders. The weather is just too nice right now to be stuck going round an round with this.
Hi Kathi,Fair enough! I just pray you go away from this discussion knowing two important things:
1. There are very CLEAR scriptures saying to worship ONLY Jehovah. There are no CLEAR scriptures saying it is okay to worship any other being.
2. There are very clear scriptures saying Jesus was a part of the creation by his God. There are no scriptures that specifically deny that he is a created being. Remember that when I BEGOT my son, with the help of God I CREATED a new life.
I don't have any major problem with you pointing towards the “begotten” and away from the “created”……..until you start messing with Col 1:15 and taking the trinitarian stand that it must mean “preeminent” just so it fits into YOUR doctrine.
But I will continue to pray for you to understand that there is only ONE mentioned in scripture who is worthy enough for us to pay homage to as God.
peace and love,
mikeWow Dennison! That is one of the nastiest posts I've ever received.
First, you not only called me a liar, but went on a mini-tangent about how much of a liar I am.
Do you remember me posting this scripture to you?
Zechariah 1:9-11 (Contemporary English Version)
9An angel was there to explain things to me, and I asked, “Sir, who are these riders?” “I'll tell you,” the angel answered.10Right away, the man standing among the myrtle trees said, “These are the ones the LORD has sent to find out what's happening on earth.”
11Then the riders spoke to the LORD's angel, who was standing among the myrtle trees, and they said, “We have gone everywhere and have discovered that the whole world is at peace.”
I believe I asked you why God needed these “riders” if He was omnipresent? My memory might not be what it used to be……but I am NOT a liar Dennison.
You said about Micah 5:2:
Quote LOl thats such a dumb remark even for you.
So Jesus had a beginning when time didnt exist? really?
that makes no sense mike, this is also a faulty tactic of yours to FORCE the truth upon people, Im sorrry to say brother but you are mistaken.You say the days of eternity, when eternity can not be comprehended by Man, its beyond time, and its controlled by God.
Mike just because you say its “proof” or “true” doesnt make it so. You have no authority nor do you have the last word in anything that you state.
You somehow think that just because you state the circumstance of your ideal, that makes it true.
What makes things true is the Word of God and backed up by the holy Spirit.And you know very well what you just said makes NO sense.
Later Decieved by your own imaginations,
Again, WOW! This is how the LXX renders the last 4 words of Micah 5:2,
arche ek hemera aion
And here's what those Greek words mean:
arche 1) beginning, origin
ek 1) out of, from, by, away from
hemera 1) the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
aion 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
This isn't something I just made up Dennison. The LXX says that Jesus' BEGINNING was FROM THE DAY of ETERNITY.
And the LXX was translating the original Hebrew which says that Jesus' ORIGIN was from ANCIENT DAYS of ANTIQUITY.
Comments? Perhaps an apology?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 04 2010,20:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2010,16:12) Mike, I have concluded that the Spirit must enlighten the scriptures for us because we are going nowhere.
Until then we should probably agree to disagree.
It has gotten to that point, don't you think? Unless some new enlightenment comes, I am going to just let this rest on Jesus' shoulders. The weather is just too nice right now to be stuck going round an round with this.
Hi Kathi,Fair enough! I just pray you go away from this discussion knowing two important things:
1. There are very CLEAR scriptures saying to worship ONLY Jehovah. There are no CLEAR scriptures saying it is okay to worship any other being.
2. There are very clear scriptures saying Jesus was a part of the creation by his God. There are no scriptures that specifically deny that he is a created being. Remember that when I BEGOT my son, with the help of God I CREATED a new life.
I don't have any major problem with you pointing towards the “begotten” and away from the “created”……..until you start messing with Col 1:15 and taking the trinitarian stand that it must mean “preeminent” just so it fits into YOUR doctrine.
But I will continue to pray for you to understand that there is only ONE mentioned in scripture who is worthy enough for us to pay homage to as God.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Thank you for the discussion so far…it has hurt my brain trying to help you out of the tunnel Part of me wants to address your points here and try to straighten you out again but, as I said it will only lead to more of the same unless the Spirit is allowed to enlighten us. Till then, it is good to pray for each other to find the truth in this and to pursue love.God bless ya, Mike!
Quote Wow Dennison! That is one of the nastiest posts I've ever received. First, you not only called me a liar, but went on a mini-tangent about how much of a liar I am.
Do you remember me posting this scripture to you?
Zechariah 1:9-11 (Contemporary English Version)
9An angel was there to explain things to me, and I asked, “Sir, who are these riders?” “I'll tell you,” the angel answered.10Right away, the man standing among the myrtle trees said, “These are the ones the LORD has sent to find out what's happening on earth.”
11Then the riders spoke to the LORD's angel, who was standing among the myrtle trees, and they said, “We have gone everywhere and have discovered that the whole world is at peace.”
I believe I asked you why God needed these “riders” if He was omnipresent? My memory might not be what it used to be……but I am NOT a liar Dennison.
You said about Micah 5:2:
Dude Here is what you said earlier.Quote
1.EXACTLY D! What do the scriptures say about that? Your “quasi-metaphysical” mind wants to say God is “omnipresent”,
2.yet I've showed you scriptures that say angels go throughout the earth gathering info to deliver to him.
3.We have Him asking Satan where he has been in the Book of Job –
4.why didn't He know where Satan had been?
5.We have Jesus saying He is in heaven……
6.NOT EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. So a “debate” on the “omnipresence” of God can only amount to our own opinions IMO.
You made about a good 5 points about a subject that you and I never discussed.
So your either lying or just mistaken or confused.
Dont take it personally, but im not going to let you tell me we discussed something that we never did debate about, unless this happen in the fantasy world of Mike, or is this more of your amnesia?
I hurt your feelings Sorry! whoops!
But if you think im wrong, and that we did discuss this, show me the “Thread” and the “page #” because i even reviewd the debate threads and you never posted that scripture there.
So we didnt talk about this in our Debate Threads.Here let me remind you the TWO times we MENTIONED about Omnipresence was in this Thread
1. Matt-Authentic or not
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=450
And its the fourth post down where i mention it, and every other page we mention it again along side with WJ.
2. Right hand of God
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=10
And here we starte talking about Psalms 139 and This is where we find this scripture you mentiond but it it was never discussed and your 5 points you mentioned was never discussed nor proven here as well.Here is one of the last things you said in this subject
You Said:Quote What do you think about these scriptures, Dennison? Like I said, this is new to me. I haven't even looked into it.
So Again, not that im trying to CALL YOU a liar, which i didnt, i just think your mistaken or just confusing your self which made you fall in a lie.
AGain Sorry if I offended you!Let me restate that You made 5 Points that we never discussed about.
The scripture/point you posted was in reference to the Right Hand of God page where we didnt get into omnipresence but what i thought about the scriptures, and you said you didnt have much “study” in this area, so i never bothered to go into that with you.and your last statement, No you neved did ask me “why”, now that i have reviewed the “lost thread” i see that you asked me my thoughts about the scripture, it was in the days of “Peace” “harmony” and “brotherly love”
So Yes you posted the scripture, but No we never discussed it, as like we never had a debate focused on omnipresence whats so ever.So Again if you feel Offended, My BAD homeboy! dont get so sensitive, dont Cry!
Micah 5:2
Man, Ouch,
Ok For that one I am going to sincerely apologize, because that was pretty harsh of me.
Man i dont even remember writing that.
But Ya all the extra insults was uncalled for, Man, i felt what you Felt when i read it.
Whats was up with Me that day?
Was that Yesturday? Gosh…I remember correcting you about the omnipresent thing, but i dont even remember being so harsh while writing the Micah comment.For real, for real, Im sorry I was so direct and Cruel.
I hope you can accept my Apology, that was pretty messed up and rude and villanness of me
Back to Micah 5:2
About the LXX
The greek word you mention suggests the interpretation of Orgins.
But look at the hebrew.
mowtsa'ah 1) origin, place of going out from 1a) origin 1b) places of going out to or from 1b1) privy
Again, like I said before Mike to suggest that there is a beginning before the beginnning or within eternity would not make any sense.
Its just a way of God expressing his point that its from “long ago” before “time”
In other words he is From Eternity, not that he had a beginning nor does it say that he was “created”Get what im saying?
Ancient Days also refers to this same since of Eternity, always existing.
God also says in Isaiah he is the First and the Last, and you also “believe” that The Alpha and the Omega refers to God being the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Now none of this of course suggest that God actually had a beginning because he is the First and the Beginning. God as expressed himself many times in this manner that he comes from Eternity, which is beyond Beginning and End.So again, IF the LxX did say orgin, would it matter? does it go with the context? it doesnt say that Jesus was created, and Jesus can not have mulitple orgins.
Lets re-word it,
And he came from old days,
he orginated from the Eternal days
his beginning is from God days
Here is the Points, IF we Agree that the last word is in reference to Eternity, that this is not a literal day, than the context disagrees with the literal definition of the word “Orgin”.
But it would be a nice way to add to the emphasis of Eternity.If you want to believe that Jesus had a beginning before the beginning, than this is beyond scripture, and not biblical.
So if you want to Believe that Jesus was Created.
Here is your Case if Jesus was created.
1. It had to be before the Heavens and the Earth were created.
2. It had to be in the First day.
3. it had to have happend definatly before Second day
4. It had to have had happen when Time started.
Again, to suggest that Jesus had a beginning, would have to meet these requirements.Now your point (i think) is that he was created within eternitiy, which would be impossible because there is no “days” in Eternity, and No “orgin” in
Eternity and no “Beginning” in Eternity.
So your claim is that Micah 5:2 whos orgins are from Anceint days,
And who else is called Ancient of days?
But notice its easier to beleive that Eternity Comes from God, that the Orgin comes from God, and the Beginning comes from God.
Anyways, This verse doesnt prove that Jesus was created. IT cant.Anyways i hope we are cool now
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 04 2010,09:04) SF: Quote The Symbol “~~~” or in your cave man language “squiggly lines” Means the Wind,
It Represents the Wind, it is Defined as the Wind, it is the Wind.
When we think about Wind, we see the symbol.
When we talk draw or even write about the Wind we use the Symbol.
But is it the actual “wind” itself…..or a symbol representing the actual wind itself?SF:
Quote God also calls him God in hebrews as we discussed.
Actually Mike, i thought this would spark your intrest, i found this one verse thats i have not seen pop up in Heaven.net yet.
What? The verse in Hebrews 1 that says, “because God, YOUR God has set you above your companions”? So even as Jesus is referred to as “god”, which only means “mighty one”, it is made abundantly clear that it is his own God who set him in a high place.SF:
Quote Oh Check it out i found another verse that talks about knowing Jesus.
1 John 5:20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Yes, and like I keep saying in our debate, the ultimate goal here is to know God, not Jesus. We don't want to make it only as far as the mediator between us and God…….we want to make it all the way to God Himself Dennison. This scripture affirms that. It says the Son of God has given us an understanding that we may know GOD, and be in GOD……even in His Son. God's Son is the second greatest being in existence. But God sent His Son in order for us to be able to someday dwell face to face with HIM, not just His Son.It's like the Press Secretary has gone to great lengths to set up an audience with the President Himself…….but you only want to get as far as the Press Secretary. (Not to mention, you think the Press Secretary, who speaks the President's words, actually IS the President who gave him those words to speak in his behalf.)
peace and love,
mikeQuote But is it the actual “wind” itself…..or a symbol representing the actual wind itself?
Unlike the symbol, Jesus was a living Image.
So if the Symbol was living thing, it would hold the same atributes.
Unless you can name me a better example of a living image of something living invisibly?
like the Body and Your Personality?Quote What? The verse in Hebrews 1 that says, “because God, YOUR God has set you above your companions”? So even as Jesus is referred to as “god”, which only means “mighty one”, it is made abundantly clear that it is his own God who set him in a high place.
The Verse we have debated about many times, doesnt suggest “mighty ones” Its God calling another God.
But it also suggest that Christ created by the way,
Hey you do believe that Christ created right?Quote Yes, and like I keep saying in our debate, the ultimate goal here is to know God, not Jesus. We don't want to make it only as far as the mediator between us and God…….we want to make it all the way to God Himself Dennison. This scripture affirms that. It says the Son of God has given us an understanding that we may know GOD, and be in GOD……even in His Son. God's Son is the second greatest being in existence. But God sent His Son in order for us to be able to someday dwell face to face with HIM, not just His Son
Again mike it didnt DWELL on only on the Son point, But also that To get to the Father, we MUST know the Son, not one without the other.
So we must have the Son, and when getting the Son you get the Father,
I mean there is no way that you Know the Son without the Father.
People can cliam they know the Father and deny the Son, but of course this is false relationship.
To have a relationship with the Father, we must know the Son. Togethor in this “echad” this is eternal lifeQuote It's like the Press Secretary has gone to great lengths to set up an audience with the President Himself…….but you only want to get as far as the Press Secretary. (Not to mention, you think the Press Secretary, who speaks the President's words, actually IS the President who gave him those words to speak in his behalf.)
Actually i dont see it that way at all.
You see the Father is Unknown, cannot be Known, its not within our capacity to know him, so to Know Jesus, is to know whats known about the God almighty.IS this gettings off topic?
SF:
Quote and your last statement, No you neved did ask me “why”, now that i have reviewed the “lost thread” i see that you asked me my thoughts about the scripture, it was in the days of “Peace” “harmony” and “brotherly love”
So Yes you posted the scripture, but No we never discussed it, as like we never had a debate focused on omnipresence whats so ever.
So let's get this straight young man, because I spend way too much of my precious time arguing with you over YOUR misunderstandings. And as you like to point out……..I'm already old – I might not have that much time left.I said “I believe I asked you why God needed these 'riders' if He was omnipresent”. As it turns out, you found the discussion and I apparently didn't say the word “why”, but I did “ask you your thoughts about the scripture”.
So far, no “lie” on my part, right? Now, go back to my original post and see which one of the “five points” I ever said we discussed before. None of them, right? In fact, I said “yet I've showed you scriptures that say angels go throughout the earth gathering info to deliver to him”.
Do you see that, Spaz? I said I showed you scriptures about the “riders” – and as it turns out, it was a truthful statement, right? So still no “lie” on my part, right?
I just added the rest of the “five points” at that time. And I never implied that we had discussed those points – or any other point for that matter. I only said I showed you about the “riders”. THEN, to top it all off, I said “So a 'debate' on the 'omnipresence' of God can only amount to our own opinions IMO.” Doesn't that statement in itself imply that we have never “debated” it?
I will accept your apology on the “days of eternity” issue as enough to cover both of them.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2010,15:56) Mike,
Thank you for the discussion so far…it has hurt my brain trying to help you out of the tunnel Part of me wants to address your points here and try to straighten you out again but, as I said it will only lead to more of the same unless the Spirit is allowed to enlighten us. Till then, it is good to pray for each other to find the truth in this and to pursue love.God bless ya, Mike!
Hi Kathi,I do enjoy discussing scripture with you. I had only hoped that when faced with scriptures that give a DIRECT command from your God, you would have agreed to follow them instead of your “woman's intuition”.
It's not too late………yet.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 05 2010,18:16) Back to Micah 5:2 About the LXX
The greek word you mention suggests the interpretation of Orgins.
But look at the hebrew.
mowtsa'ah 1) origin, place of going out from 1a) origin 1b) places of going out to or from 1b1) privy
Again, like I said before Mike to suggest that there is a beginning before the beginnning or within eternity would not make any sense.
Hi D,“In the beginning”, God created the heavens and the earth, right? Yet God says in the Book of Job that the angels shouted for joy when He made the earth. So the angels apparently had a different “beginning” than the earth, right?
In fact, search the word “beginning” in the Bible. You'll find many different “beginnings”.
Do we agree so far?
mike
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Quote So again, IF the LxX did say orgin, would it matter? does it go with the context? it doesnt say that Jesus was created, and Jesus can not have mulitple orgins.
It's not an “if” D. The LXX says “beginning” plain and clearly. It says Jesus' BEGINNING was from days of eternity. And Jesus DID have “multiple origins”. One from “days of eternity”, one from Mary, and one from the dead.SF:
Quote IF we Agree that the last word is in reference to Eternity, that this is not a literal day, than the context disagrees with the literal definition of the word “Orgin”.
OR……..we could AGREE that the first word is in referrence to a BEGINNING that Jesus had, then the “days of eternity” is just a poetic way of saying that Jesus was created “a really long time ago”.SF:
Quote Here is your Case if Jesus was created.
1. It had to be before the Heavens and the Earth were created.
2. It had to be in the First day.
3. it had to have happend definatly before Second day
4. It had to have had happen when Time started.
Again, to suggest that Jesus had a beginning, would have to meet these requirements.
1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No.It has to meet requirements #1 and #3 only. The “time” requirement is not mentioned in the Bible, and is only based on mere mortal man's current comprehension of time itself. And for the Hebrews to use the word “day” (yowm) didn't mean they were speaking of a literal day as mankind understands them. The same word also meant “period of time” to the Hebrews.
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Quote Anyways, This verse doesnt prove that Jesus was created.
I agree. But it does prove Jesus had a beginning, and it was a “really long time ago”.mike
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Quote The Verse we have debated about many times, doesnt suggest “mighty ones” Its God calling another God.
Come on D. How did you come to that conclusion? When God called human being “gods”, was it “God calling another God”? I think we need a thread on the Hebrew words “Elohim” and “el”. They simply meant “a mighty one”. And there are many “mighty ones” mentioned in the Bible, but only ONE Almighty One.SF:
Quote But it also suggest that Christ created by the way,
Hey you do believe that Christ created right?
I only believe what the scriptures tell us D. Scriptures clearly have Jehovah saying He ALONE created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Is Jesus “in them”? So if Jesus isn't actually the Father, then he is one of the things “in heaven” that the Father ALONE created.But when you find a scripture that refers to our “Creators”, let me know.
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Quote So we must have the Son, and when getting the Son you get the Father,
I disagree. We must GO THROUGH the Son to reach the Father, but getting to the Father is our ultimate goal.SF:
Quote You see the Father is Unknown, cannot be Known, its not within our capacity to know him, so to Know Jesus, is to know whats known about the God almighty.
The Father isn't “unknown” D. He has made Himself known way before Jesus was flesh. Jesus came to reveal MORE about Him. You act as if the Israelites knew NOTHING of their God.And this IS off topic, except for the part about Jesus being one of the things “in heaven” that God ALONE created. Shall we discuss that point, since Micah was more to show Jesus had a beginning, but doesn't actually use the word “created”?
peace and love,
mikeSince you hit me with like 4 posts.. Im just going to answer all of them in this one.
Quote Hi D, “In the beginning”, God created the heavens and the earth, right? Yet God says in the Book of Job that the angels shouted for joy when He made the earth. So the angels apparently had a different “beginning” than the earth, right?
In fact, search the word “beginning” in the Bible. You'll find many different “beginnings”.
Do we agree so far?
mike
Actually I thought the Job38 was in reference to day 3.
Just how in Genesis one describes how God created the “earth” and the “seas” on that day. he gathered it all up.I mean beginning in general of course is different, for example I was born in 1989, i cannot say that i was born in the beginning of life.
But thats what we are discussing here, especailly the “procreation” of Christ.Quote It's not an “if” D. The LXX says “beginning” plain and clearly. It says Jesus' BEGINNING was from days of eternity. And Jesus DID have “multiple origins”. One from “days of eternity”, one from Mary, and one from the dead.
For one, i wouldnt call that multiple orgins.
Ok so if you want to say days of eternity, couldnt that also mean an everlasting beginning?
Since we cant say it was before time nor after time nor including time. because eternity is above time.
So the point is simple, it could also mean that he orginated form eterntiy, and Philipians states that he humbled himself to take the likeness of sinful flesh right? doesnt suggest that was his beginnning
and To be the First amoung the Dead also does not suggest beginning.
In other words to say his beginnings is from the days of eternity, is to say he is from beyond time.
So what does that mean?Quote OR……..we could AGREE that the first word is in referrence to a BEGINNING that Jesus had, then the “days of eternity” is just a poetic way of saying that Jesus was created “a really long time ago”.
Than the concept of eternity would be lost, since its not before time, nor after time, But above time.
Do you even know what Eternity is mike?Quote 1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No.It has to meet requirements #1 and #3 only. The “time” requirement is not mentioned in the Bible, and is only based on mere mortal man's current comprehension of time itself. And for the Hebrews to use the word “day” (yowm) didn't mean they were speaking of a literal day as mankind understands them. The same word also meant “period of time” to the Hebrews.
That makes no sense at all Mike, so your saying that Jesus was created before the First day? what is before the First day mike?
Yown is used typicaly to represent a day and also mentions the “yown of the lord” which some believe is day or a season of judgement.
That all depends on context.
To be from eternity is a concept to be beyond time mike.
Anything before time is eterntiy, anything after time is eternity, anything above the existance of time is eternity.
Of course there is a time requirement, becuase everything is subjected to Time and Space, this is just common sense.Quote I agree. But it does prove Jesus had a beginning, and it was a “really long time ago”.
Ok than there is really no point of talking about this subject anymore.
Ok when you say “Jesus had a beginning” what does that mean to you ?
are you saying that “Jesus was created a really long time ago?”
Eternity can never be subjected to time, or represent a very long time ago. TIME can be used to describe a small concept of Eternity.
We can UNDERSTAND time, but not eternity.
Just like God is the Ancient of Days, doesnt mean he is from a very long time ago, he was ALWAYS exisiting.
Or how about when Paul said to have Hope in everlasting life before time began?
titus 1:2Quote Come on D. How did you come to that conclusion? When God called human being “gods”, was it “God calling another God”? I think we need a thread on the Hebrew words “Elohim” and “el”. They simply meant “a mighty one”. And there are many “mighty ones” mentioned in the Bible, but only ONE Almighty One
We should get everyone and including WJ and KJ on that thread.Quote I only believe what the scriptures tell us D. Scriptures clearly have Jehovah saying He ALONE created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Is Jesus “in them”? So if Jesus isn't actually the Father, then he is one of the things “in heaven” that the Father ALONE created. But when you find a scripture that refers to our “Creators”, let me know.
You didnt answer the question Mike,
First i agree God alone did create, but since i believe Them to be one and the same, thats easy for me to receive.
But since you think that they are seperate beings than, you cannot DENY that Jesus created. Collossians is very specific.
Did he create YES or NO wheter through or by who cares, did he Create??Quote I disagree. We must GO THROUGH the Son to reach the Father, but getting to the Father is our ultimate goal.
You cant FOCUS on one more than the other, To have The Son is having the Father.
We have not access to the Father without communion through the Son. So whenever you want to see the Father, the Son is going to be RIGHT There.Quote The Father isn't “unknown” D. He has made Himself known way before Jesus was flesh. Jesus came to reveal MORE about Him. You act as if the Israelites knew NOTHING of their God. And this IS off topic, except for the part about Jesus being one of the things “in heaven” that God ALONE created. Shall we discuss that point, since Micah was more to show Jesus had a beginning, but doesn't actually use the word “created”?
I didnt Say they didnt know NOTHING about their God, but understand but you didnt understand what i said.The Israelites di
d NOT know God as their father but they knew Jehovah as their God or the God of abraham, Isaac, and Jacob., they knew Abraham and Moses to be the fathers of their faith, because they KNEW them and had “bonds” “relationships” with them as the leaders of their faith.God was STILL unknowable through anyone individually seeking him in the past. God is so powerful that its impossible to understand every single thing about him.
Ecclesiastes 11:4He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap.
5As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.if we cant understand how he MAKES atoms or molecules, how do you think that we can know everything about him without dieing.
point is simple, we cannot know God as the Father without Jesus.
The Focus should be what is a DAy in Eternity, which days do not exist in Eternity.
So it could mean that he ALWAYS existed, he just coming from their, to participate within Time, or within creation to redeem.SF:
Quote Since you hit me with like 4 posts.. Im just going to answer all of them in this one.
I wish you wouldn't have…..I hate long posts.SF:
Quote I mean beginning in general of course is different,
“Beginning” is just a word that you guys like to play around with in a failed attempt to prove that Jesus had no beginning. But Micah 5:2 says he does, D.SF:
Quote Ok so if you want to say days of eternity, couldnt that also mean an everlasting beginning?
Okay, say that if it helps you sleep at night. But it doesn't change the fact that Jesus DID have a beginning, while God has no beginning or end. He is from everlasting to everlasting and is never said to have an “origin” nor a “beginning”. Nor is He said to be the first of anyone else's works. And if Jesus was not always flesh, then there was a point where he BEGAN to exist as flesh. This was Jesus' fleshly “beginning”.SF:
Quote Than the concept of eternity would be lost, since its not before time, nor after time, But above time.
Do you even know what Eternity is mike?
Ah, but the original Hebrew doesn't poetically say “days of eternity”. It says “days of antiquity”, and in the other instances of the use of those words together in scripture, they refer to early world history. From NETNotes:Mic 5:25tn Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel.
I know that Jesus had his beginning before the creation of the world, for it was created through him. But having “origins” from “days of antiquity” does not sound like “from everlasting to everlasting”, like his God is said to be.
And I suppose I know as much about “time” and “eternity” as you do……….NOTHING. We mere mortals like to imagine we have concepts like time and space all figured out. Just like years ago, mere mortals were convinced that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth. Let's not try to prove our doctrines using the mere mortal scientific minds of today. Remember it was similar scientific minds that brought us the theory of evolution.
Let's just stick to what we know as fact and what we can decipher from scripture.SF:
Quote That makes no sense at all Mike, so your saying that Jesus was created before the First day?
Obviously D. All things came to be THROUGH him.SF:
Quote Yown is used typicaly to represent a day and also mentions the “yown of the lord” which some believe is day or a season of judgement.
That all depends on context.
I agree and have been arguing this exact point to JA and WJ. It is also used for any “general time period”.SF:
Quote Ok when you say “Jesus had a beginning” what does that mean to you ?
are you saying that “Jesus was created a really long time ago?”
Scriptures say he was both “begotten” by his God and the “beginning of the creation” by his God. So……YES!SF:
Quote Eternity can never be subjected to time, or represent a very long time ago.
Really? “I have waited for all eternity for you to finally answer my posts on this thread.” It's a poetic and metaphoric way of saying “a long flippin' time”. And don't forget, it is the LXX writers to poetically used “eternity” to express the Hebrew “antiquity”. They were both saying that Jesus had his BEGINNING a long time ago.SF:
Quote First i agree God alone did create, but since i believe Them to be one and the same, thats easy for me to receive.
Well then, receive this:Acts 4:24 NIV
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.They start their prayer to “GOD” and attribute the creation solely to Him. But how do we know they didn't mean the “Father/Son” God? From the way they finish the same prayer:
30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Scripture NEVER says we have “Creators” or that Jesus himself actually created anything.
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Quote God was STILL unknowable through anyone individually seeking him in the past.
Yet He had a one on one relationship with Adam, called Abraham His friend, and spoke to Moses “face to face”. He had special relationships with all of the Prophets and David and Solomon. It seems to me that God was well known to certain individuals before Jesus came as flesh.And I never said anyone knew EVERYTHING about God.
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Quote The Focus should be what is a DAy in Eternity, which days do not exist in Eternity.
So it could mean that he ALWAYS existed, he just coming from their, to participate within Time, or within creation to redeem.
The focus SHOULD be that Micah 5:2 CLEARLY says Jesus had a BEGINNING.peace and love,
mikeActs 4:24 NIV
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.They start their prayer to “GOD” and attribute the creation solely to Him. But how do we know they didn't mean the “Father/Son” God? From the way they finish the same prayer:
30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Hey D, do you want to discuss who actually created everything based on this scripture?
Do you want to discuss how Jesus is one of the “everything in heaven” that was created by his God?
I sure do.
peace and love,
mikeMike………Do you understand what it means to be the (SOVEREIGN LORD). That means there is NO OTHER And that one and ONLY Sovereign CREATED EVERYTHING HIMSELF and ALONE, He SAID. Then you come back and say how do you Know they didn't mean Father/ Son , GOD? Do you have to try to force every straight forward text to fit you dogmas of preexistences, even when it is obvious as to what they were saying and who they were giving the glory and Honor to.
peace and love……………………………gene
Really Gene?
Read the thread brother. D is the one who thinks God is a Father/Son duo……..not me. He said in his last post, “First i agree God alone did create, but since i believe Them to be one and the same, thats easy for me to receive.”
So I asked that question for him…..to beat him to the punch. And then I scripturally showed that the Father was clearly someone other than Jesus in their prayer – so there is NO POSSIBILITY that they meant some make-believe “Father/Son” duo. Get it?
Gene, I am all about the scriptures, man. Have you not noticed me going to war with Kathi about this same subject? OF COURSE I know that God ALONE created – because that's what the scriptures say.
peace and love,
mike
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