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FIRSTBORN OF DEATH IN JOB 18:13
DOES IT MEAN THAT DEATH HAS A MEMBER IN JOB 18:13
? IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT! PRAISE GOD!you are just making excuses mike. the truth is, YOU CANT READ WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! HAHAHAHAHAHA. IT'S JUST YOUR OWN EXPLANATION! PRAISE GOD!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 30 2011,10:31) Quote (carmel @ Dec. 29 2011,13:29) Also NWT TO BE AWARE HOW CORRUPTED THEIR SCRIPTURE IS.
Charles,Did you know there is a thread here called “Blatant Corruption in the NWT”? I have a standing challenge there to anyone who can post one single scripture that is translated wrong in the NWT.
Few have even tried, none have succeeded. Perhaps you and Wakeup will have a race to be the first?
As for the rest of your posts, get back to me when the drugs wear off. I can't make heads or tails out of any of it.
Quote Did you know there is a thread here called “Blatant Corruption in the NWT”? I have a standing challenge there to anyone who can post one single scripture that is translated wrong in the NWT. Mike,
That would be the most hell of a time wasted.
Charles
So Charles,
What you're saying is that you are content to just spead gossip about the NWT being a faulty translation, but aren't really willing or able to actually show one single scripture they translated wrong?
Hmmmm…………
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2011,02:54) So Charles, What you're saying is that you are content to just spead gossip about the NWT being a faulty translation, but aren't really willing or able to actually show one single scripture they translated wrong?
Hmmmm…………
The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Just three verses after John 1:1, the New World Translation translates another case of theos without the indefinite article as “God.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both “God” and “god” in the very same sentence.The Watchtower, therefore, has no hard textual grounds for their translation—only their own theological bias. While New World Translation defenders might succeed in showing that John 1:1 can be translated as they have done, they cannot show that it is the proper translation. Nor can they explain the fact that that the NWT does not translate the same Greek phrases elsewhere in the Gospel of John the same way. It is only the pre-conceived heretical rejection of the deity of Christ that forces the Watchtower Society to inconsistently translate the Greek text, thus allowing their error to gain some semblance of legitimacy in the minds of those ignorant of the facts.
As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. Here are some of the more prominent examples of intentional revisions:
The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurós (“cross”) as “torture stake” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the Greek words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as “hell” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation “presence” instead of “coming” for the Greek word parousia because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s. In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word “other” despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that “all other things” were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, “all things were created by Christ.” This is to go along with their belief that Christ is a created being, which they believe because they deny the Trinity.
Series of questions?
As many are aware, JW's have for years had a two-tier class system in place. In fact, when I was at Bethel, Freddy used to tell us for years they called them “Secondary Christian” aka “second class”. According to the boys in writing, God put this second class system in FULL SWING OR place in 1935. So this afternoon I get a call from this non-JW I have known for some years. I told him the next time a JW stopped by to ask them this question: “How do you prove from the Bible that 1935 was the year that the selection to heaven stopped due to being filled?” On Saturday, 2 friends stopped by his house in service. He and his wife invited them in and allowed them to go through their little funky CANNED presentation from this month's KM. After their friends finished, they said, “We have a question,” and they asked them to show them from their KJV or their JW Bible where it indicates that in 1935 the door to heaven was shut? We all know what happened. They could not take them to the Bible and show them that, so they asked to return on Sunday with someone who was more INFORMED ON EXPLAINING THE DEEEEEEEPER THINGS IN THE BIBLE so the couple agreed. Today the brother returned with one of the ELDERS. YEP they get to COUNT it as a RV. Anyway the elder prepared himself before they came. JW's have a very up-to-date Kingdom Hall, you see. They have a computer in the Elder's Office at the hall so the elder printed out a ton of WT publications to take over. I guess to show the non-JW that it does states 1935 as the year the door was closed “IN PRINT”. Due to the fact that I had prepared him, the non-JW was ready. The elder went into the talk that Rutherford gave in DC, and showed him all the articles that stated the door shut in 1935. The non-JW was ready with his questions. SO HE ASKED HIM a series of questions:1. Were ANY of the publications that stated 1935 as the year, INSPIRED?
2. Was the Writer of those articles INSPIRED?
3. WAS J.F. Rutherford INSPIRED WHEN he gave that talk in DC stating that 1935 was the date?
We all know what the poor elder had to say to ALL those questions 1. NO 2. NO 3. NO. SO THEN MY MAN said he asked the elder again, “Could you take me to the Inspired Word of God using either your Bible or mine and show me where it indicates 1935 as the year the door to heaven was shut? Once again the poor elder couldn't do it. So my friend asked him, “Since you can't take me directly to the Bible and show me this, unlike if I asked is stealing ok then would you agree that it calls for some form of INTERPRETATION?” OUR DEAR ELDER MADE a serious mistake here for he said, “Yes it does.” So my dear friend asked him, “Who in the JW religion does the interpretation? In my faith, it's the Pope, who does it for you?” Well, the bro told him the FDS helps us to understand the deeper meaning of things. So he asked him, “Are you saying that they INTERPRET THE BIBLE FOR YOU?” and the elder said, “Yes they do.” I had already told him that JW's normally say (if they are UP-TO -DATE): “We don't try to interpret the Bible, the Bible says interpretation belong to Jehovah.” So the dear elder opened his mouth and inserted his foot. So the non-JW told him that he had spoken to a former Bethelite who worked at the World Headquarters of JW's aka “1” who indicated to him that, “As JW's, we don't do interpretations since it only belongs to Jehovah.” So he said at this point, the poor elder just started to get bent out of shape. He was lost, so the elder told him that what he needed was A BIBLE STUDY. THIS WAY HE COULD LEARN THE DEEEEPER THINGS IN the Bible; but first he needed to learn the basics. So my man asked him, “If I have a Bible study, will I then be able to turn to the Inspired Word of God and find the 1935 date showing that God shut the door?” The poor elder told him, “No, he would not. BUT you would understand how we came to understand that 1935 was the date according to the Bible.” You've got to feel sorry for the dear elder and especially the poor publisher who saw an elder bring a ton of UNINSPIRED printouts and couldn't just take the Word of God and answer the man's question. So the next time a JW stops by, ask for Inspired Word of God Bible text that says that in 1935 the door was shut. Don't settle for anything less than the real Inspired Word of God, not some Knock off brand called the WT publications. Is it not amazing how when a non-JW knows just a little about the organization and WT teachings how they can bring your average 20-40 year JW to his knees just by asking a few simple questions. How sad!
The NWT translates the Greek words “ego eimi” as “I am” every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as “I have been”. What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If “ego eimi” was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as “… and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god”. How can the Word (Jesus) be “a god” if God says in Deut 32:39, “See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me …”?
The NWT translates the Greek word “kyrios” as “Jehovah” more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, 1Thess 5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word “Jehovah” translated when it does not appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as “Jehovah” in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 (see Gr-Engl Interlinear)?
In Phil 2:9, the NWT inserts the word “other”, even though it doesn't appear in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). What is the reason for inserting this word? Is the word “Jehovah” a name? See Ex 6:3, Ps 83:18, and Isa 42:8. How would the verse read if the word “other” had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6
Also Mike, If you yourself respond, and type the response and your thoughts, will it be you? Who else could it be besides you, if it it is not exclusively you?
Quote (mikeangel @ Jan. 01 2012,05:06) The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as “… and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god”. How can the Word (Jesus) be “a god” if God says in Deut 32:39, “See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me …”?
MarkEx 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
was Moses GOD
???if not ,then Jesus was like Moses if you understand
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2011,07:16) Quote (carmel @ Dec. 22 2011,00:14) 1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 5:20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
in 1:2 IT SAYS:and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
In 5:20 IT SAYS:This is the true God, and eternal life.
So if Jesus is the ETERNAL LIFE MANIFESTED,and the TRUE GOD IS ALSO ETERNAL LIFE!!
THEN JESUS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
Hi Charles,Your point is that both God AND Jesus are called “the eternal life”, right? First of all, you must be able to recognize the metaphor (actually “simile”) here. The Father is not “eternal life” itself, as if “life” is a being of any sort. What is meant in both cases is that the Father is able to GRANT eternal life, and now, so is Jesus:
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.See? Jesus didn't use to have life in himself. That quality was GRANTED him by his own God. God granted Jesus many things, even as He has also granted us many things.
Don't get confused with metaphors and similes. It is said “God is righteousness”; but you must be able to understand that “righteousness itself” is not our God. What it means is that God EMBODIES righteousness.
Same with “God is love”. We don't worship and pray to “love”, right? We worship and pray to the God who is the EMBODIMENT of “love”.
Or, “God is salvation”. God is not the abstract notion of being saved, but the One who DID the saving.
Do you get it? God is not “eternal life” itself, but instead the One who is able to GRANT eternal life. There now are two beings with that capability, because Jesus' own God GRANTED him the ability to also GRANT eternal life.
Anyway Charles, I would prefer if you wouldn't comment on my discussions with others right now. Normally I wouldn't mind, but ever since I've started this thread to get to the bottom of the scriptures YOU personally listed as “proofs” that Jesus is God, our conversations have been constantly sidetracked by the things others are saying.
Right now, I want to conclude our discussion on the John 1:1 stuff that you quoted. I want to be SURE that you completely understand what's going on with 1:1 before discussing “eternal life”, or anything else with you.
peace,
mikeQuote See? Jesus didn't use to have life in himself. That quality was GRANTED him by his own God. God granted Jesus many things, even as He has also granted us many things. Mike,
Jesus as a human being had nothing.
But Jesus Spirit always was eternal and equal with the Father.
You are getting confused, since you don't believe that Jesus is God in flesh SINCE He had the only spirit of God in Him, not full of, like john the Baptist and all the other saints, but without a limit in order to destroy all Satan’s work on earth, like giving back life to Lazarus after being dead for four days.
Mike,
The eternal life was possible only due to the fact that God created all in, all by, and all with Jesus spirit.
Jesus spirit was used by the Father as a partition, between the Father and all creatures, in order to preserve the eternal life within them,and also to be able to return to the Father through Jesus Spirit.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
OK Mike, the word(Jesus’ spirit) of God quick, and powerful, ………dividing asunder of soul and spirit,…..
What more do you want to realize what was Jesus’ function in creation.
Honestly Mike I wish and pray God to reflect for a while to be aware of this marvelous God's function.
So although Satan was functioning as an evil spirit, He was only serving God and doing so through Jesus Spirit as HIS energy UNAWARE THAT HE WAS DEPENDENT ON JESUS.
In fact he taught that he was really powerful,instead it was God the Father through Jesus Spirit within him.
Satan could never possess any strength since he was completely evil,for the simple reason that his power was always according to his honesty towards God.
But God through Jesus was acting within Him replacing the energy required to do like He wanted.
This is the love,meeknes, humbleness and simlicity of Jesus Spirit.
To love his enemy and to persuade him and get him back through his own plan.Now read
Hebrews1: 4 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
ALL ministering spirits OK MIKE the word “ALL” includes even Satan and his allies.
Mike,
SPIRTUAL CREATURES no matter what NEEDED THE ENERGY from God the Father to remain functionable as spirit beings, THIS WAS TO GUARANTEE TOTAL FREEDOM.
NOW,The Father is the purest of the pure spirits.
In order to achieve this, The Father had to be the main spiritual power BUT within His Son, as a protective substance to both God and Jesus'spirit creatures.
Therefore only through the Son within His own creatures since ALL creation was created from His Spirit. Again,The Father would have destroyed them the moment they committed the least sin, for the simple reason that He is sort of allergic to the least sin. But through Jesus’ spirit He preserved them in order to patiently, receive them back on their free will,and that were comes the eternal Life.
Jesus Spirit kept the eternal Life of all the entire creatures since He never left them even when they were evil.
Even in the abyss.
Lucifer became evil through a very long time, not in an instant, and this is a proof that God was within Jesus spirit with the power of the Holy Spirit therefore never destroyed him, and he was allowed to even persuade one third of the angels which also wasn’t in an instant, to support him.
It's all here read and reflect :
What and how Jesus manouvered,and worked through the the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit.
THE FULL HARMONY OF GOD IN THE FATHER ,SON,AND HOLY SPIRIT.
Psalm 139
O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy
presence?8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2011,10:50) carmel,Dec. wrote:It is Hebrews 2:11,and Hebrews 2:13
Now I excpect you to define it yourself, in order to find the truth.
Heb 2
10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12 He says,“I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
Verse 10: God, (ONE PERSON) made someone OTHER THAN God perfect through suffering. God did not suffer; the other person did.
Verse 11: Jesus and those who are made holy are of the same family, and therefore those who are made holy are brothers to Jesus. NOT “brothers to God”.
Verse 12: JESUS says he will declare the name of his God and sing the praises of his God.
Verse 13: JESUS says he puts his trust in his God. He also says, “Here I am, the the holy ones God has GIVEN me.” (Remember? God GAVE Jesus certain ones out of the world?)
Quote Now, tell me again which part of this is supposed to say Jesus is God Almighty?
Verse 13: JESUS says he puts his trust in his God. He also says, “Here I am, the the holy ones God has GIVEN me.” (Remember? God GAVE Jesus certain ones out of the world?)MIKE ,
Where did you get this :the holy ones God has given me.”
Mike, Holy ones are the angels .
We are not holy yet,but we are brothers to Jesus ,and children of God now.
Therefore If Verse 13: says ……….Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
I,(God the Father) and the Children God( Man Jesus through His death on the cross as man, therefore Brothers,)has given me.
Mike without Jesus God Man, the Father could never have human Children.
It is only because Jesus is Man God that the Father accepts humans since He is a spirit,most holy and non mortal.
But again,since Jesus being both Man and also God through the spirit without a limit from the Father,and He overcame sin,death,and glorified to become
THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST IN SPIRITUAL FLESH
WE BECAME ALSO PURIFIED IN ORDER TO BECOME ALSO BROTHERS TO JESUS AND CHILDREN OF GOD THE FATHER.
Mike that's why the glorification (resurrection) is the most vital for us Christians because since Jesus,while on earth being both Man and God,(blood and water,) died went to hell to be tested by fire and justified Himself, that He was the Holy one of God,therefore resisted the hottest fire,while Satan unaware holding Jesus as criminal couldn't, consequently Jesus resurrected.
Therefore:
Humans are no more children of Satan since Adam,but of God through the second Adam.Obvious we have to copy Christ, if we .
really want to become holy and children of God.THEREFORE:
BEHOLD I AND THE CHILDREN JESUS MAN GOD HAS GIVEN ME!
Now Mike,
It is all yours to twist
ESV:
13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
NIV:
And again,“I will put my trust in him.”
And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”e
NLT:
He also said,
“I will put my trust in him,”
that is, “I and the children God has given me.”f
peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (carmel @ Dec. 31 2011,12:59) THEREFORE: BEHOLD I AND THE CHILDREN JESUS MAN GOD HAS GIVEN ME!
Sorry Charlie,It is Jesus doing the speaking, and he is saying, “Here I (Jesus) am, and the children (of God, as we all are) God has given me (out of the world).”
It is a quote of Isaiah 8:18, and is supported by this scripture:
John 17:6
[ Jesus Prays for His Disciples ] “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.No twisting necessary, Charles.
Quote (mikeangel @ Dec. 31 2011,05:04) The NWT translates the Greek words “ego eimi” as “I am” every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as “I have been”. What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If “ego eimi” was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
Hi Mark,This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I tried to find the “Blatant Corruption in the NWT” thread, so I could move your posts over there, but something is wrong with the search function.
But since Charles is also one of those who slams the NWT without really knowing all the facts, I'll address your scriptures here.
John 14:9
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip,English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long,New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you,King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip,GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus replied, “I have been with all of you for a long time.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you,American King James Version
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you,American Standard Version
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;English Revised Version
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus saith to him, Have I been so long time with you,Weymouth New Testament
“Have I been so long among you,” Jesus answered,World English Bible
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time,NWT
Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time,Mark, do you see the words “Have I been” in all of these translations? They are the Greek words “ego eimi”. So first of all, your source is wrong in saying the NWT translates “ego eimi” as “I am” every time except for 8:58. Because, as you can see from the above, the NWT translates “ego eimi” as “Have I been” in 14:9, right along with all these other translations.
This is a translational idiosyncrasy, and can be found many times in the scriptures. Another one is Luke 15:29, where the Greek says “All these years I DO serve you”. But because we KNOW it is speaking of past tense, “I HAVE served you” is how almost every translation renders it.
Have you every heard someone who has English as a second language saying, “I AM married for 15 years now”, or something like that? They MEAN “I HAVE BEEN married for 15 years now”, but the differences in the languages cause them to say “I AM” instead of “I HAVE BEEN”.
It is the same here, as can be witnessed by all of the John 14:9 translations I listed above.
So the real dilemma isn't that the NWT, (knowing Jesus was saying he existed – past tense – before Abraham did), translated 8:58 as “I have been”. The faulty translations are the ones where Trinitarians, trying to force the scriptures into teaching their “truth”, render it as “I am”, a sentence that makes absolutely no sense in English at all.
Think about this, Mark: Each time Jehovah said “I am I AM” in the OT, the Hebrew words were “aniy yhwh”, meaning “I am I AM”. And in order for Jesus to be making a claim that he WAS Jehovah, he would also have had to say “ego eimi ego eimi”, meaning “I am I AM”.
Just saying the name of God out of the blue is not claiming to BE that God, right?
Let's put “Jehovah” in for the “I AM” Jesus was supposedly claiming to be. Do that, and the sentence reads:
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, Jehovah!”See? It makes no sense. Jehovah WHAT? Jehovah said WHAT? Jehovah did WHAT? “Before Abraham, Jehovah!” means absolutely nothing, Mark. And it is clear that Jesus wasn't saying, “Before Abraham, I am Jehovah!”, right?
And if he HAD said that, you could bet your bottom dollar that every single translation would change the present tense “I am” to a past tense “I have been”, or “I was”, so that it would make sense in English – as in “Before Abraham, I WAS Jehovah”.
But the bottom line is that since Jesus never said “I am I AM” in any scripture, Jesus never claimed to BE Jehovah.
So the entire reason these Trinitarians translate 8:58 wrong doesn't even pan out for them in the end.
Mark, I know this has been a long post already, but I will close with the words of Greek expert and Professor Jason BeDuhn, who did an unbiased comparison between 9 prominent English translations, and wrote a book entitled Truth in Translation. Please read it and learn:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language. The NWT understands the relation between the two verbs correctly. The average Bible reader might never guess that there was something wrong with the other translations, and might even assume that the error was to be found in the NWT.”
I'll wait to see what you or Charles have to say about John 8:58 before attacking your other scriptures. Remember this above all, Mark: It's not important to me to be “right” for the sake of being right. It IS however, important for me to base my scriptural understanding on ALL of the facts available. Here, I am merely showing you some facts that you may not have been aware of.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeangel @ Dec. 31 2011,22:04) The NWT translates the Greek words “ego eimi” as “I am” every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as “I have been”. What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If “ego eimi” was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
Mike,We were not talking bout John 14:9. the point was, the NWT translates “I AM” in all those scriptures, but not in the most important place there, because THEY had bias against Jesus being Devine God and Savior and man. Look at these other translations-
John 8:58 >>
New International Version (©1984)
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!”Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Yeshua said to them: “Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD.”GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.American King James Version
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.American Standard Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.English Revised Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.Weymouth New Testament
“In most solemn truth,” answered Jesus, “I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am.”World English Bible
Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM.”Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming — I am;'So the question still remains. Why did they change thier translation here, when it would be most important? Could it be ANTI-TRINITARIAN BIAS ? or ANTI-JESUS MIGHTY GOD, PRINCE OF PEACE, FATHER FOREVER?
What about the other Jehovahs Witness flaws I mentioned? what about them saying the world will never end, which is scriptrrally wrong? With all these errors, can they be trusted to re-translate the bible without error?
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2012,02:22) Quote (mikeangel @ Jan. 01 2012,05:06) The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as “… and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god”. How can the Word (Jesus) be “a god” if God says in Deut 32:39, “See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me …”?
MarkEx 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
was Moses GOD
???if not ,then Jesus was like Moses if you understand
Pierre
Pierre,Was Jesus born of a Virgin? Was Moses' name suppose to make every being in the Universe kneel down to his name? Surely, you know the differance between Jesus and Moses' roles and rank. “like God” or “as God” are not “you will be God to him”. Peace
Quote Mike, We were not talking bout John 14:9. the point was, the NWT translates “I AM” in all those scriptures, but not in the most important place there, because THEY had bias against Jesus being Devine God and Savior and man.
Mark, NO THEY DON'T. I have edited my previous post and supersized a part of it. Read the supersized part to see where your source is blatantly inaccurate.What the NWT does is translate “ego eimi” as “Have I been” in John 14:9, (JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER TRANSLATIONS I LISTED) because that is the true MEANING of 14:9.
And the true MEANING of 8:58 is, “I have existed even BEFORE Abraham existed”. So the NWT, knowing this, translates correctly. Did you even read my post, Mark? Did you read the green words from Professor BeDuhn? This dude is the Greek language Professor at Indiana State University. He knows what he's talking about. And he points out to you that every other translation adjusts for the idiomatic uses of “I am” everywhere else in scripture, (like they all do in 14:9), but “when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.”
Mark, he is talking about all the translations you just listed in your post. He is saying that THOSE translations are the WRONG ones, because they PURPOSELY “produce a sentence that makes no sense in English”, which “points to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators.”
Quote So the question still remains. Why did they change thier translation here……..
Actually, the real question is: Why do the OTHER TRANSLATORS render “ego eimi” as “I HAVE BEEN” in 14:9, but REFUSE to use that same common sense and that same integration of the words into the context in 8:58?The end result is that the NWT translates “ego eimi” correctly in BOTH 8:58 AND 14:9, while the others do it correctly ONLY in 14:9.
Quote …….when it would be most important? Could it be ANTI-TRINITARIAN BIAS ?
“Most important”? Why? I already told you that Jesus never said “I am I AM”. And the ONLY way 8:58 could be some divine self-identification is if he said “I am I AM”. So like I said, these Trinitarian translators produce a sentence that makes no sense in English for no real reason at all. Because even after they butcher the scripture, it STILL doesn't end up with Jesus claiming to BE Jehovah. He could only claim to BE Jehovah by saying “I am I AM”. And Jesus doesn't say those words in ANY scripture.So instead of NWT “bias” here, we actually see one of the MANY cases of Trinitarian bias, as they try to FORCE Jesus into saying something he CLEARLY never said in ANY scripture.
Quote What about the other Jehovahs Witness flaws I mentioned? what about them saying the world will never end, which is scriptrrally wrong?
First of all, I will happily get to all of your other SCRIPTURES after you acknowledge what I've shown you about 8:58.Secondly, many on this site, who AREN'T JWs, also think the heavens and earth will be RENEWED, and not completely destroyed and remade. (Remember? You and I both believe in a brand new heavens and earth, AGAINST the understanding of the JWs and most on this site.)
And thirdly, I am asking for SCRIPTURES that the NWT supposedly translated wrong – NOT for JW BELIEFS with which you disagree.
This exercise is to find out if the NWT is flawed – not to find out which JW doctrines we disagree with. You have mentioned John 1:1, and I am chomping at the bit to show you how this is yet another scripture that the NWT has right, while the TRINITARIANS, guided by THEIR bias, translate it wrong.
But I won't move on to John 1:1 until you understand the truth of 8:58.
Mark, do you understand that the Greek phrase “ego eimi” in John 14:9 is translated as “I have been” by virtually every English translation in existence? YES or NO?
Do you understand that even if we do illogically translate “ego eimi” as “I am” in 8:58, it is STILL not a case of Jesus saying “I am I AM”, and therefore STILL not a “Jesus is God” proof? YES or NO?
peace,
mike
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