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I don't think it matters if you think Jesus was an Angel before becoming Jesus on earth. What matters is if we hear him and obey him. Some people here seem to think that we are not saved if we do not believe Jesus was God, and so on. If they can prove it then fair enough, if they can't then they are just men teaching their doctrines.
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,05:20) Jesus was of God.
That's right Mark. Do you know what that little word “OF” means? If someone is OF GOD, then that someone cannot possbily BE God.Son OF God = NOT God Himself
Prophet OF God = NOT God Himself
Priest OF God = NOT God Himself
Servant OF God = NOT God Himself
Sacrificial Lamb OF God = NOT God Himself
Word/Spokesman OF God = NOT God Himself
Angel OF God = NOT God Himself
Anointed one OF God = NOT God HimselfAccording to scripture, Jesus is ALL of the above, Mark.
Do you assume that anyone else who is “OF SOMEONE” actually IS that someone they are “OF”? Or is it just Jesus?
For example, King David was also called a Servant OF God. Does that make King David God?
Moses was called a prophet OF God. Do you suppose Moses is also God?
Michael is called an angel OF God. Is Michael God Himself?
Why is it that you only make these illogical claims about Jesus and no one else in scripture?
Quote (vjesnik @ Oct. 04 2011,17:35) who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.
Brilliant, V.
I started a thread titled “John 8:25” for a similar purpose. In 8:24, Jesus says that if we don't believe he is who he says he is, we will die in our sins.
In 8:25, he is asked, “Who are you”, and responds, “Exactly who I've been claiming to be all along”.
The purpose of the thread was to give the “Jesus is God Almighty” people a chance to show from the DIRECT QUOTES of Jesus himself where he ever claimed to be God.
I made a list of quotes from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel, (up to the point where Jesus said the words of 8:25). I listed 22 verses where Jesus clearly claimed to be someone OTHER THAN and/or LESSOR TO God, but we have yet to find any scripture where Jesus himself claimed to BE God.
Your point here takes that exercise one step higher in authority – and I love the idea. Who exactly DID God say Jesus was?
I might start another thread for that question – unless you want to. We could start at Genesis, and work through every prophecy of Jesus to see if the Father ever claimed him to be God Himself. And then move on to the words of the Father in the NT.
Like I said, I love that idea. So, thanks.
mike
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,17:45) He is not God the Father on earth, yes, but no one can say he is not Lord, KING, ruler, or Judge
And your point is……………….?Jesus' GOD is the One who set him as King on Zion. Jesus' GOD is the One who made him both Lord and Christ. Jesus rules IN THE POWER and NAME of his own God, Jehovah. And his GOD has given him authority to judge and forgive sins.
What part of these scriptural FACTS would make someone think Jesus IS the God who GAVE him all these things?
Mark, is Jesus the ONLY “Lord, KING, ruler, or Judge” that ever existed? NO, there have been countless numbers of them. Why is Jesus the only one you want to elevate to the status of the God who set him above his companions and anointed him with the oil of joy?
I just don't get it, man.
Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2011,10:06) I love confrontations with the aim of discover the truth about God.
Hi Charles,I'm trying to do just that. But you are not going to come to any scriptural truth by just posting 100 scriptures at a time and believing they all prove Jesus is God.
The whole idea of this thread was to break down your big list of “Jesus is God” scriptures so that we could address them ONE BY ONE, and see if any of them really DO say that Jesus is God. I've already easily refuted the first three. The others are all just as easily refuted too. I know this already because, as Mark pointed out, we've both been down this road before. But you are not going to learn the TRUTH of the matter until you're ready to take each scripture ONE AT A TIME and evaluate it against the scriptures as a whole to find out if it even does say what you think it does.
Why are you not interested in doing this? Why is NO “Jesus is God” person EVER interested in doing this? I started with Keith, and he bailed. I've done it with Jack, and he bailed. I tried it with Francis, and he bailed. Mark also bailed.
You aren't bailing yet, but we also aren't getting anywhere. You need to pick ONE scripture, and ONE scripture ONLY, post it with an explanation of why you think it teaches that Jesus is God, and then let us all examine that ONE scripture against the rest of the scriptures to see if you're right or wrong about it.
Will you be the first one on HN who is both WILLING to do this exercise AND unwilling to bail?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,22:20) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2011,20:10) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2011,17:33) Therefore Jesus is God Himself in Flesh.
Have you not read that the Word became flesh?
Have you not read that God is not a man?
Have you not read that God was in Jesus Christ, and that God can be in us too. Since when does someone become God when God is in them?
When they are the ONLY man to be born of the Holy Sririt, to a virgin, composed of literally Jehovah. Every other saint, prophet, martyr, rightious or otherwise upright man was born of sex, with a human man as his Father. Jesus was of God. To believe otherwise strips your grace,IMO, because faith in mere man cannot save you. His sacrifice saves you, and replaced all atonement sacrifices, because he was and is the PERFECT sacrifice. GOD crucified. None other can fulfill this but God. Can God be both God the Father and represent himself in human form in Jesus? YES! Nothing is impossible for God. You just have to have faith in Jesus, and that can and will save you. One day Everyone will kneel and worship and confess that Jesus is Lord, saved or not. Love, MarkP.S. I liked reading your post Charles.
Hi Mark! I was just reading what you said. OK lets see who we should worship…. Before I do that I want to say that I honor Jesus because He is my Lord and King….. But I only worship Almighty God…. The reason is that God is above all and even Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater then He is….. Jesus neer claimed to be Almighty God, but the Son of God…. Jesus in Hebrew and John is called God. However we have to understand that God is only title just like Lord and King is…..In Ancient time many were called God…. Even Satan is called God of this earth…..He is keeping all; of us captive…. If it would not be for Jesus we would all stay in the grave….. He now has immortality which only Almighty God always had and He gave Jesus immortality now… He will never die again….
While the Angels can die….The Demons and Satan who are Spirit beings will be destroyed one day in the Lake of Fire…..Almighty God name alone is Jehovah
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.
Deu 4:35 “He showed you these things so you would know that the LORD is God and there is no other.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD
When you see LORD in all capital letters it is Jehovah God..We have a Ryie Study Bible and in the footnotes it says….that the translators did not want to take Gods word in vain…
Eph 4:6 and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all.
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
And by Jesus own words He said this
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Also Mark, the Holy Spirit is not the third [erson of the trinity…
I will list these Scriptures for you on another time, I have to go…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Pastry @ Oct. 05 2011,14:34) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,22:20) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2011,20:10) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2011,17:33) Therefore Jesus is God Himself in Flesh.
Have you not read that the Word became flesh?
Have you not read that God is not a man?
Have you not read that God was in Jesus Christ, and that God can be in us too. Since when does someone become God when God is in them?
When they are the ONLY man to be born of the Holy Sririt, to a virgin, composed of literally Jehovah. Every other saint, prophet, martyr, rightious or otherwise upright man was born of sex, with a human man as his Father. Jesus was of God. To believe otherwise strips your grace,IMO, because faith in mere man cannot save you. His sacrifice saves you, and replaced all atonement sacrifices, because he was and is the PERFECT sacrifice. GOD crucified. None other can fulfill this but God. Can God be both God the Father and represent himself in human form in Jesus? YES! Nothing is impossible for God. You just have to have faith in Jesus, and that can and will save you. One day Everyone will kneel and worship and confess that Jesus is Lord, saved or not. Love, MarkP.S. I liked reading your post Charles.
Hi Mark! I was just reading what you said. OK lets see who we should worship…. Before I do that I want to say that I honor Jesus because He is my Lord and King….. But I only worship Almighty God…. The reason is that God is above all and even Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater then He is….. Jesus neer claimed to be Almighty God, but the Son of God…. Jesus in Hebrew and John is called God. However we have to understand that God is only title just like Lord and King is…..In Ancient time many were called God…. Even Satan is called God of this earth…..He is keeping all; of us captive…. If it would not be for Jesus we would all stay in the grave….. He now has immortality which only Almighty God always had and He gave Jesus immortality now… He will never die again….
While the Angels can die….The Demons and Satan who are Spirit beings will be destroyed one day in the Lake of Fire…..Almighty God name alone is Jehovah
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.
Deu 4:35 “He showed you these things so you would know that the LORD is God and there is no other.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD
When you see LORD in all capital letters it is Jehovah God..We have a Ryie Study Bible and in the footnotes it says….that the translators did not want to take Gods word in vain…
Eph 4:6 and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all.
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
And by Jesus own words He said this
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Also Mark, the Holy Spirit is not the third [erson of the trinity…
I will list these Scriptures for you on another time, I have to go…
Peace and Love Irene
Hey Irene,
Hope ya'll are well.
You said-
“Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.Also Mark, the Holy Spirit is not the third [erson of the trinity…”
Now, the term trinity is not in the bible. But the first line here states that God is a spirit. I can't comprehend it, but since he is a spirit, and he is here now (in spirit), and he is in heaven, and his own flesh died on the cross, that is three beings but one spirit, whatever it is termed.Peace-Mark
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2011,12:42) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,17:45) He is not God the Father on earth, yes, but no one can say he is not Lord, KING, ruler, or Judge
And your point is……………….?Jesus' GOD is the One who set him as King on Zion. Jesus' GOD is the One who made him both Lord and Christ. Jesus rules IN THE POWER and NAME of his own God, Jehovah. And his GOD has given him authority to judge and forgive sins.
What part of these scriptural FACTS would make someone think Jesus IS the God who GAVE him all these things?
Mark, is Jesus the ONLY “Lord, KING, ruler, or Judge” that ever existed? NO, there have been countless numbers of them. Why is Jesus the only one you want to elevate to the status of the God who set him above his companions and anointed him with the oil of joy?
I just don't get it, man.
Hey Mike,You said-
” Why is Jesus the only one you want to elevate to the status of the God who set him above his companions and anointed him with the oil of joy?”Because he is the only human man that was composed literally from God. His dad was literally God. He was the only perfect human being, with power and wonders to prove it. He was one with God not only in spirit, but in flesh also. He is literally part of the literal God, his very right arm. The hand to most that does most of the work. No other person from or to eternity is. He is that is. He is the only human that can say that he is the “I AM”, and not be blasphemous. He is the only human that can say “I have and do not sin”. That is why he is the only human I want to and will elevate to the status of God. And not only that, but even though I deserve the punishment he went through, he took my sins and paid the price, even though he is God. He is THE KING forever. Love,Mark
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2011,22:20) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2011,20:10) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 04 2011,17:33) Therefore Jesus is God Himself in Flesh.
Have you not read that the Word became flesh?
Have you not read that God is not a man?
Have you not read that God was in Jesus Christ, and that God can be in us too. Since when does someone become God when God is in them?
When they are the ONLY man to be born of the Holy Sririt, to a virgin, composed of literally Jehovah. Every other saint, prophet, martyr, rightious or otherwise upright man was born of sex, with a human man as his Father. Jesus was of God. To believe otherwise strips your grace,IMO, because faith in mere man cannot save you. His sacrifice saves you, and replaced all atonement sacrifices, because he was and is the PERFECT sacrifice. GOD crucified. None other can fulfill this but God. Can God be both God the Father and represent himself in human form in Jesus? YES! Nothing is impossible for God. You just have to have faith in Jesus, and that can and will save you. One day Everyone will kneel and worship and confess that Jesus is Lord, saved or not. Love, MarkP.S. I liked reading your post Charles.
I take back the comment of stripping grace. I take that out of my opinion. Only God can judge who has grace and who doesn't and why.Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 05 2011,10:47) Quote (vjesnik @ Oct. 05 2011,17:35) There are a lot of opinions on who Jesus is and lot of biblical texts that different doctrines interpret differently. So how to know which interpretations are right?
To me most wise would be to start with this question: who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.God bless
vjesnik
vjesnikvery good question;and God say that Jesus is his son;
Jn 1:34 I (John the Baptist)have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mt 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
even demon testify to that;;but many are not content with this
terrariccaQuote very good question;and God say that Jesus is his son; In your opinion how would you define Son in tha terms of God ?
.
Quote this is not reflected in the scriptures you quote ,and there is no scripture that says that Christ his GOD and MAN I respect your wisdom.Since it is like mine worldly.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2011,09:06) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 05 2011,10:47) Quote (vjesnik @ Oct. 05 2011,17:35) There are a lot of opinions on who Jesus is and lot of biblical texts that different doctrines interpret differently. So how to know which interpretations are right?
To me most wise would be to start with this question: who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.God bless
vjesnik
vjesnikvery good question;and God say that Jesus is his son;
Jn 1:34 I (John the Baptist)have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mt 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
even demon testify to that;;but many are not content with this
terrariccaQuote very good question;and God say that Jesus is his son; In your opinion how would you define Son in tha terms of God ?
.
Quote this is not reflected in the scriptures you quote ,and there is no scripture that says that Christ his GOD and MAN I respect your wisdom.Since it is like mine worldly.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
CharlesQuote In your opinion how would you define Son in tha terms of God ? first;God is a title right ;so let him be called by the name he give us ;Jehovah see below
but I can add ;the creator ,the only living God,the true God,the God of truth,the God that always was ,his and will be;
how is that are you agreeing with this
Y@hovah
hwhy Y@hovah
Pronunciation:yeh-ho-vaw'
Origin:from 01961
Reference:TWOT – 484a
PrtSpch:noun proper deity
In Hebrew:hwhy 5424, hwhyl 552, hwhyb 104, hwhyw 96, hwhym 21, hwhyk 4, hwhymw 4, hwhybw 2, hwhylw 2, syrh 1, hwhys 1, h 1, hwhyh 1
In NET:Lord 5379, Lord's 601, he 34, LORD 22, sovereign 9, him 9, his 7, He 4, I 4, God 3, you 3, divine 2, lord 2, temple 2, Lord your God 1, Solomon 1, God's 1, divine revelation 1, room 1, said 1, says 1, my 1, inside 1, belong to the Lord 1, changed 1, home 1, Sovereign 1
In AV:LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1
Count:6519
Definition:Jehovah = “the existing One”1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish
national name of God:-Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.
see HEBREW for 01961
see HEBREW for 03050
see HEBREW for 03069
Variations
in Bible:Lord (KJV)
LORD (TEV)Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2011,02:26) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2011,09:06) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 05 2011,10:47) Quote (vjesnik @ Oct. 05 2011,17:35) There are a lot of opinions on who Jesus is and lot of biblical texts that different doctrines interpret differently. So how to know which interpretations are right?
To me most wise would be to start with this question: who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.God bless
vjesnik
vjesnikvery good question;and God say that Jesus is his son;
Jn 1:34 I (John the Baptist)have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mt 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
even demon testify to that;;but many are not content with this
terrariccaQuote very good question;and God say that Jesus is his son; In your opinion how would you define Son in tha terms of God ?
.
Quote this is not reflected in the scriptures you quote ,and there is no scripture that says that Christ his GOD and MAN I respect your wisdom.Since it is like mine worldly.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
CharlesQuote In your opinion how would you define Son in tha terms of God ? first;God is a title right ;so let him be called by the name he give us ;Jehovah see below
but I can add ;the creator ,the only living God,the true God,the God of truth,the God that always was ,his and will be;
how is that are you agreeing with this
Y@hovah
hwhy Y@hovah
Pronunciation:yeh-ho-vaw'
Origin:from 01961
Reference:TWOT – 484a
PrtSpch:noun proper deity
In Hebrew:hwhy 5424, hwhyl 552, hwhyb 104, hwhyw 96, hwhym 21, hwhyk 4, hwhymw 4, hwhybw 2, hwhylw 2, syrh 1, hwhys 1, h 1, hwhyh 1
In NET:Lord 5379, Lord's 601, he 34, LORD 22, sovereign 9, him 9, his 7, He 4, I 4, God 3, you 3, divine 2, lord 2, temple 2, Lord your God 1, Solomon 1, God's 1, divine revelation 1, room 1, said 1, says 1, my 1, inside 1, belong to the Lord 1, changed 1, home 1, Sovereign 1
In AV:LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1
Count:6519
Definition:Jehovah = “the existing One”1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish
national name of God:-Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.
see HEBREW for 01961
see HEBREW for 03050
see HEBREW for 03069
Variations
in Bible:Lord (KJV)
LORD (TEV)Pierre
Pierre,I'm afraid you misunderstood me .
I repeat:
In your opinion how would you define a SON in terms of God ?
In human terms we understand what a SON is and also all the relations with his father, But when we are referring to the SON of God ,how would you define a SON of God in relation to His Father.
I hope I am clear now.
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (vjesnik @ Oct. 05 2011,10:35) There are a lot of opinions on who Jesus is and lot of biblical texts that different doctrines interpret differently. So how to know which interpretations are right?
To me most wise would be to start with this question: who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.God bless
vjesnik
vjesnik,Read these scriptures, and you yourself decide what Jesus is according to the Father.
Hebrews 1:7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.
11 They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment.
12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 04 2011,13:41) Btw Charles, I do see all the scriptures and points you've been posting, such as: “Who is equal to God, but God!” And they are all just as easily refuted as this one: For someone to be EQUAL TO another, that someone cannot possibly BE that other.
So don't think I'm ignoring your points. It's just that I won't refute 40 scriptures in one post. It takes too long, and things start to get muddled.
So……………if you would like to change this thread from going through your list on page 1 to you posting one “Jesus is God” scripture at a time, we can do that. Because, one at a time, I will show you that not one of your “Jesus is God proofs” REALLY says that the Son OF God is the God he is the Son OF.
Would you like to do that? Or just keep going through your list on page 1?
Mike,Quote I do see all the scriptures and points you've been posting, such as: “Who is equal to God, but God!” And they are all just as easily refuted as this one: For someone to be EQUAL TO another, that someone cannot possibly BE that other. AS always Mike. You are talking about Almighty God,and you are giving more importance to the definitions of words like equal, than to God.
You are limiting God, and conclude that since it is as you say regarding our worldly wisdom,and carnal reasoning, it is also the same with God, and with every respect ,that is pride in you, Mike.
Mike could someone equal God??
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 04 2011,13:34) So, is that a YES or a NO, Charles? Do you have any scriptural proof that would convince us that the Son OF God having power makes him the God he is the Son OF? I vote “NO”. Because simply having power, (especially when we know that power was GIVEN BY God), does not make someone God Himself.
Your second point was:
Who is omniscient (all knowing)? 1 John 3:20 Colossians 2:2-3That one's easy:
Matthew 24:36
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.This disproves that Jesus is “all knowing”. Nor does Col 2:2-3 even say Jesus is “all knowing” in the first place.
And although the following scripture doesn't really come out and shout it, I get the feeling that Jesus doesn't even know who the Father has prepared these places for:
Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”At the very least, this scripture explains that it is the GOD OF Jesus who has the right to grant these places……………NOT Jesus.
Charles, God Almighty does not have a God of His own. Jesus does.
Any rebuttal to point #2? Or are we ready to address #3?
peace,
mike
Mike,And although the following scripture doesn't really come out and shout it, I get the feeling that Jesus doesn't even know who the Father has prepared these places for:
Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father. [QUOTEI like this one Mike, but you should have pasted verse 22 as well, because it is very important. I will paste it for you.
Matthew 20:22:But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Now let us reason with the hope of becoming aware of some truth!!
There are some things God did not intend for man to know. Not just us, but also His own flesh! in Jesus, Since he was “found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself…”
.
“It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” Acts 1:7 “…of that day and hour knoweth no man.”Mat. 24:36, Mark 13:32. Not even the “Son of man!”
Why? Because as a man, he was made like his brethren!
In fashion as a man he should not know.( Not He didn’t know)
Now referring to 20: 22, He said: Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Here Jesus asked a question and it seemed that He never knew the answer, since they answered Him, We are able ! and then He stated in 20:23 You will indeed drink from my cup etc.. etc.. I am sure He knew that they were able to drink from His cup since He himself purposely created and chose them .
But Jesus here humbled himself and respected God’s attributes, and demonstrated that as a man, he was made like his brethren!
In fashion as a man he should not know.( Not He didn’t know)
Therefore, this applies also to your poor conclusion, when you stated :
I get the feeling that Jesus doesn't even know who the Father has prepared these places for:
So to me ,I am afraid you are completely ignoring the fact that Jesus as human must behave likewise. Especially when He referred to His Father.
There are other events that Jesus made it evident, that He was human.
If it was clear that Jesus was The Son of God ,or God they would have never killed Him, the purpose of His coming on earth.
Corinthians 1:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,05:57)
Hey Mike,You said-
” Why is Jesus the only one you want to elevate to the status of the God who set him above his companions and anointed him with the oil of joy?”Because he is the only human man that was composed literally from God. His dad was literally God.
But can't you read your own words, Mark? HIS DAD is God, not him. He is, as you said yesterday, “OF God”, which means that, just like everything else in existence, he too came FROM his God – just like you've stated today.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,05:57)
He was one with God not only in spirit, but in flesh also.
God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,05:57)
He is literally part of the literal God, his very right arm.
In scripture, Cyrus is also called the right arm of God. He was also a messiah sent from God and prophesied about many years before he existed on earth. Perhaps Cyrus is also God Himself?Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,05:57)
He is the only human that can say that he is the “I AM”, and not be blasphemous.
First of all, it is very unlikely that YHWH even means “I AM”.Second, Jesus never said the words “I am I AM”. On a number of occasions, Jesus uttered “I am”, which happens to be the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language. But he never claimed to BE someone named “I AM”.
Third, if Jesus couldn't possibly blaspheme because he WAS God, then why did he deny blaspheming in John 10:34-36?
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,05:57)
he took my sins and paid the price, even though he is God.
You mean “SON OF God”, right? There is a big difference, you know? The SON OF the President is not the President, right? The SON OF the King of Persia is not the King of Persia, right? Likewise, the SON OF God is not God.Mark, you didn't address my other post to you. Could you tell us how God Himself could be all of these following things?
Son OF God
Prophet OF God
Priest OF God
Servant OF God
Sacrificial Lamb OF God
Word/Spokesman OF God
Angel OF God
Anointed one OF GodQuote (carmel @ Oct. 05 2011,14:01)
You are limiting God, and conclude that since it is as you say regarding our worldly wisdom,and carnal reasoning, it is also the same with God, and with every respect ,that is pride in you, Mike.
Charles, God Himself is the One who said he “begot a Son”. Surely God would have known how we as humans would understand this. We understand a father/son relationship by the knowledge God Himself created us with. It is HE who set up the father/son relationship in the first place.So you won't convince me that Jesus is God just by saying, “We can't possibly understand the ways of God, so the Son OF God actually could be the very God he is the Son OF”.
Please don't use the “carnal reasoning” against me. Both God and Jesus explained spiritual things using metaphors of earthly things that we would understand. There is NO scriptural indication that the Father/Son relationship of God and Jesus is any different than the relationship between you and your son: You, as the father, brought your son, who is NOT you, into existence. And before the time you begot your son, he did not exist.
Quote (carmel @ Oct. 05 2011,14:01)
Mike could someone equal God??
Not completely, no. But then again, scripture never says Jesus is “EQUAL TO” his own God. But……..even if it did say that…………you must remember that one cannot be “equal to” himself. So, like I said, if Jesus is “equal TO” God, then Jesus cannot possibly BE God.Nice chat, Charles. I enjoy the discussions when the post are short, sweet, and to the point.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (carmel @ Oct. 05 2011,14:43) There are some things God did not intend for man to know. Not just us, but also His own flesh! Therefore, this applies also to your poor conclusion, when you stated :
I get the feeling that Jesus doesn't even know who the Father has prepared these places for:
So to me ,I am afraid you are completely ignoring the fact that Jesus as human must behave likewise. Especially when He referred to His Father.
So then, as a human being on earth, Jesus WASN'T really “omniscient”, like you originally claimed?Hi Charles, Mark, and any other “Jesus is God” believer out there.
How about a little “tit for tat” here? It seems that most of my time on HN is spent refuting the claims of the “Jesus is God” people. It seems that far less time is spent by them refuting the actual scriptures that make it clear Jesus is NOT God.
So I thought it only fair that as we're going through addressing YOUR points, you should also address ours.
Micah 5:4
And he will certainly stand and do shepherding in the strength of Jehovah, in the superiority of the name of Jehovah his God.Why does Jesus, as “God Himself”, have to shepherd the flock in the STRENGTH and NAME of Jehovah, his OWN god?
peace,
mikeCharles
Quote Pierre, I'm afraid you misunderstood me .
I repeat:
In your opinion how would you define a SON in terms of God ?
In human terms we understand what a SON is and also all the relations with his father, But when we are referring to the SON of God ,how would you define a SON of God in relation to His Father.
I hope I am clear now.
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
what is a son to us human but an other independent being like us
so if God called his first creation son it is so that i understand it ;we can not create our children God did that for us,
but God create all things and his son is the first being that he says he created and that's all we have to know as men ,
if you have more intake please en-light me
Pierre
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