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Quote (carmel @ Nov. 09 2011,15:10) John 17:5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee What is the meaning with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
If God the Father is eternal,and Jesus said WITH YOURSELF,and ended up with the words WITH YOU.
THEREFORE JESUS WAS ETERNAL WITH GOD HIMSELF.
Quote What is the meaning with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
What is the meaning of “before the world was”? It obviously doesn't mean “from eternity”, unless the angels who shouted for joy at the creation of the world were also “from eternity”.Charles, like I said before, you are taking the words “before the world was” and insisting that those words mean “from eternity”. They don't.
peace,
mikeQuote (carmel @ Nov. 09 2011,15:26) John 4:22You worship you know not what…… Jesus in the above scripture said to the Samaritan woman : “you worship you know not.”
That's how evident was God. Not only a mystery but unknown, never mind Father.
Charles, not only did the Jews know exactly who Jehovah their God was, but Jesus even confirmed that in the part of the scripture you left out. He also included himself as one of the worshippers OF that God in the part you left out.22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
There was never a question since Abraham as to who God was. Your implication that God was an “unknown mystery” until Jesus is unscriptural, and frankly, absurd.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2011,10:16) Quote (carmel @ Nov. 09 2011,15:10) John 17:5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee What is the meaning with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
If God the Father is eternal,and Jesus said WITH YOURSELF,and ended up with the words WITH YOU.
THEREFORE JESUS WAS ETERNAL WITH GOD HIMSELF.
Quote What is the meaning with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
What is the meaning of “before the world was”? It obviously doesn't mean “from eternity”, unless the angels who shouted for joy at the creation of the world were also “from eternity”.Charles, like I said before, you are taking the words “before the world was” and insisting that those words mean “from eternity”. They don't.
peace,
mikeQuote Charles, like I said before, you are taking the words “before the world was” and insisting that those words mean “from eternity”. They don't. Mike,
NO, YOU ARE SAYING THAT!
THIS WHAT I SAID
What is the meaning :with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
If God the Father is eternal,and Jesus said WITH YOURSELF,and ended up with the words WITH YOU.
THEREFORE JESUS WAS ETERNAL WITH GOD HIMSELF.
Before the world was,is to indcate that Jesus as a spiritual being,was with God. LIKE JOHN SAID :THE WORD WAS WITH GOD,AND THE WORD WAS GOD!!
BUT HOW IS NOT WITHIN OUR CORRUPTED INTELIGENCE.
Now this you have to be aware of!!
That Jesus as a spiritual being was one with God when the world was not even in existance,not when He recreated it in Genesis 1. but in the beginning of the creation of havean and earth.
Also the word earth is not meant our world as such, but it is referring to all cosmos which included our ex world.
Then in Genesis 1:2 something disturbed God's creation,and it resulted in the destruction of our planet.
Then the spirit of God moved.
And in Genesis 1:3 God said let there be light..
Now this was not the sun,because the sun came in the fourth day,ALTHOUGH IT WAS IN EXISTANCE.
That means that the only LIGHT WAS THE THE SPIRIT OF THE SON WHICH GOD EMANATED FROM HIM TO RECREATE OUR WORLD ANEW.
peace and love in Jesus.
Charles
Charles,
Just stopped by to check on you. Hope you are well and blessed. I agree with you, Jesus was from eternity with God, as stated in John 1:1. “In the beginning” was infinity back, just like in Genisis 1:1. the second sentance to John 1:1, “was the word” . Hmmm. the word as far as I know was the scriptures, wrote with the inspiration of the holy spirit from the influance of the holy spirit Inside of God from eternity. Without the spirit there would be no God. Without God there would be no spirit. “24God is a Spirit: John 4” They are one. The spirit is also described as “the breath of God”. Then “the word” was “made flesh”-Jesus. Makes perfect sense to me. Hold you head up. Carry on….,.
Charles
Quote Now this was not the sun,because the sun came in the fourth day,ALTHOUGH IT WAS IN EXISTANCE.
show me the scripture that says thatQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2011,10:25) Quote (carmel @ Nov. 09 2011,15:26) John 4:22You worship you know not what…… Jesus in the above scripture said to the Samaritan woman : “you worship you know not.”
That's how evident was God. Not only a mystery but unknown, never mind Father.
Charles, not only did the Jews know exactly who Jehovah their God was, but Jesus even confirmed that in the part of the scripture you left out. He also included himself as one of the worshippers OF that God in the part you left out.22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
There was never a question since Abraham as to who God was. Your implication that God was an “unknown mystery” until Jesus is unscriptural, and frankly, absurd.
peace,
mike
The expression “and the Word was God” means that the Word is eternal. How could John call the Word “God” if He was not eternal?Every translation in the entire universe translates 1:1c, “and the Word was God” except the NWT which is the product of men who were unlearned in the original languages. The predicate nominative “God” in 1:1c does not need the article to be definite. The exact same grammatical construction is used in referencing the Father (John 8:54).
Before you bring up the Sahidic Coptics go to the thread I started on that early this year.
Mike said:
Quote He also included himself as one of the worshippers OF that God in the part you left out. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
So Jesus was saying that He worshiped God in pretense?“BUT the hour is coming when the TRUE worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.”
Jesus was saying that you Samartians do not worship the true God and “we” Jews worship the true God [in pretense].
Jesus was obviously using the “we” editorially when He suggested that the Jews worship the true God in pretense. He was not saying that He Himself worshiped in pretense nor that He Himself worshiped.
I can say, “We Americans waste food” without implying that I personally waste food because I don't. Jesus' point was that the Samaritans and the Jews were NOT true worshipers. Therefore, the “we” is to be understood editorially.
It will be a cold day in hades before Sonny debunks Trinitarianism.
KJ
Quote (carmel @ Nov. 10 2011,00:23) Mike, NO, YOU ARE SAYING THAT!
THIS WHAT I SAID
What is the meaning :with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee
If God the Father is eternal,and Jesus said WITH YOURSELF,and ended up with the words WITH YOU.
THEREFORE JESUS WAS ETERNAL WITH GOD HIMSELF.
So if a scripture said that Michael the archangel was with God before the world was, would those words mean that Michael was also from eternity? YES or NO Charles?Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,06:46) I agree with you, Jesus was from eternity with God, as stated in John 1:1. “In the beginning” was infinity back, just like in Genisis 1:1.
So God created the earth from “infinity back” Mark? The earth has ALWAYS existed? YES or NO please?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,17:26)
The expression “and the Word was God” means that the Word is eternal.
Unfortunately for you, that expression does not exist in any Greek mss. Even Trinitarian scholars point out that the Word could not possibly have been the “person of God”, because that scenario is ruled out by part b: “the Word was WITH God”.Jack, can the BEING of God be WITH the BEING of God? YES or NO please?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,17:26)
Jesus was obviously using the “we” editorially when He suggested that the Jews worship the true God in pretense. He was not saying that He Himself worshiped in pretense nor that He Himself worshiped.
What scripture tells you this, Jack? Because I can list scripture where Jesus says that our God is the same exact God as his God. I can show you scripture where Jesus tells us who THE ONLY ONE to be worshipped is. I can show you boatloads of scriptures that support the fact that Jesus not only PRAYED TO HIS GOD, but also worshipped Him.What scripture can you show me that makes John 4:22 an “editorial” statement? Or could it be that like every other Trinity “proof text” we've ever discussed, it is just a matter of you WANTING the scriptures to say things they don't really say?
Charles, Jack, and Mark,
I have asked each of you a “YES or NO” question in my responses to your posts. Along with your DIRECT answer to the simple question I've asked you each individually, I have one more very simple line of questioning I would like your DIRECT answers to:
Is Jesus Christ the Son OF God, or God Himself? Which answer is given by the scriptures? Which answer did Jesus himself teach us?
It is a simple question…………please answer it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,06:46) I agree with you, Jesus was from eternity with God, as stated in John 1:1. “In the beginning” was infinity back, just like in Genisis 1:1.
So God created the earth from “infinity back” Mark? The earth has ALWAYS existed? YES or NO please?
No. The earth has not always existed. In the beginning, there was nothing. No light, no form (not even planets), nothing. God, and only God existed. Good, Pure., Love. Then everything was created through him. And in the fullness of time he promised he would send himself to save us after our fall. Even the Jews understood that. That's why they knew what it ment for him to claim to be “The Son Of God”, the Messiah. Even they state in the scriptures “we are not stoning you for any good work, but claiming to be God” That never came into question until others came in and misrepresented him. But the fact still remains-he existed before anything, because everything was created through him. EVERYTHING. Planets, galaxys, very existances.”in the beginning” One for sure is ours. That puts him squarely at “Alpha”, and “First”, just like his AND his Fathers title states. It is used scripturally only on them alone. “the first and the last”. As I discovered from you earlier, it was eternity ago, and that means that they have no beginning, and no end.They are One, but only separate entities while Jesus walked on earth, (30 something years or so). Peace MarkQuote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,06:46) I agree with you, Jesus was from eternity with God, as stated in John 1:1. “In the beginning” was infinity back, just like in Genisis 1:1.
So God created the earth from “infinity back” Mark? The earth has ALWAYS existed? YES or NO please?
No. The earth has not always existed.
Then your own words just proved that “in the beginning” does not HAVE TO mean “from eternity”. So why would you be so positive that those same words in John 1:1 are PROOF of anything, Mark?Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:32) God, and only God existed. Then everything was created through him.
I believe you are confused. All things came FROM God, and THROUGH His Son. (1 Cor 8:6)Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:32) That's why they knew what it ment for him to claim to be “The Son Of God”, the Messiah.
Mark, what does “Messiah” mean anyway? Does it refer to “God Himself”? Or does it refer to one who was anointed BY God? Which of these does the word actually mean, Mark?Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:32) That never came into question until others came in and misrepresented him.
Who misrepresented him, and how? When did Jesus ever claim to be God Almighty that others could later “misrepresent” him? What scriptures teach you this?peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,11:56) Charles, Jack, and Mark, I have asked each of you a “YES or NO” question in my responses to your posts. Along with your DIRECT answer to the simple question I've asked you each individually, I have one more very simple line of questioning I would like your DIRECT answers to:
Is Jesus Christ the Son OF God, or God Himself? Which answer is given by the scriptures? Which answer did Jesus himself teach us?
It is a simple question…………please answer it.
Hebrews 1:3. You asked for scripture, here it is-3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Powerful word being his spirit, as discussed, the inspiration of the scriptures.”Exact representation” should be self explanitory.This scripture should show that he was the Father manifested to us in flesh. “Exact”, “The Word made flesh”
Mike said:
Quote Unfortunately for you, that expression does not exist in any Greek mss. Even Trinitarian scholars point out that the Word could not possibly have been the “person of God”, because that scenario is ruled out by part b: “the Word was WITH God”.
What! You are really going off the deep end. You're saying that the expression “and the Word was God” is not in John 1:1?“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
You say that this is not in any of the Greek manuscripts? I can't believe it! You are wrong to say that Trinitarians say that part B rules out that the Word is God. They say that the Word was with God “face to face” meaning that He is God with God just as Eve was face to face with the Man as man with man. You are really losing it now Mike.
Quote Jack, can the BEING of God be WITH the BEING of God? YES or NO please?
For the thousandth time YES. I have said it a million times. Adam and Eve were two persons in one being.I said:
Quote Jesus was obviously using the “we” editorially when He suggested that the Jews worship the true God in pretense. He was not saying that He Himself worshiped in pretense nor that He Himself worshiped.
Mike replied:Quote What scripture tells you this, Jack? Because I can list scripture where Jesus says that our God is the same exact God as his God.
But His God is NOT His Lord. Christ has no Lord because He IS the Lord.Quote I can show you scripture where Jesus tells us who THE ONLY ONE to be worshipped is. I can show you boatloads of scriptures that support the fact that Jesus not only PRAYED TO HIS GOD, but also worshipped Him.
Christ does NOT pray to God now. He has been exalted to His former sovereignty. He Himself rules the universe now. And in His state of humiliation He honored His Father in the same way a Hebrew son honored his father. A Hebrew son did NOT “worship” his father. At the appointed time of the Father Jesus became the HEIR (owner of all things even you). This was after the manner of the Hebrew custom.Quote What scripture can you show me that makes John 4:22 an “editorial” statement?
I already explained it. Jesus said that the hour was coming when Samaritans and Jews would be “true” worshipers of God in spirit and in truth. So Jesus could not have been including himself personally when He said of the Jews “we know what we worship” because they still did not worship in spirit and in truth. Are you saying that Jesus was including Himself personally?Again, as an illustration I can say, “We Americans waste food” without implying that I personally waste food because I do not waste food.
Furthermore, if your understanding is correct, then why did the Samaritans believe in Him (Jesus)? And why did the Samaritans confess Jesus as “THE Savior of the world” as the result of her testimony (vss. 39-42)?
If the woman had your understanding of her encounter with Jesus, then her testimony would not have led her fellow Samaritans to confess Him as “THE Savior” as you confess not.
KJ
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,11:56) Mark, Is Jesus Christ the Son OF God, or God Himself? Which answer is given by the scriptures? Which answer did Jesus himself teach us?
Hebrews 1:3. You asked for scripture, here it is-3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Powerful word being his spirit, as discussed, the inspiration of the scriptures.”Exact representation” should be self explanitory.This scripture should show that he was the Father manifested to us in flesh. “Exact”, “The Word made flesh”
Very good, Mark. Thanks for the scripture. Now…………..let's read between the lines of it:“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory” – Mark, WHOSE glory is the Son the radiance OF?
“and the exact representation of his being” – Mark, is a representation the original? If I am the “exact representation” OF you, can I also BE you?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeangel @ Nov. 11 2011,12:56) Powerful word being his spirit, as discussed, the inspiration of the scriptures.
Hi Mark,You call Jesus word his spirit, yet you
refuse to believe God's word is the “HolySpirit”;
how do you account for your inconstancy in this regard?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
You are wrong to say that Trinitarians say that part B rules out that the Word is God. They say that the Word was with God “face to face” meaning that He is God with God…..
No, actually they say:
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)But we don't really need 25 Trinitarian scholars to tell us that the ONE Being of God cannot possibly be WITH the ONE Being of God, do we? It should be evident from the common sense our ONE God, the Father created us with.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Jack, can the BEING of God be WITH the BEING of God? YES or NO please?
For the thousandth time YES. I have said it a million times. Adam and Eve were two persons in one being.
Mark, pay close attention here. If you continue on the path you've begun, you too will soon be making completely asinine statements just like this in order to defend your flawed doctrine. Jack has gone as far as telling us that he is the SAME EXACT BEING as his own father – just to try and prove his point. Will you also go that far, Mark?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
But His God is NOT His Lord. Christ has no Lord because He IS the Lord.
Hmmmm………….. Then who exactly was Jesus talking to in this scripture?
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.Was Jesus speaking to himself? Why did he call himself “Father”?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
A Hebrew son did NOT “worship” his father.
So then, when Jesus worshipped HIS Father, he was actually worshipping his God, just like everyone else, right?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) What scripture can you show me that makes John 4:22 an “editorial” statement?
I already explained it.
I didn't ask for your “explanation”. I asked for a SCRIPTURE that tells us Jesus did NOT include himself in “WE worship what WE know”. Do you have a SCRIPTURE? Or just your “explanations”?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
Are you saying that Jesus was including Himself personally?
That's what the words actually say, so YES. Why would I try to understand it any differently? Jack, beings worship their God – that's just how it is. Jehovah is definitely the God OF Jesus, because even Jesus tells us this MANY times. So why would I ever assume that Jesus didn't worship his own God just like all good Christians are supposed to do?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 10 2011,20:08)
Furthermore, if your understanding is correct, then why did the Samaritans believe in Him (Jesus)? And why did the Samaritans confess Jesus as “THE Savior of the world” as the result of her testimony (vss. 39-42)?
I believe in Moses. Does that me he's God Almighty? And I also believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world that God sent to save us. This is all scriptural, but doesn't even come close to implying that Jesus is God Almighty.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 11 2011,13:31) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 11 2011,12:56) Powerful word being his spirit, as discussed, the inspiration of the scriptures.
Hi Mark,You call Jesus word his spirit, yet you
refuse to believe God's word is the “HolySpirit”;
how do you account for your inconstancy in this regard?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The three are one, but three. One in being. Only they have this reality. “holy spirit” is God's spirit, the same spirit Jesus said that he would leave us after he left, as to not leave us orphans. The pure, undefiled spirit of God was in Jesus and God the Father. Thats how Jesus could say they were one, and that was truth. The same was true when Jesus said to Phillip that when you saw him, you saw the Father as well.Truth spoken by God to us. Thats why every utterance by him recorded in the Gospels are as God speaking, and it is used as such. I believe him. Some don't, like the Jews, or, separate them with human comprehension. Peace.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,13:15) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,19:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2011,11:56) Mark, Is Jesus Christ the Son OF God, or God Himself? Which answer is given by the scriptures? Which answer did Jesus himself teach us?
Hebrews 1:3. You asked for scripture, here it is-3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Powerful word being his spirit, as discussed, the inspiration of the scriptures.”Exact representation” should be self explanitory.This scripture should show that he was the Father manifested to us in flesh. “Exact”, “The Word made flesh”
Very good, Mark. Thanks for the scripture. Now…………..let's read between the lines of it:“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory” – Mark, WHOSE glory is the Son the radiance OF?
“and the exact representation of his being” – Mark, is a representation the original? If I am the “exact representation” OF you, can I also BE you?
peace,
mike
Wrong implications. I've said this before. If I take Mikeboll, and your dna (the very code God gave you to make you you), and cloned you, and by the power of God made your exact spirit come into your clone, it would be you. God did that, by Jesus, so that all the scriptures would be fulfilled “they shall all be taught by God” etc. That is not possible for humans, but it was possible for God. Thats why he is the King of the Universe. That is why he is the savior. That is why God can say “there is no savior but me”, and Jesus saved us on the cross…………glory to him now and forever-Amen. Peace-MarkKing James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Yet I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no god but me: for there is no savior besides me.Jesus is the savior of the world! When you saw him you saw the Father! How can you , with that being truth in the Bible, recorded by the inspiration and reality of Jesus, seperate them? Are Jesus and God the Father one Mike -YES or NO?
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