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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2011,12:30) Hi Mark, We were in the middle of so many great points before the new server situation! I find it funny that you want to believe the word “beginning” in John 1:1 refers to “the beginning of eternity”, which is itself a contradiction in terms. And I find it odd that you don't consider yourself vain for believing this, but DO consider me vain for not believing it.
But let's start anew with this statement you just made:
Quote Jesus was with God in the beginning, and in the fullness of time was born to save me, and is now again part of God………. Mark, does God Almighty have a God of His own? YES or NO?
peace,
mike
You laid dowm the request that we discuss this one scripture at a time. I honored that. I chose John 1:1. I haven't even got past the first three words with you, and you break your own request. It is a rigged debate with a person who declares himself winner on his own. You bring out this one question which is a loaded question that I have not seen in the bible. Is Mikeboll's arm part of Mikeboll? Is Mikebolls spirit part of Mikeboll? What about his mind? If I cut off your arm, would it be you? If I clone you like they do now with your dna(your unique code of being physically), and by the power of God put your spirit in it, would it not be the same as you? It would be two different but the same, Like Jesus. Now what if you knew from scripture that it was part of you from the very beginning? You havent proven to me that it doesn't mean the very beginning, and scripture tells me it is, as well as my heart. That is what I trust………. “Before Abraham came to be, I AM” Peace-MarkQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2011,04:45) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 16 2011,02:38) Jesus in the above scriptures, FIRST HE USED THE MODE “I SEND”,AND THEN HE USED THE MODE “YOU WILL PUT” to indicate that He sent them in the past.
Let me get this straight: You think the words “YOU WILL PUT THEM TO DEATH” refer to prophets that had ALREADY BEEN PUT TO DEATH in the past? Why?Quote (carmel @ Oct. 16 2011,02:38) Therefore I have every reason to belief that Jesus meant that He sent the prophets as God Himself,since all was created in Him,with Him,and for Him!
You have every PERSONAL reason to believe this – but no SCRIPTURAL reason whatsoever.Face it Charles, you WANT Jesus to BE the God he is the SON OF so badly that you read your own personal wishes into the scriptures.
Did you even read the passage in 1 Cor 12 that I listed? Jesus was talking about sending his disciples into the world just like GOD sent HIM into the world. (John 17:18)
Or have you forgotten that Jesus himself was also a prophet OF GOD?
Hi Mike,I needed this gap,for a change.
Quote Let me get this straight: You think the words “YOU WILL PUT THEM TO DEATH” refer to prophets that had ALREADY BEEN PUT TO DEATH in the past? Why? Mike you should know better ,that you can't just chop off a piece from a sentence and define it on its own,because the meaning of the sentence depends on its context.
Read again and define it as a whole please.
Quote Jesus in the above scriptures, FIRST HE USED THE MODE “I SEND”,AND THEN HE USED THE MODE “YOU WILL PUT” to indicate that He sent them in the past. Jesus used the present tense not the future tense,and this is the vital point in order to establish the whole meaning of the sentence.
Why, since according to you He was referring to the future,and in the same time, He used the present tense,and not the proper future tense?
Also the tense WILL is not used for the future tense only especially the way it is used in this sentence,but I rather leave it to you to comment first!
Quote Or have you forgotten that Jesus himself was also a prophet OF GOD? No Mike I didn't forget that He was a prophet.
Is that how you believe in Jesus since you mentioned A PROPHET, OUT OF ALL THOSE TITLES?
lUKE 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the LORD THEIR GOD.
17 And he shall go BEFORE HIM in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared FOR THE LORD.
To whom “BEFORE HIM ” and “FOR THE LORD” ARE referring?
Isn't it to the LORD THEIR GOD, since it is in the same context?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 27 2011,05:19) You laid dowm the request that we discuss this one scripture at a time. I honored that. I chose John 1:1. I haven't even got past the first three words with you……………
Okay Mark……………calm down.Let's go ahead and “get past” those first three words then, shall we?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God………..”
Right off the bat, we know that the Word couldn't possibly have BEEN God – because the Word was WITH God. And since we agree that the Word was Jesus, and we both know that Jesus is the Son OF God, we have even more proof that Jesus is not the God he was WITH in the beginning. And since the ONLY Being scripture ever claims to have been “from everlasting” is Jehovah (Psalm 90:2), then all this adds up to my first reason for believing that the words “in the beginning” in John 1:1 DON'T refer to “from eternity”.
Mark, the above is only my FIRST scriptural reason for believing the way I do about it. I also have about 6 other scriptures that lead me to believe this way. But in the effort of keeping this one scripture at a time, I will end my post here.
Now, do YOU have at least ONE scripture that clearly tells us Jesus WAS from everlasting before I move on to my SECOND scripture? Or is it just your “heart” that makes you believe the words “in the beginning” MUST refer to eternity?
peace,
mikeQuote (carmel @ Oct. 27 2011,14:01)
Jesus used the present tense not the future tense,and this is the vital point in order to establish the whole meaning of the sentence.Why, since according to you He was referring to the future,and in the same time, He used the present tense,and not the proper future tense?
Also the tense WILL is not used for the future tense only especially the way it is used in this sentence,but I rather leave it to you to comment first!
Charles, I'm lost here. It is YOU who made the claim that because Jesus sent out his disciples as prophets, he must be God Himself. And now you are trying to say something about the present/future tense that is supposed to be supporting your claim – but I'm not seeing it. Please expand on your thoughts so I know what you're claiming.Are you claiming that when Jesus said, “I [now] send you prophets, some of whom you WILL kill”, he was really saying, “I HAVE SENT you prophets, some of whom you KILLED IN THE PAST”?
Quote (carmel @ Oct. 27 2011,14:01) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Or have you forgotten that Jesus himself was also a prophet OF GOD? No Mike I didn't forget that He was a prophet.
A prophet OF WHOM, Charles?Quote (carmel @ Oct. 27 2011,14:01)
To whom “BEFORE HIM ” and “FOR THE LORD” ARE referring?Isn't it to the LORD THEIR GOD, since it is in the same context?
Luke 1:16 definitely refers to Jehovah. Verse 17 could refer to either Jesus or Jehovah as far as I can tell, but my guess is that 17 also refers to Jehovah. But if 17 did refer to Jesus, how exactly would that equate Jesus, who is often called “Lord”, with “the Lord their God” from verse 16?peace,
mikeAlpha & Omega
First & Last“Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
(Rev 1:7-8)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending,
the First and the Last.”
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:13 & 16)The Book of Revelation, which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, identifies Jesus as the The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last). It further identifies Him as The Almighty. Further testimony by Jesus, showing that the title, The First & The Last belongs to Him is found in:
– – ” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.”
(Rev 1:17-18)
– – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, says these things:-”
(Rev 2:8)
It is Jesus Christ, Himself, who reveals that He is the First & the Last of Holy Scripture. Since the Bible is one continual work stretching from Genesis to Revelation, it is clear that this title belongs to Jesus, and no other. There can only be one who is the First and one who is the LastWe also find the following statements concerning the First & the Last in the Holy Bible:
– – “Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.”
(Isa 41:4)
– – “So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.”
(Isa 44:6)
– – “Listen to me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”
(Isa 48:12-13)
Isaiah, inspired by God, calls the First & the Last, Jehovah, Jehovah of Hosts, the Redeemer, and God (meaning the God of Israel). This further biblical evidence along with those already discussed in Jesus – God & Jesus – the Creator, provide overwhelming Testimony from Holy Scripture that Jesus is indeed God Almighty & Eternal.Of course, I copied this from somewhere else, but it is in line with what I believe. Jesus was the human manifestation of God, sent to die for us, for our redemption. While on earth, he lived perfectly in giving all glory to God. All authority and power on earth belongs to him, with the reverence due God. He is worthy. He is Life. He is the ONLY human to rule and be worshipped, because he came from and went back to God, and was truely made of and was God. FIRST is FIRST. not second. Peace and Love Mike-Mark
P.S. Raziel is a free spirit seemingly. I see him downtown on Sunday mornings, and he told me about heaven net being back. I haven't talked to him since.
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 28 2011,22:38) That was at least one scripture supporting that Jesus was from forever to forever. 
Hi Mark,What about this one…
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Do you know how 'evil' was separated from God now; the [†] “Cross”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd, I love you man. But lookie-Jesus was perfect. Jesus was sinless. Jesus was holy. The cross he endured out of love for us, not to get rid of evil. I'd rather not go there. Peace-Mark
I do agree with the scripture you posted though, in that Jesus was from eternity, Thanks. Hope you are well and blessed-Mark
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,09:36) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 27 2011,05:19) You laid dowm the request that we discuss this one scripture at a time. I honored that. I chose John 1:1. I haven't even got past the first three words with you……………
Okay Mark……………calm down.Let's go ahead and “get past” those first three words then, shall we?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God………..”
Right off the bat, we know that the Word couldn't possibly have BEEN God – because the Word was WITH God. And since we agree that the Word was Jesus, and we both know that Jesus is the Son OF God, we have even more proof that Jesus is not the God he was WITH in the beginning. And since the ONLY Being scripture ever claims to have been “from everlasting” is Jehovah (Psalm 90:2), then all this adds up to my first reason for believing that the words “in the beginning” in John 1:1 DON'T refer to “from eternity”.
Mark, the above is only my FIRST scriptural reason for believing the way I do about it. I also have about 6 other scriptures that lead me to believe this way. But in the effort of keeping this one scripture at a time, I will end my post here.
Now, do YOU have at least ONE scripture that clearly tells us Jesus WAS from everlasting before I move on to my SECOND scripture? Or is it just your “heart” that makes you believe the words “in the beginning” MUST refer to eternity?
peace,
mike
Mike,Quote Now, do YOU have at least ONE scripture that clearly tells us Jesus WAS from everlasting before I move on to my SECOND scripture?
What would you say about this:KJV.Isaiah
9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 28 2011,23:13) Ed, I love you man. But lookie-Jesus was perfect. Jesus was sinless. Jesus was holy. The cross he endured out of love for us, not to get rid of evil. I'd rather not go there. Peace-Mark
Hi Mark,Did his dying on the cross not remove evil from you?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgYes Ed but I am not God, and that has not happened yet. While we are human, we cannot be what he was, in perfect physical and spiritual union with God, and made of literally God. The spirit of God in him and his son has never had evil in it. One day he will forgive my weak human nature. And that has not happened because there is still evil in me. At the judgement he will santify my soul, but as of yet I am still a lowly maggot of a man, imprisoned in this weak, ignorant, sinful, unfaithful, burden on God self. Thats why if I see him while in this human form I will die instantly. I do however, do what I believe is my best, and listen to my concious, and my heart. The good that is in me came from God, not me, and I long to get rid of the evil in me. “the Lord gave me a thorn in the side, an angel of Satan to beat me, to keep me from getting proud”. God NEVER had Evil in him. The evil is in Satan and us, not him. Glory to God, then, now, and forever. Peace Ed-Mark
Hi Mark,
Do you know who the “son of perdition” is, Mark?
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (carmel @ Oct. 28 2011,09:32) Mike, Quote Now, do YOU have at least ONE scripture that clearly tells us Jesus WAS from everlasting before I move on to my SECOND scripture? What would you say about this:
KJV.Isaiah
9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Hi Charles,What part of 9:6 teaches that Jesus was FROM everlasting?
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 28 2011,05:32) Alpha & Omega
First & Last“Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
(Rev 1:7-8)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending,
the First and the Last.”
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:13 & 16)The Book of Revelation, which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, identifies Jesus as the The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last). It further identifies Him as The Almighty. Further testimony by Jesus, showing that the title, The First & The Last belongs to Him is found in:
– – ” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.”
(Rev 1:17-18)
– – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, says these things:-”
(Rev 2:8)
It is Jesus Christ, Himself, who reveals that He is the First & the Last of Holy Scripture. Since the Bible is one continual work stretching from Genesis to Revelation, it is clear that this title belongs to Jesus, and no other. There can only be one who is the First and one who is the LastWe also find the following statements concerning the First & the Last in the Holy Bible:
– – “Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.”
(Isa 41:4)
– – “So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.”
(Isa 44:6)
– – “Listen to me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”
(Isa 48:12-13)
Isaiah, inspired by God, calls the First & the Last, Jehovah, Jehovah of Hosts, the Redeemer, and God (meaning the God of Israel). This further biblical evidence along with those already discussed in Jesus – God & Jesus – the Creator, provide overwhelming Testimony from Holy Scripture that Jesus is indeed God Almighty & Eternal.Of course, I copied this from somewhere else, but it is in line with what I believe. Jesus was the human manifestation of God, sent to die for us, for our redemption. While on earth, he lived perfectly in giving all glory to God. All authority and power on earth belongs to him, with the reverence due God. He is worthy. He is Life. He is the ONLY human to rule and be worshipped, because he came from and went back to God, and was truely made of and was God. FIRST is FIRST. not second. Peace and Love Mike-Mark
P.S. Raziel is a free spirit seemingly. I see him downtown on Sunday mornings, and he told me about heaven net being back. I haven't talked to him since.
So Jesus calls himself “the first and the last” in Revelation, and that is proof that he is God Almighty?What about the REST of scripture, Mark? How about Rev 1:1, where we are told that Jesus was relaying to John the revelation that his own GOD GAVE HIM?
What about Rev 5:6-7, where the Lamb takes a scroll FROM the hand of his God?
What about Rev 3:2, where Jesus mentions HIS OWN God? Or 3:12, where he mentions HIS OWN God FOUR TIMES in one verse? Or 3:14, where he claims to be the beginning of the creation…………….wait for it………….OF GOD?
Mark, my point is that I've listed only a very small part of the evidence contained – just in Revelation – that proves Jesus is someone OTHER THAN his own God. And I find it odd that you Trinitarians would put so much focus on “first and last”, when that phrase could refer to so many different things, none of which have to be “first and last to exist”.
Unless you have any supporting scriptures that tell us the phrase “first and last” absolutely refers to “first and last to exist”, then I'm afraid it is not proof, but only wishful thinking on your part. Not only that, but your understanding of that phrase contradicts many scriptures.
I, on the other hand, have MANY verses that speak of Jesus' origins, which go a long way in proving that the phrase “first and last” does NOT refer to “first and last to exist”.
Are you ready to discuss one of my verses? Or do you have another scripture that you suppose speaks of Jesus being from eternity?
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 28 2011,06:01) Hi Mark, What about this one…
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Ed,Time for you to move into the 21st century and get a newer translation – one that has the benefits of all the research and mss that have come AFTER the KJV was written.
Here are some newer Bibles for you to consider:
NET
As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.NIV ©
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”NLT ©
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village in Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.MSG ©
But you, Bethlehem, David's country, the runt of the litter–From you will come the leader who will shepherd-rule Israel. He'll be no upstart, no pretender. His family tree is ancient and distinguished.NRSV ©
But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.The fact is that the Hebrew words “yowm” and “qedem” don't refer to “eternity” or “everlasting”, but to “of old” and “ancient”.
So what Micah 5:2 REALLY says is that the ORIGINS (beginning) of Jesus was from A LONG TIME AGO. And since that “long time ago” was from Micah's perspective, this scripture goes a long way in proving Jesus' pre-existence, but does absolutely nothing in the way of suggesting Jesus is from eternity.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2011,06:50) Hi Mark, Do you know who the “son of perdition” is, Mark?
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Evil Priest, I mean Elvis Prestly. There has been many anti-christ, but to me he is by far the worst. He has turned the world against God with his revolution he started, in the guise of a christian. A Wolf in lambs clothing. His horrible abomination/ golden statue is in a Jerusalem Suburb,set up by his subjects, and he is considered “The King” more than God by most of the world IMO. John Lennon openly said one time that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ. We will find out soon enough, today would be good with me……. Peace
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