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It seems YOU are stating that “In the beginning” in John 1:1 MUST refer to “from eternity”. My point was that unless the earth was also created “from eternity”, then the words “in the beginning” don't necessarily have to refer to “from the first moment”.
In other words, the “In the beginning” of John 1:1 could refer to Jesus being with God 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to the 1000th power years AFTER God had already existed ALONE.
Do you understand?
Quote 5 For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1. Mark, for “US”, how many Gods are there?
2. Who is that God identified as?
1- 1= God=The Father AND his Son, who the Universe was created through. One in being because they have the same spirit. Three but one God. The LORD is one.
2- Refer to #1.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2011,12:59) It seems YOU are stating that “In the beginning” in John 1:1 MUST refer to “from eternity”. My point was that unless the earth was also created “from eternity”, then the words “in the beginning” don't necessarily have to refer to “from the first moment”. In other words, the “In the beginning” of John 1:1 could refer to Jesus being with God 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to the 1000th power years AFTER God had already existed ALONE.
Do you understand?
Still-“don't necessarily have to” isn't a answer. Also “could refer to Jesus being with” doesn't answer it. You say AFTER God existed, which doesn't answer the question of what was in the beginning, forever ago. There was a beginning.All, all of this talk about 'how many Gods'.
My son said “Theres a new toy that can read your mind” I said “Read your mind? hmm. Theres only one that can your mind, thats God”. Then I thought … “and the son, and the spirit”…. so, it's all God?
As people have said, God is a Title. But theres only three who work through us. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. When Jesus went to heaven after being raised from the dead he said (Read carefully and think):
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
A little while, and you shall not see me: and again, a little while, and you shall see me, because I go to the Father.
shimmer
tell me ;
why is it righteousness ;Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more;
why is it called the comforter ? and how will it do what Christ says it will do ??;;the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
how shall the spirit of truth glorify Christ ??He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
how come is it true what Christ says??;;All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
how come they could not bear then ??;;I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now.
those are my questions
Terra, here are your questions.
Quote why is it righteousness Jesus said “Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more”
So it cannot be the son can it? The son goes to the Father.
The Holy Spirit proved that we all are guilty, in need of rescueing. And proved that Jesus was the Christ.
Quote why is it called the comforter ? and how will it do what Christ says it will do ?? John 14:16 “
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever (Greek – — to the age)”As Christ went to Heaven to be with his Father, the Spirit was sent. It comforts, leads, guides, teaches, advises, strengthens, defends, gives gifts, etc to us, in the absence of the son.
Quote how shall the spirit of truth glorify Christ ?? He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you……… how come is it true what Christ says?? All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you. Well, though Christ was present only in certain places on earth, the Spirit is omnipresent. So through the guidance and gifts of the Holy Spirit, the word was spread throughout the world.
Quote how come they could not bear then ??;;I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. They had enough to bear with Christs upcoming passion, death, and resurrection. But Jesus said (John 16:20) “Verily, verily, I say unto you, That you shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and you shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy”.
I hope that answers your questions adequately.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 12 2011,16:25) shimmer
yes you did ,except for ;how shall the holy spirit glorify Christ ??
Terra,http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/7764/7764c.htm
The Son seeks not His own glory: the Father glorifies Him in heaven, the Spirit glorifies Him in our hearts.
Knowing Christ after the flesh: must come to an end, must make way for knowing Him in the power of the Spirit.
It is only the Spirit can glorify Christ: we must give up and cast away the old way of knowing.
We must know Christ no more after the flesh. 'The Spirit shall glorify me.'
This rending of the veil, this Enthronement of Jesus as the Glorified One in the heart, is not always with the sound of trumpet and shouting.
It may be thus at times, and with some, but in other cases it takes place amid the deep awe and trembling of a stillness where not a sound is heard.
Zion's King comes, meek and lowly,with the Kingdom to the poor in spirit.
Without form or comeliness He enters in, and, when thought and feeling fail, the Holy Spirit glorifies Him to the faith that sees not but believes.
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 13 2011,01:46) Sorry about my light font hah, I hope this is better.
shimmerthe glory of God ,is that what the spirit had foretold in the past and came trough by all the acts that Christ did,and so God as been found true in all his words,
the glory of Christ is to be found true as to the role he played in the great plan of his father ,
the glory of the apostles was to be found true in their action by following the directives of Christ ,
and so it is with all who believes in Christ
and so all glory comes from God and goes to God
Pierre
Also- these two statements-
Quote In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Notice the past tense word “created”. If your understanding of “in the beginning” was correct, then the earth had ALREADY BEEN created from eternity. Because it doesn't say, “In the beginning, God STARTED TO CREATE…..”, it says CREATED. That means the earth was already a created thing “in the beginning”.and
Quote We know that he had glory alongside his God before the earth was created. '
Are directly contradictory. Because in relation to Jn1:1, “the earth was already a created thing “in the beginning”(what you said), and John 1:3- ” 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
But you gave the correct answer when you said -“I honestly don't know, Mark. “, then gave another contradiction in saying,'”I only know that God ALONE created everything, and He chose to do that THROUGH His only begotten Son – whatever that means.”
ALONE means without any other, right? Then how can it be ALONE and THROUGH someone ELSE??
Lastly, you said, “The Spirit is a part OF God, and therefore existed from eternity along with God.”
Your on to something here. Now we just need to state what is ment by “The Alpha and the Omega”, “The beginning and the end”, and what the GENISIS 1:1 meaning of “the beginning” is and we can pursue on further into John 1. The beginning before anything, before what the scientist believe was “the big bang”. Before our sun even existed. Peace and Love, Mark
Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 12 2011,17:31) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 12 2011,16:25) shimmer
yes you did ,except for ;how shall the holy spirit glorify Christ ??
Terra,http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/7764/7764c.htm
The Son seeks not His own glory: the Father glorifies Him in heaven, the Spirit glorifies Him in our hearts.
Knowing Christ after the flesh: must come to an end, must make way for knowing Him in the power of the Spirit.
It is only the Spirit can glorify Christ: we must give up and cast away the old way of knowing.
We must know Christ no more after the flesh. 'The Spirit shall glorify me.'
This rending of the veil, this Enthronement of Jesus as the Glorified One in the heart, is not always with the sound of trumpet and shouting.
It may be thus at times, and with some, but in other cases it takes place amid the deep awe and trembling of a stillness where not a sound is heard.
Zion's King comes, meek and lowly,with the Kingdom to the poor in spirit.
Without form or comeliness He enters in, and, when thought and feeling fail, the Holy Spirit glorifies Him to the faith that sees not but believes.
Hey Shimmer,I like this part-
Quote Zion's King comes, meek and lowly,with the Kingdom to the poor in spirit. Without form or comeliness He enters in, and, when thought and feeling fail, the Holy Spirit glorifies Him to the faith that sees not but believes.
Back to topIt is what I believe. I also thought about what you told me your Mom believes a long time ago. I have to say I think the same way now. It says to hold out to the end, and not to lose faith, no matter how crazy the world and the church gets. Hold on until he gets here. Peace, hope you and your family are well and blessed- Mark
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2011,11:40) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33) Although He is another,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God.
The word “another” tells us there are TWO, not one.Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33) 1Corintians 3:23 And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
I'm glad you brought this scripture up, Charles. If the fact that we are OF Christ eliminates the possibility of us BEING Christ, then the fact that Christ is OF God also eliminates the possibility of him BEING God.Charles, do you realize the word “Christ” refers to the “anointed one OF God”?
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
In this scripture, if woman is not the man who is the head OF her, and man is not the Christ who is the head OF him, then Christ is also not the God who is the head OF him.Can you argue this truth WITHOUT relying on “there is no logic with God”?
Quote The word “another” tells us there are TWO, not one. John a husband and a father,realized that after all he was a transexual.
John changed his sex. and remained with his family.
John becam Mary.
His wife called him Johnmary still,
His children called him father still,
His mother called him my son Johnmary.
but his freinds called him Mary.
Now therefore John has ANOTHER identity.
John is another person.
John and Mary.or Johnmary
But still one person, still the same person, still the same one who was born as a boy, still the same one who was married and became a father.
everything is possible for men but for GOD IS NOT POSSIBLE?
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles.
Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2011,09:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2011,11:40) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33) Although He is another,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God.
The word “another” tells us there are TWO, not one.Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33) 1Corintians 3:23 And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
I'm glad you brought this scripture up, Charles. If the fact that we are OF Christ eliminates the possibility of us BEING Christ, then the fact that Christ is OF God also eliminates the possibility of him BEING God.Charles, do you realize the word “Christ” refers to the “anointed one OF God”?
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
In this scripture, if woman is not the man who is the head OF her, and man is not the Christ who is the head OF him, then Christ is also not the God who is the head OF him.Can you argue this truth WITHOUT relying on “there is no logic with God”?
Quote The word “another” tells us there are TWO, not one. John a husband and a father,realized that after all he was a transexual.
John changed his sex. and remained with his family.
John becam Mary.
His wife called him Johnmary still,
His children called him father still,
His mother called him my son Johnmary.
but his freinds called him Mary.
Now therefore John has ANOTHER identity.
John is another person.
John and Mary.or Johnmary
But still one person, still the same person, still the same one who was born as a boy, still the same one who was married and became a father.
everything is possible for men but for GOD IS NOT POSSIBLE?
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles.
surprise,surprise
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,10:42) Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,12:26) As devine He was one with the Father from eternity to eternity in every sense and power.
Hi Charles,Can you show me a scripture that says Christ has always existed? Because I can show you plenty that speak of his beginning.
Mike ,Quote Can you show me a scripture that says Christ has always existed? Because I can show you plenty that speak of his beginning. NIV Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,20:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2011,12:59) It seems YOU are stating that “In the beginning” in John 1:1 MUST refer to “from eternity”. My point was that unless the earth was also created “from eternity”, then the words “in the beginning” don't necessarily have to refer to “from the first moment”. In other words, the “In the beginning” of John 1:1 could refer to Jesus being with God 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to the 1000th power years AFTER God had already existed ALONE.
Do you understand?
Still-“don't necessarily have to” isn't a answer. Also “could refer to Jesus being with” doesn't answer it. You say AFTER God existed, which doesn't answer the question of what was in the beginning, forever ago. There was a beginning.
Okay Mark,Listen. God has ALWAYS existed. At some point in time, God begot a Son unto Himself. A person who is begotten by another is NOT a person who has always existed.
My point is that YOU assume the words “in the beginning” in John 1:1 refer to “FROM ETERNITY” – as in “the Word has ALWAYS been with God”. I am clarifying for you that those words DO NOT mean “from eternity”, for at some point, Jesus himself had a beginning.
If it was said “God was alone in the beginning”, then the words “in the beginning” most likely WOULD refer to “FROM ETERNITY”. But even then, they DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO.
When it is said that God created the earth “in the beginning”, the words “in the beginning” COULD refer to “FROM ETERNITY”, but they DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO. And we know from other scriptures that Jesus and the other morning stars sang for joy when God founded the earth. So, because of THAT CONTEXT, (along with other scriptures), we are assured that “in the beginning” in Genesis 1:1 does NOT refer to “FROM ETERNITY”.
Get it? At first reading, it COULD refer to “FROM ETERNITY”, but doesn't necessarily HAVE TO refer to “FROM ETERNITY”. And then we find out from other scriptures that it absolutely DOESN'T refer to “FROM ETERNITY”.
Same with John 1:1. The word “beginning” COULD refer to “FROM ETERNITY”, but we also know from scriptures like Gen 1:1 and John 15:27 that it DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO refer to “FROM ETERNITY”. And just like with Gen 1:1, we find out from other scriptures that “beginning” in John 1:1 absolutely DOESN'T refer to “FROM ETERNITY”, because Jesus hasn't existed from eternity. At one point, our God – who HAS existed from eternity – brought Jesus forth INTO existence.
Now do you understand what I'm saying? I'm saying that you can't base your scriptural understanding of Jesus' existence solely on the word “beginning” in John 1:1 – because “beginning” doesn't always have the same meaning, and doesn't necessarily have to refer to “FROM ETERNITY” – like you think it does in John 1:1. It DOESN'T.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,20:03) Quote 5 For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1. Mark, for “US”, how many Gods are there?
2. Who is that God identified as?
1- 1= God=The Father AND his Son, who the Universe was created through. One in being because they have the same spirit. Three but one God. The LORD is one.
2- Refer to #1.
Your answer is not according to the scripture I quoted, is it Mark?Let me rephrase the questions:
5 For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.1. Mark, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, how many Gods are there for “US”?
2. ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, who is that God identified as?
Please answer according to the scripture above, Mark.
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 12 2011,05:39) ALONE means without any other, right? Then how can it be ALONE and THROUGH someone ELSE??
Bill Gates ALONE created Microsoft. He ALONE gets all the credit and earns all the billions. BUT……………..Bill Gates, although creating Microsoft ALONE, did it THROUGH millions of other people.Tertullian said: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
How many are included in Tertullian's word “He” at the start of that quote? One, right? Otherwise he would have said, “THEY who create………..”, right?
I don't know what “through Jesus” means, Mark. I DO know that God alone created THROUGH His Son. If the Son WAS God, then it would mean that the “Father/Son God” created. And if that was the case, then WHO did THEY create THROUGH? For NO scripture says that God created THROUGH God.
It's better for you to just take the words of scripture as they are, accepting that we can't possibly know everything. And if the words of 1 Cor 8:6 say that all things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus, then apply the words of Tertullian, and recognize that 8:6 speaks of TWO – not ONE. And then apply the words of other scriptures to ascertain that only ONE of those TWO is “the only true God”, and “God of gods” and “God Most High”.
It was HE ALONE who created all things. And it was for His good pleasure that He chose to do that THROUGH the only begotten Son that He brought forth into existence.
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