Charles' Jesus is God Proof Texts

[Raziel]

It just hit me isn't Christianity judasim without christ?

[mikeboll64]

Okay Mark,

Then start DEFENDING:

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17)

You Ignore John 1:1 and do not realize that Jesus was with God in the beginning,

I absolutely DO believe that Jesus, (someone who is NOT God) was WITH God in the beginning.  God cannot be WITH God, Mark.  So for Jesus to have been WITH God in the beginning, he absolutely HAS TO BE someone OTHER THAN God.  (Defend away)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17)

and Everything else, universe complete, was created through THEM.

I believe what the scriptures say – that everything came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus.  (1 Cor 8:6)  I also agree with the church father Tertullian when he said:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.  Do YOU agree with this completely logical statement, Mark?  Do YOU agree with the scriptures that tell us all things came FROM God and THROUGH His Son Jesus?  (Defend away)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17)

You also don't give Jesus' own statement that when you see Him you see the Father any credit, making him out to be a liar or twisting and misinterpretating his words.

I don't discredit that statement at all.  I believe that Jesus is saying he is so much LIKE his Father who created him, that seeing the VISIBLE Jesus is VERY MUCH LIKE seeing the INVISIBLE God who created him.  (Col 1:15)

And that is also the only conclusion you can draw as well…………….UNLESS you seriously think Jesus IS the Father instead of the Son.  Well………….DO YOU think Jesus actually IS the Father, Mark?  (Defend away)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17)

You declare yourself differant from Thomas, wheras he says “My Lord and My God”, you say “you are not God”.

No, I say that Jesus is not the SAME God Most High who brought him forth into existence.  He absolutely IS a god, just as Satan is also the god of this world.  Paul even tells us there are many gods in heaven and on earth.  But none of those gods, INCLUDING Jesus, is THE God Most High.  None of them, INCLUDING Jesus, is the God OF gods.  That title belongs to the God OF Jesus alone.

The word “god” today carries a very different conotation than it did in Biblical times, Mark.  Even the Israelite judges were called gods.  Same with angels.  So Thomas calling Jesus a god doesn't make Jesus God MOST HIGH any more than Paul calling Satan a god makes Satan God MOST HIGH.  (Defend away)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17)

I also showed you scriptures, both out of the Old and New Testament, where Jesus and God are both the same, in being a Shepherd, in coming again etc.

And I told you that sharing titles WITH God Most High does not MAKE a person God Most High.  I showed you how Moses and David and Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes all have shared titles with God Most High.  Will you claim that ALL OF THEM are God Most High, Mark?

Mark, do you think it's realistic to believe that just because David and God are both called the “King of Israel”, David IS God?  Is is logical to think that sharing a title with someone makes you that someone?  (Defend away)

Mark, you'll notice that I accept as truth all of the scriptures you brought up.  I don't “change” the scriptures or “ignore” the scriptures.  I embrace every one of them as strongly as you do.  But STILL they don't say anything at all about the Son of God BEING the God he is the Son of.  You'll also notice that everything I've said in this post, I've already said the first time you brought these points up.  It is YOU who hasn't addressed my rebuttals or scripturally defended your original claims.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:28)

Ezekiel 34:11 “'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I MYSELF will search for my sheep and look after them. How in the world can Jesus not be the Shepherd?

Once again, David was ALSO called a shepherd of Israel.  Is HE also God?

You forget that Jehovah looked after HIS OWN sheep by SENDING a shepherd.  All you have to do is read down 12 more verses in Ezekiel 34, Mark:

Ez 34
23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

Do you know who “my servant David” refers to in this scripture?  It refers to Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the shepherd that God Almighty SENT to tend HIS sheep.  And Jesus will be PRINCE among us while JEHOVAH will be our God. So this can't possibly be Jesus talking about SENDING Jesus. Instead it is just like it sounds – God is speaking about SENDING Jesus (who is someone OTHER THAN the God who will SEND him).

Also compare:
John 17:6
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

We are GOD'S sheep, Mark.  He has given us over for Jesus to shepherd us until the following happens:

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus is shepherding God's sheep for a time.  Later, when Jesus has destroyed the enemies that HIS OWN God placed at his feet, then God will begin to shepherd us directly again.  (Mark, pay close attention to verse 27.  When it says “everything”, it does NOT include God Himself, who is the One who put everything under His Son in the first place.  Can't you see that God is ONE, and the Son He put everything under is someone completely DIFFERENT?)

Mark, why are you not pleased in placing Jesus exactly where the scriptures place him?  Can you not thank and honor and praise and bless the Son OF God for his willingness to empty himself and die for us – WITHOUT trying to turn him into the God who SENT him to die for us?  

I just don't get it.  Why, when all the scriptures speak of Jesus being the Son, servant, prophet, Lamb, and Priest OF God, would someone try to make him the God he is all these things OF?

Jesus himself tells us who our only true God is.  Jesus himself tells us who ALONE to worship and serve as God.  Mark, why do you call him “Lord”, and not do what he says?

(Defend your understanding of the Ezekiel scripture you posted in the light of the ones I added, please.)

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,09:27)

Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Jn 17:7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you Look what Jesus says Mark is this not confirm Eze 34;11 ??

Those are the scriptures my mind went to immediately too, Pierre (as you can see by my response).  This makes me feel good that the same Spirit leads us both my friend.  

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,09:27)

you came from afar ,I remember our discussions and how sure you where and yet find that truth lays with scriptures,but there is more to understand each time your eyes and heart sees more it open doors in more quantity than before each in need of an answer. so do not be to quick to say no but test with scriptures as God make it known to you.

That is good, kind advice from a friend and brother in Christ, Mark. I do hope you consider it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 10 2011,15:46)

It just hit me isn't Christianity judasim without christ?

Christianity is Judaism WITH Christ – in a nut shell. The Jews still await the Messiah's coming.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,12:26)

As devine He was one with the Father from eternity to eternity in every sense and power.

Hi Charles,

Can you show me a scripture that says Christ has always existed? Because I can show you plenty that speak of his beginning.

[Raziel]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,10:37)

Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 10 2011,15:46) It just hit me isn't Christianity judasim without christ? Christianity is Judaism WITH Christ – in a nut shell.  The Jews still await the Messiah's coming.

Most any way there is a branch called messianic that believe in Christ.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. How all Christians believe that within themselves with the power of the Holy Spirit abide the Father and the Son as whole God not as a fraction of God??

I want to know how Christians can take a statement that refers to Jesus and his Father as “WE” (as in TWO beings), and then come to the conclusion that only ONE is being spoken of.  

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

NOW MIKE WHICH BODY JESUS WAS REFERRING TO?? TO THE WON WHICH WAS CRUCIFIED,OR TO THE ONE WHICH WAS GLORIFIED??

The God OF Jesus prepared a flesh body for him to dwell in while on earth.  That body was later raised from the dead, and then transformed into the new, glorious body Jesus now has in heaven.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

SINCE YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS IN EXISTENCE,WHERE WAS HE MIKE, CONSIDERING THAT WE ARE REFERRING TO THE OLD TESTAMENT??

Where was he……………..WHEN?  What are you asking me?  He WAS beside the Father with his own glory, then emptied himself and was made flesh, then was raised back to the right hand of his Father and God.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

MIKE SCRIPTURES ALSO STATES THAT JESUS CLAIMS THAT HE WILL RAISE HIMSELF UP: JOHN 2:19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

I don't know why Jesus said this the way he did.  I do know that it matches this scripture:
John 10:18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

And this scripture makes it clear that Jesus is GRANTED authority from, and follows the COMMANDS of his own God.  There is also about seven differnent scriptures that tells us God raised Jesus from the dead.  It is never said that “God raised God”, or that “Jesus raised Jesus”.  It is only said that God raised Jesus”.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now, back to the point of the thread:  If Jesus is IN God, then Jesus isn't God Himself.  If anyone is IN, OF, FROM, or WITH someone, then they can't possibly BE that someone they are IN, OF, FROM, or WITH. I know Mike, your art of using words,but as I said those do not apply to God only to human terms.

And I know that weak “things are different for God” argument is all you have.  Don't forget that GOD is the One who gives us our knowledge, and God surely knows how we understand words like IN, OF, FROM and WITH.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

explain how all was created in Him,with Him, and for HIm,and to whom the word Him is referring?? to the Father or to the Son?

To which scripture do you refer? Some speak of Jesus, others God, and still others speak of both of them.

Quote

If the only Judge would be Jesus. If the only inheritor would be Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God!

Now you only have to show us where scripture says the ONLY inheritor and judge is Jesus.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

AT THE VERY END MIKE THERE WON'T BE RULERS OR SERVANTS BUT ALL IN ONE ALMIGHTY GOD:

Scripture disagrees with you, Charles. Jesus will have an everlasting rule from the everlasting throne of David.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Why do you base your understanding on only PART of the scriptures, Charles?  Do you not see the last part:  you are all CHILDREN OF the Most High?  We will remain CHILDREN OF God after the resurrection.  We will not BE God.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

Mike you have a soul within you right ? You also have a body? which one is you?? Or aren't they both you??

Sort of.  My body is simply a vessel that houses my soul and spirit on earth, but you can say it too is “ME”.  BUT………….my soul isn't the Father of my body, nor is my spirit the servant of my soul, nor is my body the priest of my spirit.  So your analogy falls way short of what you want it to prove.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 10 2011,14:12)

define: (a) how all these millions of christians from Jesus time up to now ate Jesus' body ,and drank Jesus blood,when Jesus is only a human being as you believe???

Define how they would have literally “ate his body” even if he was God.  It is metaphorical, Charles.

Listen Charles,  I answered every point in your post as a courtesy.  I told you from the beginning of this thread that I wanted to keep this thing ONE POINT AT A TIME, and I have since let it get out of hand.  The reason is that I have many other threads I follow, and if I have to spend three hours answering just ONE of your posts, I haven't enough time left for the other threads.

I will from now on keep my posts to only ONE point that I want you to address, and I ask that you do the same
.  I had this problem also with Worshipping Jesus on this site.  After two or three responses from each of us, we were submitting million word posts just to address all of the other person's points.

I'm giving you fair warning that I will now do with you what I ended up doing with Keith.  If your post contains many points, I will “cherry pick” the ONE point I WANT to address and address it ONLY from now on.  So…………..if there is a point that you think is especially good proof for your doctrine, make sure your post includes ONLY that ONE point.  Because if you bunch that point up with others, I will hand pick the one I want to address – quite possibly leaving your “important” one unanswered.

Now, I understand that your post was an attempt to answer points I made – so I'll take the blame for letting it get out of hand this time. But I also must nip this in the bud before WE end up submitting million word posts to each other.

If you want to address this post, then hand pick ONE of the subjects, and respond about that subject ONLY.  I'm sure we'll eventually get to all of them over and over again anyway.

Or, address all of it if you want. But chances are that I will only pick ONE of the points to re-address back to you.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,15:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2011,12:16) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 09 2011,19:05) Both sheperds came into being instantly,  One is just a part of the whole of the other.. They are one. So the Being of God Almighty sent “PART of Himself” to be a shepherd?  And then that “PART of Himself” prayed to and glorified and praised the “OTHER PART” of himself?  And then that “PART of Himself” died and was raised back to life by the “OTHER PART of Himself”?   Show me the scriptural words that teach this doctrine. Because He and only he, is perfect. While he was human, he acted perfectly, and as perfect man he showed us by example what to do and how to act (not that we are capable of living up to it).  Love, Mark

Mark,

Your response doesn't come close to actually addressing the point of my post. Please try again.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 10 2011,18:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,10:37) Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 10 2011,15:46) It just hit me isn't Christianity judasim without christ? Christianity is Judaism WITH Christ – in a nut shell.  The Jews still await the Messiah's coming. Most any way  there is a branch called messianic that believe in Christ.

That is interesting. Do you know what they call themselves?

[mikeboll64]

Oops, I just noticed you put “called messianic” in your post.

Is it “Messianic Jews” or something? I'd like to research their beliefs.

[terraricca]

Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 11 2011,18:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,10:37) Quote (Raziel @ Oct. 10 2011,15:46) It just hit me isn't Christianity judasim without christ? Christianity is Judaism WITH Christ – in a nut shell.  The Jews still await the Messiah's coming. Most any way  there is a branch called messianic that believe in Christ.

hi

are those the mixed Christian + Jews that came and formed the messianic Jews in the 1960 's

[carmel]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,09:52)

Okay Mark, Then start DEFENDING: Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) You Ignore John 1:1 and do not realize that Jesus was with God in the beginning, I absolutely DO believe that Jesus, (someone who is NOT God) was WITH God in the beginning.  God cannot be WITH God, Mark.  So for Jesus to have been WITH God in the beginning, he absolutely HAS TO BE someone OTHER THAN God.  (Defend away) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) and Everything else, universe complete, was created through THEM. I believe what the scriptures say – that everything came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus.  (1 Cor 8:6)  I also agree with the church father Tertullian when he said:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.  Do YOU agree with this completely logical statement, Mark?  Do YOU agree with the scriptures that tell us all things came FROM God and THROUGH His Son Jesus?  (Defend away) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) You also don't give Jesus' own statement that when you see Him you see the Father any credit, making him out to be a liar or twisting and misinterpretating his words. I don't discredit that statement at all.  I believe that Jesus is saying he is so much LIKE his Father who created him, that seeing the VISIBLE Jesus is VERY MUCH LIKE seeing the INVISIBLE God who created him.  (Col 1:15) And that is also the only conclusion you can draw as well…………….UNLESS you seriously think Jesus IS the Father instead of the Son.  Well………….DO YOU think Jesus actually IS the Father, Mark?  (Defend away) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) You declare yourself differant from Thomas, wheras he says “My Lord and My God”, you say “you are not God”. No, I say that Jesus is not the SAME God Most High who brought him forth into existence.  He absolutely IS a god, just as Satan is also the god of this world.  Paul even tells us there are many gods in heaven and on earth.  But none of those gods, INCLUDING Jesus, is THE God Most High.  None of them, INCLUDING Jesus, is the God OF gods.  That title belongs to the God OF Jesus alone. The word “god” today carries a very different conotation than it did in Biblical times, Mark.  Even the Israelite judges were called gods.  Same with angels.  So Thomas calling Jesus a god doesn't make Jesus God MOST HIGH any more than Paul calling Satan a god makes Satan God MOST HIGH.  (Defend away) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) I also showed you scriptures, both out of the Old and New Testament, where Jesus and God are both the same, in being a Shepherd, in coming again etc. And I told you that sharing titles WITH God Most High does not MAKE a person God Most High.  I showed you how Moses and David and Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes all have shared titles with God Most High.  Will you claim that ALL OF THEM are God Most High, Mark? Mark, do you think it's realistic to believe that just because David and God are both called the “King of Israel”, David IS God?  Is is logical to think that sharing a title with someone makes you that someone?  (Defend away) Mark, you'll notice that I accept as truth all of the scriptures you brought up.  I don't “change” the scriptures or “ignore” the scriptures.  I embrace every one of them as strongly as you do.  But STILL they don't say anything at all about the Son of God BEING the God he is the Son of.  You'll also notice that everything I've said in this post, I've already said the first time you brought these points up.  It is YOU who hasn't addressed my rebuttals or scripturally defended your original claims. peace, mike

Mike,

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Quote

b]He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.[/

Although He is another,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God.

Mr Obama is an ordinary man, and has his personal life.

The president of America is Mr Obama himself.

What Mr. Obama do in his personal life has nothing to do with the presidency,and vice versa. but actually it is the same person.

Now since even humans,can have more then one quality,state,honour,and being, and so on,why the title of God, since within our inteligence it is only that far we could reach God Almighty, it is not possible for Himself to be another but still remain the same one??

1Corintians 3:23  And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Here we have an example that Christ is another quality,state ,honour,being,for Godbut it is God Himself.

Now Mike,

using your worldly wisdom does the first born of every creature,means and it is a proof that Jesus was created?

If yes prove through your worldly wisdom how .

Then I will through my worldly wisdom prove also to show you that although Christ was the first born of every creatures,He was not created.

He was emanated as a spirit from the Father in order for God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit(this is vital)to creates all through His Son's spirit. without being created.

A substance? from the same substance?, and remain the same substance?.But for us filthy carnal, mortals and corrupted beings,never will be able to comprehend this substance as long as we live on earth.

John 1:5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Got it Mike that darkness is US and never we will be able to comprehend this Substance of Light.

Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

Charles

[mikeangel]

Quote

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 10 2011,05:17) You Ignore John 1:1 and do not realize that Jesus was with God in the beginning, I absolutely DO believe that Jesus, (someone who is NOT God) was WITH God in the beginning.  God cannot be WITH God, Mark.  So for Jesus to have been WITH God in the beginning, he absolutely HAS TO BE someone OTHER THAN God.  (Defend away)

Ok Mike, one at a time. I know before I type that no matter what I post, you will not agree. Your question is the reason that the early church fathers asserted that God was a trinity. Three separate parts but one God. I happen to agree with them kinda. I will not say that it is three persons, I do not know if the spirit is in man form like God, I will not claim to understand God like they or you do. But this is what I believe from what I read in the scripture :

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

First three words. In the beginning. IMO that is the same as saying “from the first moment”, ” the Alpha”, the BEGINNING. You seem to put the beginning before the beginning. As I understand it you think God came into being first , and them created Jesus to be with him. OK first question-Which one do you consider the beginning? And the spirit? you haven't said when the spirit came into being and why. Lets start here. Explain the beginning to me. When exactly did  the first part of God come into being in relation to anything else, and was that the beginning.When did the spirit come into existance and explain his part of God and his beginning too.. All the time between the beginning and his becoming human what form and function did Jesus have and what did he do in relation with the Father. As part of creating THROUGH him, what does that mean? What did Jesus do in creating the Universe?  We'll take this one step at a time.

[terraricca]

Charles

Quote

,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God.

this is your key , by this key and statement you have fulfilled Satan purpose,and placed men in charge to make God whatever men wants,

this is why the light of understanding of truth is running away from you,

so submit to God and be saved.

[carmel]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2011,23:13)

Charles Quote ,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God. this is your key , by this key and statement  you have fulfilled Satan purpose,and placed men in charge to make God whatever men wants, this is why the light of understanding of truth is running away from you, so submit to God and be saved.

Pierre,

I respect your maturity,and inteligence.

That's what I expected from you.

I would have more appreciated your confrontation through your belief using scriptures though!

peace and love in Jesus Christ

Charles

[terraricca]

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 12 2011,09:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2011,23:13) Charles Quote ,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God. this is your key , by this key and statement  you have fulfilled Satan purpose,and placed men in charge to make God whatever men wants, this is why the light of understanding of truth is running away from you, so submit to God and be saved. Pierre, I respect your maturity,and inteligence. That's what I expected from you. I would have more appreciated your confrontation through your belief using scriptures though! peace and love in Jesus Christ Charles

Charles

you must be out of your mind asking me to use scriptures to counter your views we out of scriptures ,”God has no logic “??

but God is the only true LOGIC there is,

it is men who is refusing to cope with his LOGIC ,of truth.

and you a men that called him knowledgeable in Gods word

witch one ? the one that is made to men acceptability ?

God does not take notice of men in general , except he take notice of the ones who love him and does what he says,

it is so common sense,if we see it from the truth of God not from our stupidity

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

Ok Mike, one at a time.

Agreed.  I realize it is usually me that starts the posts getting bigger by posting too much for you to answer to.  I will work on being succinct.  

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

First three words. In the beginning. IMO that is the same as saying “from the first moment”,

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Notice the past tense word “created”.  If your understanding of “in the beginning” was correct, then the earth had ALREADY BEEN created from eternity.  Because it doesn't say, “In the beginning, God STARTED TO CREATE…..”, it says CREATED.  That means the earth was already a created thing “in the beginning”.

In other words, I have as much reason to to claim the earth was from eternity as you do to claim Jesus was from eternity based on only the words “in the beginning”.

Also consider that “the beginning” has many different meanings in scripture, such as Jesus telling his 12, “you have been with me from the beginning“.

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

As I understand it you think God came into being first , and them created Jesus to be with him.

God didn't ever “come into being”, He has always existed.  But yes, I know that Jesus was the first creature ever created by his God.

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

And the spirit? you haven't said when the spirit came into being and why.

The Spirit is a part OF God, and therefore existed from eternity along with God.

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

All the time between the beginning and his becoming human what form and function did Jesus have and what did he do in relation with the Father.

I don't know.  He said he was the master craftsman at God's side.  And we know all things were created BY God THROUGH him.  We know that he had glory alongside his God before the earth was created.  Many scholars agree that Jesus was the angel of God that went before the Israelites.  We just don't have a lot of info regarding Jesus' pre-flesh activities.  

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 11 2011,04:55)

As part of creating THROUGH him, what does that mean? What did Jesus do in creating the Universe?

I honestly don't know, Mark.  I only know that God ALONE created everything, and He chose to do that THROUGH His only begotten Son – whatever that means.

I only have two questions for you, Mark:

5 For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1.  Mark, for “US”, how many Gods are there?

2.  Who is that God identified as?

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33)

Although He is another,since there's no logic with God,it is the same one God.

The word “another” tells us there are TWO, not one.

Quote (carmel @ Oct. 11 2011,00:33)

1Corintians 3:23  And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
I'm glad you brought this scripture up, Charles.  If the fact that we are OF Christ eliminates the possibility of us BEING Christ, then the fact that Christ is OF God also eliminates the possibility of him BEING God.

Charles, do you realize the word “Christ” refers to the “anointed one OF God”?

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
In this scripture, if woman is not the man who is the head OF her, and man is not the Christ who is the head OF him, then Christ is also not the God who is the head OF him.

Can you argue this truth WITHOUT relying on “there is no logic with God”?

[mikeangel]

Quote

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Notice the past tense word “created”.  If your understanding of “in the beginning” was correct, then the earth had ALREADY BEEN created from eternity.  Because it doesn't say, “In the beginning, God STARTED TO CREATE…..”, it says CREATED.  That means the earth was already a created thing “in the beginning”.

 Mike .  Back up…. What do you mean the earth was Already Created? Let's go slow. This planet hasn't been here forever. What do you mean “if” my understanding is right? God decides that not you. You or the Pope mean nothing compared to Wisdom. You can't possibly be telling me that the beginning is AFTER the world was created. EVERYTHING has a beginning, including matter, gravity, etc.etc. There could have been 1000 worlds come and go. 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to the 1000th power years ago. You haven't stated this correctly IMO. What was the beginning, and who existed? Rebut away-

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