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Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:52) Hi Devo!
Back soon.
No problem, take your time bro & please just go over what I mentioned without bias or preconceived opinion…no matter how long it takes.I believe you will agree eventually on this one at least if you give it the time it requires…just go over & over it.
We do have to be sure of what we speak after all, I am trying to help is all.
Cheers.
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:19) Hi Marty,
I believe that it is much more than simply a public confession. I believe that it is literally (spiritually) being born again into Gods kingdom as a child of God rather than of man. This is how the earliest church believed it and I believe how they believed.To be born again as a child of God does not mean that you are “safe and secure”, because not all make it, and not all go on to be also born of the spirit.
There is so much learning to do and growing that needs to be done, but I do believe that it is important.
I have only come to this understanding through this thread. I always believed in water baptism but never looked into it properly, and I have done that now.
Hi:Our salvation is by faith and not of works, and water baptism is an action or work demonstrating that we have believed with a repentant heart. Some, including myself, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, like Cornelius and his band, and others do not receive the Holy Spirit until after they are baptized in water. There are examples of this also in the scriptures.
Can someone be saved without being baptized in water? Apparently, the thief to whom Jesus promised that he would be with him in paradise was.
When I was first saved, I was full of zeal and I thought that someone could not be saved unless they were baptized in water, because that is what the Apostle Peter seemed to be saying, 1 Peter 3:20-21, but God showed me that someone can be saved on their deathbed if they believe with a repentant heart. I wanted to get them out of their sick bed and baptize them in water, but no, I am speaking all this through some personal experiences that God has put me through.
Also, there are those under the Law who were faithful who have not been baptized in water, but their sins have been forgiven and washed away by the blood of Jesus, and they will be raised from the dead unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church.
For these reasons, I believe that being born of water does not mean water baptism, but being born of of living water which is the word of God which has been sown in a person's heart. The scripture states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, and we are saved by faith, when we believe the gospel with a repentant heart.
Here are some scriptures which support my position on this:
Quote Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life
Quote Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Quote 1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
NIV
Quote Jam 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. Jam 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 20 2013,14:04) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,13:19) Hi Marty,
I believe that it is much more than simply a public confession. I believe that it is literally (spiritually) being born again into Gods kingdom as a child of God rather than of man. This is how the earliest church believed it and I believe how they believed.To be born again as a child of God does not mean that you are “safe and secure”, because not all make it, and not all go on to be also born of the spirit.
There is so much learning to do and growing that needs to be done, but I do believe that it is important.
I have only come to this understanding through this thread. I always believed in water baptism but never looked into it properly, and I have done that now.
Hi:Our salvation is by faith and not of works, and water baptism is an action or work demonstrating that we have believed with a repentant heart. Some, including myself, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, like Cornelius and his band, and others do not receive the Holy Spirit until after they are baptized in water. There are examples of this also in the scriptures.
Can someone be saved without being baptized in water? Apparently, the thief to whom Jesus promised that he would be with him in paradise was.
When I was first saved, I was full of zeal and I thought that someone could not be saved unless they were baptized in water, because that is what the Apostle Peter seemed to be saying, 1 Peter 3:20-21, but God showed me that someone can be saved on their deathbed if they believe with a repentant heart. I wanted to get them out of their sick bed and baptize them in water, but no, I am speaking all this through some personal experiences that God has put me through.
Also, there are those under the Law who were faithful who have not been baptized in water, but their sins have been forgiven and washed away by the blood of Jesus, and they will be raised from the dead unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church.
For these reasons, I believe that being born of water does not mean water baptism, but being born of of living water which is the word of God which has been sown in a person's heart. The scripture states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, and we are saved by faith, when we believe the gospel with a repentant heart.
Here are some scriptures which support my position on this:
Quote Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life
Quote Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Quote 1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
NIV
Quote Jam 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. Jam 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty…Nicely put brother.
But do not neglect our works.
The works we do are the RESULT of the indwelling Spirit, NOT our OWN works, but the works as a RESULT of that Spirit.
So the Spirit does the works THROUGH His followers.
And not of ourselves, not of our own glory, but the Spirits glory working through us.
“Let your good Deeds shine before men so God is glorified”
They go hand in hand, grace AND works.
The works are just the RESULT of that in dwelling Spirit.
James explains it better.God bless.
Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,08:41) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,11:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,01:09) 2besee, Quote Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of Jesus ChristThis verse is probably one of your favourites to use, and sometimes we DO have favourite scriptures to use to back up our arguments that we consider game enders, and I'd say that this is one of your big guns you were reserving whilst setting its sights on us…
But friend, would you think i were crazy if i told you that this has NOTHING to do with Water Baptism at all?
That you are seeing only what you want to see?Because I tell you straight, brotherly truth from me to you, THAT MESSAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER BAPTISM.
If you are willing to hear me, I will tell you what it is actually saying.
Up to you?Cheers.
Please proceed Devolution.BTW, I only looked at that verse properly the other day. So no, sorry, you are wrong with that.
Hi 2besee,I did say probably, but that's okay.
It is a favourite for some.
And if not understood properly, is often used as a argument supporting water baptism.
Let me explain:What happened before Peter was sent to Cornelius' house?
God showed him a vision of the unclean animals whose message was this:Acts 10:15 >And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God has cleansed, that call not thou common.
Now Peter still held the TRADITION of the Jews, and not Peter only, but all the Apostles & early Jewish disciples…that the Gentiles were unclean outsiders, and that the new covenant, like the first covenant, was for Israel ONLY.
God was showing him…no more of this mindset, the new covenant was for ALL nationalities.
Notice what Peter said when he first entered Cornelius' house and saw those gathered within?
Acts 10:28 >And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an UNLAWFUL thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So Peter came to understood the message after first being confused by the vision.
Now since this revelation was only revealed to Peter, none of the early Jewish disciples nor Apostles at this stage knew that God was calling the Gentiles also, that this gospel of Christ was not exclusively for the Jews like the first covenant was (with exception for those cases where outsiders settled in Israel and worshipped God by the old covenant, thus becoming adopted)
Now notice this:
Acts 10:23 >…….and certain BRETHREN from Joppa accompanied him.
Now keep this in mind:
2 Corinthians 13:1 >This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Remember, only Peter at this stage was shown the vision & understood it, sure, he could have told those disciples accompanying him, but they could still have been sceptical, Peter could be making it up as far as they'd be concerned.
To them, God was only for Israel, the chosen people, just as it had been for thousands of years.
So this was the reason Peter was accompanied by those brethren…WITNESSES.Now notice HOW Peter addressed those DISCIPLES after they witnessed the Holy Ghost fall upon those GENTILES, those UNCLEAN outsiders…
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Notice?
Can ANY man forbid
That my friend is a CHALLENGE.
Peter is testing their WITNESS, will they hold onto their age old TRADITION and still reject these Gentiles, or be true to the event and ACCEPT that mercy HAS been extended to the Gentiles too?
That is WHAT the Water baptism was about in this case, the water baptism itself was merely the symbolic ACT of ACCEPTANCE towards these Gentiles AIMED at those brethren who WITNESSED the event of whom were AMAZED that the Gentiles found Gods GRACE.
Peter was testing their WITNESS, water baptism was the SIGN of their (those brethren) ACCEPTANCE.
Who needs water baptism AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit?
So what happened when Peter returned to Jerusalem?
He needed to EXPLAIN why he kept company with GENTILES.
Because the Apsotles had heard what had happened (Acts 11:1)
And he even had to prepare his story what he would say before meeting up with those Apostles (Acts 11:4)
Because he was being challenged for seeing those Gentiles (Acts 11:2-3)And what did the Apostles say after hearing all this?
Acts 11:18 >When they heard these things, they held their peace, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
See?
This is what it was all about…
The Gentiles being accepted by God.
Water baptism was just the SYMBOLIC ACT used to show those brethrens ACCEPTANCE of what they had WITNESSED…that grace has been extended to the Gentiles too.So this had nothing to do with water baptism.
Please think about this.
I'm not tickling your ears.Cheers.
Devogood explanation I would not be able to explain it so well thank for it .
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,14:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,08:41) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,11:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,01:09) 2besee, Quote Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of Jesus ChristThis verse is probably one of your favourites to use, and sometimes we DO have favourite scriptures to use to back up our arguments that we consider game enders, and I'd say that this is one of your big guns you were reserving whilst setting its sights on us…
But friend, would you think i were crazy if i told you that this has NOTHING to do with Water Baptism at all?
That you are seeing only what you want to see?Because I tell you straight, brotherly truth from me to you, THAT MESSAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER BAPTISM.
If you are willing to hear me, I will tell you what it is actually saying.
Up to you?Cheers.
Please proceed Devolution.BTW, I only looked at that verse properly the other day. So no, sorry, you are wrong with that.
Hi 2besee,I did say probably, but that's okay.
It is a favourite for some.
And if not understood properly, is often used as a argument supporting water baptism.
Let me explain:What happened before Peter was sent to Cornelius' house?
God showed him a vision of the unclean animals whose message was this:Acts 10:15 >And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God has cleansed, that call not thou common.
Now Peter still held the TRADITION of the Jews, and not Peter only, but all the Apostles & early Jewish disciples…that the Gentiles were unclean outsiders, and that the new covenant, like the first covenant, was for Israel ONLY.
God was showing him…no more of this mindset, the new covenant was for ALL nationalities.
Notice what Peter said when he first entered Cornelius' house and saw those gathered within?
Acts 10:28 >And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an UNLAWFUL thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So Peter came to understood the message after first being confused by the vision.
Now since this revelation was only revealed to Peter, none of the early Jewish disciples nor Apostles at this stage knew that God was calling the Gentiles also, that this gospel of Christ was not exclusively for the Jews like the first covenant was (with exception for those cases where outsiders settled in Israel and worshipped God by the old covenant, thus becoming adopted)
Now notice this:
Acts 10:23 >…….and certain BRETHREN from Joppa accompanied him.
Now keep this in mind:
2 Corinthians 13:1 >This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Remember, only Peter at this stage was shown the vision & understood it, sure, he could have told those disciples accompanying him, but they could still have been sceptical, Peter could be making it up as far as they'd be concerned.
To them, God was only for Israel, the chosen people, just as it had been for thousands of years.
So this was the reason Peter was accompanied by those brethren…WITNESSES.Now notice HOW Peter addressed those DISCIPLES after they witnessed the Holy Ghost fall upon those GENTILES, those UNCLEAN outsiders…
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Notice?
Can ANY man forbid
That my friend is a CHALLENGE.
Peter is testing their WITNESS, will they hold onto their age old TRADITION and still reject these Gentiles, or be true to the event and ACCEPT that mercy HAS been extended to the Gentiles too?
That is WHAT the Water baptism was about in this case, the water baptism itself was merely the symbolic ACT of ACCEPTANCE towards these Gentiles AIMED at those brethren who WITNESSED the event of whom were AMAZED that the Gentiles found Gods GRACE.
Peter was testing their WITNESS, water baptism was the SIGN of their (those brethren) ACCEPTANCE.
Who needs water baptism AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit?
So what happened when Peter returned to Jerusalem?
He needed to EXPLAIN why he kept company with GENTILES.
Because the Apsotles had heard what had happened (Acts 11:1)
And he even had to prepare his story what he would say before meeting up with those Apostles (Acts 11:4)
Because he was being challenged for seeing those Gentiles (Acts 11:2-3)And what did the Apostles say after hearing all this?
Acts 11:18 >When they heard these things, they held their peace, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
See?
This is what it was all about…
The Gentiles being accepted by God.
Water baptism was just the SYMBOLIC ACT used to show those brethrens ACCEPTANCE of what they had WITNESSED…that grace has been extended to the Gentiles too.So this had nothing to do with water baptism.
Please think about this.
I'm not tickling your ears.Cheers.
Devogood explanation I would not be able to explain it so well thank for it .
Why thank you Pierre,I appreciate it.
And as you know, the glory is Gods, I'm too simple to work that out for myself!!
And since you agree, then God showed you too…not me.But thanks again bro.
God bless.
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,08:26) Hi T,
All of the scriptures that you have given us, above, are to do with circumcision, not baptism.
Circumcision was a thing done to the flesh, but it was the heart that was to be, instead, circumcised.You said:
Quote it is all about live according to God's will and not according to the will of men or the flesh, Yes.
So if God commands us to be baptised in water for the forgiveness of our sins, why then are you not obeying God, if you state that obedience is the key?Quote no water baptism ,folklore , According to you.
2beeQuote So if God commands us to be baptised in water for the forgiveness of our sins, why then are you not obeying God, if you state that obedience is the key? sorry sister I do not live on “IF'S “
Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,09:17) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,14:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,08:41) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,11:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,01:09) 2besee, Quote Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of Jesus ChristThis verse is probably one of your favourites to use, and sometimes we DO have favourite scriptures to use to back up our arguments that we consider game enders, and I'd say that this is one of your big guns you were reserving whilst setting its sights on us…
But friend, would you think i were crazy if i told you that this has NOTHING to do with Water Baptism at all?
That you are seeing only what you want to see?Because I tell you straight, brotherly truth from me to you, THAT MESSAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER BAPTISM.
If you are willing to hear me, I will tell you what it is actually saying.
Up to you?Cheers.
Please proceed Devolution.BTW, I only looked at that verse properly the other day. So no, sorry, you are wrong with that.
Hi 2besee,I did say probably, but that's okay.
It is a favourite for some.
And if not understood properly, is often used as a argument supporting water baptism.
Let me explain:What happened before Peter was sent to Cornelius' house?
God showed him a vision of the unclean animals whose message was this:Acts 10:15 >And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God has cleansed, that call not thou common.
Now Peter still held the TRADITION of the Jews, and not Peter only, but all the Apostles & early Jewish disciples…that the Gentiles were unclean outsiders, and that the new covenant, like the first covenant, was for Israel ONLY.
God was showing him…no more of this mindset, the new covenant was for ALL nationalities.
Notice what Peter said when he first entered Cornelius' house and saw those gathered within?
Acts 10:28 >And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an UNLAWFUL thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So Peter came to understood the message after first being confused by the vision.
Now since this revelation was only revealed to Peter, none of the early Jewish disciples nor Apostles at this stage knew that God was calling the Gentiles also, that this gospel of Christ was not exclusively for the Jews like the first covenant was (with exception for those cases where outsiders settled in Israel and worshipped God by the old covenant, thus becoming adopted)
Now notice this:
Acts 10:23 >…….and certain BRETHREN from Joppa accompanied him.
Now keep this in mind:
2 Corinthians 13:1 >This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Remember, only Peter at this stage was shown the vision & understood it, sure, he could have told those disciples accompanying him, but they could still have been sceptical, Peter could be making it up as far as they'd be concerned.
To them, God was only for Israel, the chosen people, just as it had been for thousands of years.
So this was the reason Peter was accompanied by those brethren…WITNESSES.Now notice HOW Peter addressed those DISCIPLES after they witnessed the Holy Ghost fall upon those GENTILES, those UNCLEAN outsiders…
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Notice?
Can ANY man forbid
That my friend is a CHALLENGE.
Peter is testing their WITNESS, will they hold onto their age old TRADITION and still reject these Gentiles, or be true to the event and ACCEPT that mercy HAS been extended to the Gentiles too?
That is WHAT the Water baptism was about in this case, the water baptism itself was merely the symbolic ACT of ACCEPTANCE towards these Gentiles AIMED at those brethren who WITNESSED the event of whom were AMAZED that the Gentiles found Gods GRACE.
Peter was testing their WITNESS, water baptism was the SIGN of their (those brethren) ACCEPTANCE.
Who needs water baptism AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit?
So what happened when Peter returned to Jerusalem?
He needed to EXPLAIN why he kept company with GENTILES.
Because the Apsotles had heard what had happened (Acts 11:1)
And he even had to prepare his story what he would say before meeting up with those Apostles (Acts 11:4)
Because he was being challenged for seeing those Gentiles (Acts 11:2-3)And what did the Apostles say after hearing all this?
Acts 11:18 >When they heard these things, they held their peace, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
See?
This is what it was all about…
The Gentiles being accepted by God.
Water baptism was just the SYMBOLIC ACT used to show those brethrens ACCEPTANCE of what they had WITNESSED…that grace has been extended to the Gentiles too.So this had nothing to do with water baptism.
Please think about this.
I'm not tickling your ears.Cheers.
Devogood explanation I would not be able to explain it so well thank for it .
Why thank you Pierre,I appreciate it.
And as you know, the glory is Gods, I'm too simple to work that out for myself!!
And since you agree, then God showed you too…not me.But thanks again bro.
God bless.
devomany times I have understanding but I can not place it on to words ,and this is what happen wen I read your comment you quoted it was one of those ,we all useful in our little ways ,but God his all for all of us .God bless
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 20 2013,08:07) Hi: Being born of water is not water baptism, but believers should be baptized in water. It is a public profession showing that we are united with him in his death, and burial, and his resurrection.
Quote Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
=10] Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.=/10]
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyagreed well said ,
Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,08:26) Hi T,
All of the scriptures that you have given us, above, are to do with circumcision, not baptism.
Circumcision was a thing done to the flesh, but it was the heart that was to be, instead, circumcised.You said:
Quote it is all about live according to God's will and not according to the will of men or the flesh, Yes.
So if God commands us to be baptised in water for the forgiveness of our sins, why then are you not obeying God, if you state that obedience is the key?Quote no water baptism ,folklore , According to you.
2beeQuote So if God commands us to be baptised in water for the forgiveness of our sins, why then are you not obeying God, if you state that obedience is the key? Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
this is not “IF “
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2013,16:20) 2bee Quote So if God commands us to be baptised in water for the forgiveness of our sins, why then are you not obeying God, if you state that obedience is the key? sorry sister I do not live on “IF'S “
Hi sister Terraricca, how are you tooHi Marty,
You said:
Can someone be saved without being baptized in water? Apparently, the thief to whom Jesus promised that he would be with him in paradise was.As I said to Wakeup, it does not say that the thief on the cross was not baptized in water. I think that people just assume that he was not baptized in water because he was a thief. But plenty of people have stolen something after being baptized in water. yet it does not stop them from, often many years later being convicted of sin and then receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You said:
Quote
When I was first saved, I was full of zeal and I thought that someone could not be saved unless they were baptized in water, because that is what the Apostle Peter seemed to be saying, 1 Peter 3:20-21, but God showed me that someone can be saved on their deathbed if they believe with a repentant heart. I wanted to get them out of their sick bed and baptize them in water, but no, I am speaking all this through some personal experiences that God has put me through.I agree whole heartedly with you on this Marty.
God knows the circumstances.Quote Also, there are those under the Law who were faithful who have not been baptized in water, but their sins have been forgiven and washed away by the blood of Jesus, and they will be raised from the dead unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. For these reasons, I believe that being born of water does not mean water baptism, but being born of of living water which is the word of God which has been sown in a person's heart. The scripture states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, and we are saved by faith, when we believe the gospel with a repentant heart.
Hmmmm…….
But then why the insistence to be water baptized and the command to be and the early churches belief that it is to be born again. I understand the being born again aspect to water baptism as did the early church, though i agree with you that in some circumstances, it may be different and yet again in other circumstances it could involve a loved one being baptized on their behalf, if led to perhaps.Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,15:41) Quote (2besee @ Jan. 20 2013,11:12) Quote (Devolution @ Jan. 20 2013,01:09) 2besee, Quote Acts 10:44-48
“While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of Jesus ChristThis verse is probably one of your favourites to use, and sometimes we DO have favourite scriptures to use to back up our arguments that we consider game enders, and I'd say that this is one of your big guns you were reserving whilst setting its sights on us…
But friend, would you think i were crazy if i told you that this has NOTHING to do with Water Baptism at all?
That you are seeing only what you want to see?Because I tell you straight, brotherly truth from me to you, THAT MESSAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER BAPTISM.
If you are willing to hear me, I will tell you what it is actually saying.
Up to you?Cheers.
Please proceed Devolution.BTW, I only looked at that verse properly the other day. So no, sorry, you are wrong with that.
Hi 2besee,I did say probably, but that's okay.
It is a favourite for some.
And if not understood properly, is often used as a argument supporting water baptism.
Let me explain:What happened before Peter was sent to Cornelius' house?
God showed him a vision of the unclean animals whose message was this:Acts 10:15 >And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God has cleansed, that call not thou common.
Now Peter still held the TRADITION of the Jews, and not Peter only, but all the Apostles & early Jewish disciples…that the Gentiles were unclean outsiders, and that the new covenant, like the first covenant, was for Israel ONLY.
God was showing him…no more of this mindset, the new covenant was for ALL nationalities.
Notice what Peter said when he first entered Cornelius' house and saw those gathered within?
Acts 10:28 >And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an UNLAWFUL thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation, but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
So Peter came to understood the message after first being confused by the vision.
Now since this revelation was only revealed to Peter, none of the early Jewish disciples nor Apostles at this stage knew that God was calling the Gentiles also, that this gospel of Christ was not exclusively for the Jews like the first covenant was (with exception for those cases where outsiders settled in Israel and worshipped God by the old covenant, thus becoming adopted)
Now notice this:
Acts 10:23 >…….and certain BRETHREN from Joppa accompanied him.
Now keep this in mind:
2 Corinthians 13:1 >This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Remember, only Peter at this stage was shown the vision & understood it, sure, he could have told those disciples accompanying him, but they could still have been sceptical, Peter could be making it up as far as they'd be concerned.
To them, God was only for Israel, the chosen people, just as it had been for thousands of years.
So this was the reason Peter was accompanied by those brethren…WITNESSES.Now notice HOW Peter addressed those DISCIPLES after they witnessed the Holy Ghost fall upon those GENTILES, those UNCLEAN outsiders…
“Can any one forbid water for baptising these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Notice?
Can ANY man forbid
That my friend is a CHALLENGE.
Peter is testing their WITNESS, will they hold onto their age old TRADITION and still reject these Gentiles, or be true to the event and ACCEPT that mercy HAS been extended to the Gentiles too?
That is WHAT the Water baptism was about in this case, the water baptism itself was merely the symbolic ACT of ACCEPTANCE towards these Gentiles AIMED at those brethren who WITNESSED the event of whom were AMAZED that the Gentiles found Gods GRACE.
Peter was testing their WITNESS, water baptism was the SIGN of their (those brethren) ACCEPTANCE.
Who needs water baptism AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit?
So what happened when Peter returned to Jerusalem?
He needed to EXPLAIN why he kept company with GENTILES.
Because the Apsotles had heard what had happened (Acts 11:1)
And he even had to prepare his story what he would say before meeting up with those Apostles (Acts 11:4)
Because he was being challenged for seeing those Gentiles (Acts 11:2-3)And what did the Apostles say after hearing all this?
Acts 11:18 >When they heard these things, they held their peace, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
See?
This is what it was all about…
The Gentiles being accepted by God.
Water baptism was just the SYMBOLIC ACT used to show those brethrens ACCEPTANCE of what they had WITNESSED…that grace has been extended to the Gentiles too.So this had nothing to do with water baptism.
Please think about this.
I'm not tickling your ears.Cheers.
Hi Devo.
Thanks for your patience…What if you had a friend who was lost to sin and could not even see it though they were searching the scriptures. What if they kept on doing that for year after year. What if you could offer them to be truly born again and you knew from experience that that could possibly be the only way that they would be set free, a way to wash away their sins once and for all?
To be born again not through man but from God,
To experience the same things that you have experienced, not something that they had yet experienced.Would it not be important to you? Well to me, it is important, especially in these end days.
I appreciate your explanation for that chapter, it is similar to how I see it, but you missed out a crucial part, that of when Peter commanded all of them who had received the Holy Spirit to be also baptized in Water, and Jesus said to Peter: “I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
And to the Disciples: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Have you been water baptized?
2bee
Quote And to the Disciples: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” show me in scriptures what did the apostles BIND OR LOOSE
I can only think of a few things ,but let see yours
Hi 2besee:
You said in response to one of my comments:
Quote Hmmmm…….
But then why the insistence to be water baptized and the command to be and the early churches belief that it is to be born again. I understand the being born again aspect to water baptism as did the early church, though i agree with you that in some circumstances, it may be different and yet again in other circumstances it could involve a loved one being baptized on their behalf, if led to perhaps.I want to make sure that you understand that relative to my comment to the faithful under the law of Moses, I was speaking of the Jews who were faithful under the law prior to the ministry of Jesus. Those who died in faith prior to his coming will be raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit. They as well as we are saved by faith. They were born of living water, the Word of God, and they died in faith, but were not baptized in water, and will recieve the Holy Spirit when the Lord comes for the church.
And so the scripture states:
Quote Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. And so, given the situation I have described relative to those who were not baptized in water, but will be saved, this scripture cannot be speaking of water baptism.
You say: the early church saw water baptism as being born again? One is born again when one believes the gospel with a repentant heart and receives the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an action or work demonstrating that one has believed with a repentant heart.
Love in Christ,l
MartyAlso, I do not believe that anyone can be baptized for anyone else. I cannot exercise faith in God's Word for anyone else. It is an individual matter between each person and God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 21 2013,06:09) Also, I do not believe that anyone can be baptized for anyone else. I cannot exercise faith in God's Word for anyone else. It is an individual matter between each person and God. Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyyes, I agree to that statement ,
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,07:36) 2bee Quote And to the Disciples: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” show me in scriptures what did the apostles BIND OR LOOSE
I can only think of a few things ,but let see yours
T, something that the Disciples bound appears to be water baptism,, but you will not see that because you are all…. what is that word – hyperdispensationilists.I have said all that I will say here in this thread.
Marty, I agree with some of what you said and I disagree with some of what you said.
Let us leave it at that.
God Bless.
Marty. we both believe in water baptism, so that is a good thing
even if, again, we don't see it exactly the same way, we agree on some things!Quote (2besee @ Jan. 22 2013,21:41) Marty. we both believe in water baptism, so that is a good thing even if, again, we don't see it exactly the same way, we agree on some things!
2Besee.Our first birth can only be when we came out of mothers belly. Not babtism.
There is one more birth; and that is the resurrection,no births in between.wakeup.
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