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Proclaimer. ….another what ? If Jesus said “that they might know “YOU” the “Only” true GOD” , it’s “obvious” he was not talking about himself being a “GOD” of anykind.
“ONLY” “TRUE” ……means “NO” OTHER IS A “TRUE” GOD.
“YOU”……..is alway directing the attintion toward someone else, other then the person speaking.
I can believe that this simple straightforward and clear statement by Jesus himself, even needs explaining, but it does show to the extent people go to deny even what JESUS himself said here.
Let’s back it up with what GOD the Father himself said, “you shall have “NO OTHER GOD” beside me”. If you people can’t get past this simple truth clearly written in all your bibles, what’s the point of even descussing anything with you?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Pilgrim…..Sorry for the point blank truth and sarcasm I used , but it gets perty descussing at times when people change what clear scriptures say, or ignore them to push their false teachings, but that’s what all trinitarians and false teachers do. They treat the solid clearly written scriptures, as if they were not in their bibles, and try to force the ignorant to believe their false teachings, which is against those clear scriptures. I know in my heart it does not please GOD the Father, nor Jesus Christ either, to see this happening. No one has “all” the truth but God the Father, but when we a presented with it and we are wrong we should repent, and adjust our misunderstandings. IMO
Maybe I was being a little to hard, on you, forgive me for that, God knows I have my own problems too.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Gene,
A dangerous ground would be that which the Scribes and Pharisees stood on who sat Moses’ seat. To them Jesus said, when they asked him ‘Are we blind also?’, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains”. You present yourself in posts as having a high degree of discernment and knowledge and more enlightened than other contributors and treat other contributors with contempt, berating them and railing at them. This did the Pharisees. Be careful Gene.
In relation to Numbers 23:19 the context is this. Balaam has been hired by Balak to curse Israel but instead Balaam is blessing them. To which Balak said unto Balaam, “What have you done unto me? I took you to curse my enemies, and, behold, you have blessed them altogether.” Balak keeps trying to get Balaam to change what he is doing I.e. to curse instead of bless. But the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth. So when Balaam took up his parable, he said “Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he has blessed; and I cannot reverse it”.
The contrast in the text is between the character, disposition and behaviour of God and that of man and the son of man. God cannot lie or repent like man can and does. The grammatical structure of the verse does not place a pause after man or son of man but reads “God is not a man that ….. nor the son of man that….”. It is a comparison. God unlike man had spoken and was going to accomplish his word to bless not curse. As Balaam said “How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?” Numbers 23:8
This is not a proof text to state God cannot become man. I know you don’t believe John 1:1-18 teaches that the Word is a being and was WITH God and IS God, who took on flesh and blood through the womb of Mary thereby becoming the second Man and the Son Of Man called Jesus Christ. I do believe these scriptures as written and that this and numerous other scriptures teach the the truth that the person Jesus was preexisted as God, came from heaven, became a man and accomplished the will of God in the redemption of mankind and the reconciliation of the world bringing many sons like him to glory. He will come again, judge all, and create new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness and God and the Lamb Jesus Christ are the temple and light of New Jerusalem.
This Jesus was of the same character, disposition and behaviour of God and he never lied or repented, always accomplishing what he was send to say and do.
Your own belief system teaches Jesus had the full measure of the Spirit who is God (God being Spirit) and holds to 2 Corinthians 5:19 “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”. So you do believe in God living on this earth in a man.
In the discussions I have held with you so far I have found that you invariably do not read scripture within its context, nor give due regard to the meaning of the text under discussion, nor allow the plain words of scripture to mean and say what they are saying, instead seem focussed on striving about words and have an interpretation of all scripture based on a particular starting theological position. Then when you seem to get in a corner you come up with fanciful and incorrect explanations.
I would have hoped for a better approach from you.
Pilgram……So, according to you we must change the written word to comply to our own belifes system, so when we read , “God is “NOT” a man”, nor a “Son of man”, we need to change the text to comply with your “private” inturpitions, because some how God was not “really” comparing himself to man, right?. I see you are give liberty to change the text and hince the context to make them say what we want them to say. That is exactly what you are doing, make scriptures say what you want them to say. So you would have us believe God did not say he was “NOT” a man, nor a “Son of man”, are we to remove those words from our scriptures, or just remove them from our minds, as you have done it seems?
So please tell us, about the context Jesus was addressing when he said this, “that the might know “YOU”, the “ONLY” TRUE God”. did I get that wrong also? And what about this scripture, “but unto us there is but “ONE” God and “ONE” mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus Christ, did i get that one wrong too?, This is not even to mention GOD the Father himself commadmeded us clearly, “you shall have “NO” other GOD besides me”. Do I have that wrong also? Did Jesus keep the commandments of his God?, if you believe he did, then he had NO OTHER GOD, BESIDES “the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”.
Tell us in what way do we have this context wrong , “go and tell them I am going to my Father and your Father, ‘MY’ GOD and “YOUR” GOD.”, do I have that wrong also, did I get that “context” wrong also.
But you say all these word written to us are not true, but carry a different contexts right? So when Jesus said “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words, but the words of him who sent me”, he was lying also or we are taking it out of context also, right? Because he himself was the word of God “himself” . No matter how many scriptures say God the Father would give his rightious servants Jesus, the words to tell us, as Jodi brought out so many times here.
Truth is Pilgram, if anyone here has the context wrong, and is denying the true words of both Jesus and God the Father, as well as other scriptures, it’s you and those who hold to your false teachings., who are taking things written out of context, not those who truly believe scriptures as they are written. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Pilgrim, I realize you really don’t see it , but you are taking the exact same stand the Scribes and Pharisees were taking, they twisted up what Jesus was saying all the time, even say he was making himself out to be a God, when he never did, just as you people are saying right. You may have more likeness to them then you even begin to realize.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Dear oh dear Gene, how confused you are. You cannot even properly or correctly read other’s posts nor follow proper scriptural hermeneutics. What a shame.
Added to which your constant berating and castigating speaks loudly of what spirit you are of.
Further discussion with you is of no profit.
Proclaimer. ….another what ? If Jesus said “that they might know “YOU” the “Only” true GOD” , it’s “obvious” he was not talking about himself being a “GOD” of anykind.
“ONLY” “TRUE” ……means “NO” OTHER IS A “TRUE” GOD.
“YOU”……..is alway directing the attintion toward someone else, other then the person speaking.
I can believe that this simple straightforward and clear statement by Jesus himself, even needs explaining, but it does show to the extent people go to deny even what JESUS himself said here.
Let’s back it up with what GOD the Father himself said, “you shall have “NO OTHER GOD” beside me”. If you people can’t get past this simple truth clearly written in all your bibles, what’s the point of even descussing anything with you?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Are you suggesting I was teaching otherwise? If so, you need to pay attention. If not, then good.
Does 1 John 5:20 call Jesus the true God?
Praise, glory and honour be to Christ Jesus, “the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of his person”, “the Word of Life”, that “eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested“ in flesh and blood and was “seen and heard” and “looked upon” and was “touched”, the “Son of God” that has come “and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ.”
Amen “THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, and eternal life”. “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen”.
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Read this part slowly:
“And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ.”
The true one mentioned in this verse, has to be the Father. Why?
Because it clearly says, We are in HIM who is true, by being in HIS son.
Who is the son mentioned here? It is Jesus Christ.
Who is the one who is true that has a son called Jesus? Well that has to be the Father because Jesus never had a son did he? If you hold the view that Jesus is the one true God in this verse, then you have to conclude that Jesus has a son called Jesus because the one who is true has a son called Jesus according to the verse.
So by this very simple, clear, and reasonable reading of the text, we can see that the Father is the one who is true and we are in the Father because we are in HIS son. That is the only way you can read this verse.
Do you need further proof? Well look at John 17:3:
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.As you can see, the only true God is not Jesus Christ here either because the only true God is said to have sent Jesus Christ just like 1 John 5:20 says.
The next verse supports these two preceding verses and teaches that Jesus is not God, rather, that he was sent by God as confirmed in these two verses above.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.You have just been shown two or three witness verses that clearly state that God sent his son into the world and that this God who has a son is the only true God.
Hi Proclaimer,
You stated that the way you are interpreting 1 John 5:20 is the only way it can be read. This is apparently not so. The commentator Albert Barnes said this about that verse: “There has been much difference of opinion in regard to this important passage; whether it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, the immediate antecedent, or to a more remote antecedent – referring to God, as such.“
I believe this verse is stating Jesus Christ is the true God, and eternal life. I believe Albert Barnes provides a correct commentary on this verse, which I am sure you can read for yourself without the need for me to paste here. It seems clear to me syntax wise, that the ‘This’ in the last sentence of the verse relates to the last one spoken of in the preceding sentence, namely Jesus Christ. Incidentally I don’t read the word “true” as you do as it can correctly be translated “genuine” and therefore opposed to “not genuine” (see comments below).
As regards John 17:3 we need to understand Jesus was speaking as the new Man, the representative Man, as a son to the Father, the one who is the genuine God and not one of the gods of the nations “which by nature are no gods ”. When the Lord responded to the Devil’s temptations He always answered as Man “It is written Man…(etc)”. Jesus was redeeming what had been lost in Adam. He fulfilled all righteousness by addressing the Father correctly as the only true/genuine God I.e. as the one who is truly (by nature) to be worshipped as God. This comes out in the rest of that chapter for he desires those He prays for to have the same unity/oneness and access to God as He had as Man.
Having said that, Jesus is not excluding himself from being divine or God. We note on the contrary that Jesus also requested “Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world came to be.” This is not the glory of being the word as in the MIND and PLAN of God but the person who is THE WORD which was WITH God and IS God. Christ here acknowledges his divinity, that existence “in the form of God”, that equality with God, which he did not grasp at when He humbled himself.
The “Lord from heaven” had finished the work given him by the Father and was returning home. In John 13 we are told “Yeshua knew that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come FROM God and was returning to God.” (John 13:3) I.e. the person going back is the same person who came. So John 17:3 is not a denial that Jesus is divine for John 17:5 confirms that divinity.
We should also not overlook the very important fact that in John 17 Eternal Life is the knowledge of BOTH (not just one) I.e. the knowledge of the Father who is truly/genuinely God AND Jesus Christ who the Father sent.
Proclaimer. …. the words speak for themselves, no matter what some scholar says, most all true scholars know it is talking about God the Father just as Jesus said it. The wide way that leads to destruction, is exactly the way you people believe, so you should have no trouble finding those that agree with you, nearly all so-called Christanity believes that way, but they are just lIke you , Only false teachers try to change those words, as they do others words also. Why do you feel you have to always add words to the texts you quote, your not clarifying anything, you are simply mudding the water.
I will take the word just as they are written, I don’t have to change what they say, just believe them. I don’t have to go through long explanations to try to make them say what in fact they are not saying. Those who have the Spirit of truth know for sure that their is “only ” one true God”, they are the “few”, who have found the narrow way, the straight gate, that leads to eternal life m the “few”.
You on the other hand feed those that are decieved with further words of deception, “the blind leading the blind” grouping at the wall, but never finding the real truth.
To me and Jesus know there is “ONLY” ONE “TRUE” GOD, and it is “NOT” the man JESUS. MY God and Jesus’ God is the same , and he is the “only” true God”. I bow my knee to Jesus Christ, “to” the glory “of” God the Father. you on the other hand bow your knees to Jesus as “your” God, Big difference!
But, You and others can try to change clearly written scriptures as much as you want and have all the false God’s you want, as all “IDOLATERS ” do, that’s you choice, but not mine.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Hi Proclaimer, Pilgrim, and All,
CAN ONE THROUGH SCRIPTURE AFFIRMS
WHAT GOD IS!
John17:3 Now this is ETERNAL LIFE: (DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST! NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS WRITTEN THAT
THE FATHER IS ETERNAL LIFE )
that they ( DEFINITELY THROUGH THE PROCESS OF ETERNAL LIFE, AGAIN JESUS CHRIST) may know you, (FATHER)
the only TRUE God, (SPIRIT) and Jesus Christ, (PHYSICALLY)
HOW MAY I ASK? whom you have sent. (PHYSICALLY ON EARTH)
THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR AFFIRMATION THAT THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS ONLY AFFIRMED AND KNOWN AS TURE BY
JESUS CHRIST! THE SON OF GOD, PRECISELY IN OUR TERMS!
ASSERTED HEREUNDER:
1 John5:19 We know that we are of God(MYSTERIOUS AND UNKNOWN) and the whole world is seated in wickedness.(SATANIC) 20And we know that the Son of God HAS COME. (MANIFESTED, TOUCHED AND HANDLED TO THE EXTENT THAT HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE KILLED,)
And he( THE MYSTERIOUS GOD) hath given us understanding that we may know
the TRUE God (MANIFESTED) and may be
(MANIFESTED) in his TRUE Son. (HENCE)
This is the TRUE God and LIFE ETERNAL.
JESUS CHRIST
FOUR TIMES THE WORD “TRUE” IS MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES,
AND JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED THAT
HE IS TRUTH ITSELF
Now I would like a very simple answer from anyone:
HOW WE ON EARTH ASSERT AND ACCEPT SOMETHING NO MATTER WHAT IT IS AS
TRUE
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel….. “MAN”, Talk about manipulating scriptures, and trying to make them say what in fact they do not even hint at, you are so far out there, your posts are nor event worth thinking about much less Reading. How did you ever come to those conclusions ?, it certainly WASN’T from our scriptures, nor the Spirit of truth EITHER. It seems to me, you haven’t even begun to understand the truth yet.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Gene, “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judges another?” (James 4:12)
Hi Carmel,
Eternal Life is that life that is everlasting and is with God. It is predominantly associated with Jesus Christ, who is the one through whom Eternal life comes, God gifting it to those who hear the voice of Jesus and receive Him. Jesus is the only one of whom it is said He is “that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us” (1 John 1:2). In John 1 this Life was in the WORD and is the light of mankind.
A well known verse is helpful here “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).
Christ is the key association with Eternal Life.
Jesus is the only one of whom it is said He is “that eternal life
In John 1 this Life was in the WORDHi Pilgrim, Good post!
Yes, the life that *WAS* Christ was in “The Word”, which is God’s “HolySpirit”.
Because God’s “HolySpirit” *IS* “The Word”, that was with God, and was God.So again, good post!
____________
God bless
Ed JNote: see links
Pilgrim…. You quote this, “for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not parish, but have everlasting life”. But the message of Jesus Christ the Man, was for us to hear the word of the Father , which he was delivering to us.
Then “you” say Christ is the “key” association with Eternal life”. That is true, he is associated with Eternal life, but that eternal life is from the Father, who is the one that “truly” gives us eternal life, even if it is through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus, a son of man.
I believe, that God the Father is the real “key” , why?, because it was “Him” who gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him “should” not parish, but have everlasting life. Did you notice the word ““should” not, so even if you believe in Jesus, that no guarantee now is it ?, espically if you believe in him, to the exclusion of, the “only” true God, the Father.
Jesus said this also, “many” shall come in my name, saying, “I am the Christ “, and “decieve many”, so saying Jesus is the Christ, can be DECIEVING, how much more when they say, he is the God that created everything?
The “son of man” Jesus Christ who is our lord, has alway been subservant, to the will of God the Father, and even now exists to the “glory of the Father” , both now and always will be. He spoke God the Fathers words unto and that is the true light, it is the words of God the Father, and it is Spirit, and life eternal.
Here is more scriptures they twist up for us,
1 Th 9-10…… For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how you turned to “GOD” from Idols, to serve the living and “true” God ; and to Wait for his Son from heaven , who he (God the Father, the ‘Only” true God) raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivers us from the wrath to come.
Now let them tell us again how Jesus is the “only” “true” God himself, who created everything, and how he somehow raised himself from the grave, because he was and is a “true” God instead of a true “son of man” and also a son of God, the exact same as all who have the Spirit are “now” sons of God and Son of man also.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Hi Pilgrim,
YOU: Eternal Life is that life that is everlasting and is with God.
ME: Why it is called eternal life?
How this eternal life functions?
When this eternal life commenced its function AD EXTRA, outside from God?
Humbly speaking allow me to be clear as much as I received it clear I believe from above.
God is eternal, and His work is also eternal. Whatever God creates, He creates by His endless infinitesimal spirits. His endless emanated spirits once they fulfill God’s will return back to the deity. In the beginning when God emanated these spirits, when the Holy Spirit, THE VOICE OF GOD, the kick start of all God’s work, pronounced the first-ever word Let there be light, by which light enlightened the entire infinite existence. Within these endless spirits was ENGRAFTED ONE SUBSTANCE in their heart ETERNALLY as a life source, and mediator/spirit between God and His creatures
“THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man TO BE, Precisely ETERNAL LIFE.
James 1:21 Wherefore, casting away all uncleanness and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive THE ENGRAFTED WORD, which is able to SAVE YOUR SOULS
God the Father is too powerful, too pure, and too sensitive to abide in His creatures. Thus God for the sake of the free will, safeguarding of His creatures, and directing His creatures in the process of creation, He established “THE WORD” Jesus, to be, by which He could communicate and most vital as a shield prevents total destruction by the Father by the least speck of imperfection caused by His creatures. By which act God through “THE WORD” maintains life to all creatures AT ALL COSTS, even if His creatures opt to become God’s enemies, simply as through “THE WORD” God would be in the position to work till all of His creatures no matter who and what return back to the Father, which is the most vital and fundamental for God in order to sustain Himself and maintain His full power incessantly. Whatever God creates and corrupts itself, it would eventually be restored in full and even in more glory. The pure fact that God created all BY “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, ETERNAL LIFE.
John6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:
that of all that he hath given me( BEFORE THE WORLD WAS) I should lose nothing;
but should raise it up AGAIN in the last day.
YOU: It is predominantly associated with Jesus Christ,(ME: IT IS HIS, HE DIED, FOR THE ETERNAL LIFE TO FUNCTION JESUS HAD TO DIE. THE FATHER COULD NOT DIE.)
John10:17Therefore doth the Father love me:
because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. ) who is the one through whom Eternal life comes,
God gifting it to those who hear the voice of Jesus and receive Him.
ME: Perfect Pilgrim HOW may I ask!
Since God created all by “THE WORD”, Jesus, the Son of Man, during the entire process of creation, Jesus left behind His infinitesimal spirit ENRAFTED in every creature, ETERNAL LIFE. Thus those who accept Jesus and hear His gospel, automatically Jesus within their heart acknowledges this in the least intention and desire.
Hebrews 4:12For the word of God (the actual word of God, JESUS) IS
living and effectual
and more piercing than any two-edged sword;
and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, ( A SHIELD BETWEEN THE SOULS AND SATAN)
of the joints also and the marrow: and is
a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight:
but all things are naked and open to HIS EYES,
to whom our speech is.
JESUS CHRIST
YOU: Jesus is the only one of whom it is said He is “that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us” (1 John 1:2). In John 1 this Life was in the WORD and is the light of mankind.
SIMPLY AS GOD A SPIRIT, WAS REJECTED BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR THE FATHER TO BE ACCEPTED AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, WAS ONLY
AS JESUS THE SON OF MAN MANIFESTED
THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel, you say God is to powerful, to pure, to sentivitive, to abide in his creatures. Let see what scripture really says,
Eph 4:6….‘one God and Father of “all”, who is above “all”, and through “all”, and “in” you all”.
Phi 2:13…“For it is God which works “in” you both to “will” and to do of “his” good pleasure”. (where is your so-called “free will” in that?)
1 Co 3:16…“know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells “in” you”?
2 Co 6:16…“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you “are” the Temple of the “living” God, as God has said , I will dwell “in” them, and walk “in” them; and I shall be their God and they shall be my people”
On and on it go’s showing how wrong you really are, God is Spirit and does indwell his creatures and his whole creation, or everything would simply cease to exist, He is the Life of all his creation, and that includes the Son of man, Jesus Christ also, just as Jesus said, “the son of man can do “nothing of himself” the Father who is “in” me “He” does the works. And again, God the Father was “in” (the man) Jesus, reconciling the world unto “himself”.
You and others here have Made Jesus you GOD and worship him as such, you have done exactly what “2ths2 ” says, you have did with Jesus, you have turned the “image” of him in to a God, cause that image to produce a “man of sin” , and don’t even realize it. Woe to all those who do that, they shall be rejected at his return , when he will say out of his own mouth “he is not the GOD, you have falsely made him out to be. Repent while there is still time Carmel, and quit continuing to decieve people.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
.
Of course Albert Barnes and many others will say this simply because they are Trinitarian.
Here’s a question. How do you get vinegar from a sponge? Easy. First soak the Sponge in vinegar. This is how the Trinity is derived from scripture. Soak the mind with the doctrine of the Trinity. Now all verses are read through that lense. There is a reason this doctrine came centuries later. Because it’s not explicitly taught in scripture, so it evolved over time by teachers who didn’t understand the difference between identity and mature.
Anyway, I will better answer your post when I’m back in front of my PC. I’m using my phone at the moment.
Proclaimer. …..Good post, that is exactly what trinitarians do. They have been feed a bunch of false teaching to the point they base their eternal salvation on it, sad. But there is still time for them to repent if God will give them the eyes to see and mind to understand truth.
Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene
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