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Hi GeneBalthrop,
Thankyou for your post. I can, as all Christians can, honestly see Jesus speaking the way He did as the Son Of Man, a human and believing God is ONE, ONE God and GOD is a Spirit, Invisible for “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” John 1:18. These are traditional Christian beliefs back to the Apostles. So Christians agree with such statements and scriptures. I do and all Christians believe in the scriptures which talk of the “seven spirits of God” which are before his throne (note not in Him who sits on the throne but before Him) (Revelation 1, 3, 5).
Hence when you argue in the way you do as if we don’t believe these things you miss the mark.
However, because of your view of the term “ONE”, and that Jesus was ONLY a man, and that he was a man of the seed of Adam, (who you wrongly call the second Adam instead of the second MAN, the Lord from heaven), it seems you are not honestly interpreting scripture and scriptural statements. I will give you a few examples (and there are numerous throughout the written, God breathed inspired written Word of God).
1. In Mar 12:35-37 we read “And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For <u>David himself said by the Holy Ghost</u>, The LORD (Kurios) said to my Lord (Kurios), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord (Kurios); and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly”. If Jesus is just the Son Of David, born in time a MAN, why prior to the coming of Jesus is David saying the Lord (Kurios – God) is talking to the Lord (Kurios – Jesus) about sitting on David’s throne? There is in this one scripture alone a recognition by Jesus himself (“not me”), that He the person Jesus was existed before David and was called God, and in a similar situation by the Apostle (“not me”) in Hebrews 1:8-14.
The same applies to interpreting the following scriptures:
Jesus himself (“not me”) is speaking – “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, <b>Before</b> Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
The Apostle Paul is speaking (“not me”) – “And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a <b>root</b> of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.” Romans 15:12
john Baptist is speaking (“not me”) – “This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was <b>before</b> me.” John 1:30
Your explanation that these mean existed as a purpose or plan by Him who knows the end from the beginning just don’t cut it and require a contortion of scripture just because of your erroneous belief system.
2. You interpret the name of God “Elohim” and God acting as meaning “Powers, One Spirit who is seven spirits” emanating from God. By doing this, powers emanating from God, who make the scriptures read that they are able to create (“Elohim/Powers created the heavens and the earth…”, speak (“Elohim/Powers said let there be..”), name (“Elohim/Powers called the….”), talk to one another (“Elohim/Powers said let us…”), make man in their own image (“Elohim/Powers… in our image .. and likeness”), to look on what they (“Elohim/Powers”) made and say “Elohim/Powers saw that it was good” “saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good“. You so doing you take the glory from GOD himself and attribute it to His Powers. Not only do you do this but you claim Adam and Eve were created by these powers with the inability to do the willof God even when Elohim said “saw every thing that <b>he</b> had made, and, behold, it was <b>very good</b>“.
Other examples, and there are numerous in scripture, speaks of God himself (in the Hebrew), not of his capabilities, as plural. Take for example Isaiah – “For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Isaiah 54:5. As I said it is, in the Hebrew text (k) “thy Makers, thy Husbands, God’s/Elohim of the whole earth”.
3. As for understanding Hebrew, my sources are eminent Hebrew scholars.
<u>Conclusion</u>
I for one will trust in the revelation of scripture not your interpretation of scripture. You simply cannot understand (maybe this is a blindness as someone has said to you) that ONE GOD means one in nature and essence who truly is the ONE God (just as their can be ONE Spirit yet sevens spirits), and this revelation is in contradistinction to the multiplicity of Gods that man creates “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” Romans 1:21.
This contradistinction is made by the Apostle Paul “As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.
As the Apostle says “Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol…..”.
Because of this you only see Christ as MAN and not as in truth He is both divine ancd human. He preexisted as the WORD and became flesh, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7. “This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” 1 John 5:6.
“For this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath <u>made him a liar</u>; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” 1 John 4:9-12.
All judgement has been given to the Son “That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.” John 5:23
The one of whom it was said “In <u>him</u> was life; and the life was the light of men.”, has come into the world as it says John 3:19 “light is come into the world”. This is “He that <u>cometh from above</u> (<i>and</i>) is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: <u>he that cometh from heaven</u> is above all.” John 3:31
HALLELUJAH
Let us then do what is most needful. That we live, think and behave in the way the Apostle says in Titus 2:11-14 By “the grace of God that bringeth salvation (<i>which</i>) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Or as the Apostle John says “God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because <u>as he is</u>, <u><b>so are we </b>in this world</u>.” 1 John 4:16-17.
Christians are called to “Walk as children of light”, and those say they abide “in him ought himself also so to <u>walk, even as he walked</u>.” 1 John 2:6
LU,
Honestly not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.
You are not addressing the POINT given AT ALL.
You want to tell Gene and I that Jesus is not of the tribe of Judah, that he is not a son of Jesse and David, and thus is not an Israelite?
You want to tell us that Jesus is a liar when he said “my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God“?
You want to tell us that Paul also was a liar when he said, “One God and Father of all, who is above all“, and “to us there is but one God, the Father“.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord:
or
29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord OUR God, the Lord is one.
LU, both translations tell you that Jesus is talking about his God and our God.
Pilgram…….I see you say CHRISTIANS agree with what I wrote, but disagree with my conclusions, so let’s slow this down a little and deal with some main points you listed.
First point I would like us to deal with is your misunderstanding I believe of a very important scripture. You believe that the word translated in the Greek text of Psalm 110:1 says that Jesus is the same as the word for God in the text, so let’s honestly examine it.
Psa -110: 1……The “LORD” said unto my “lord”, Sit you at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
You use those words as the Greek word there, “Kurios” but you fail to understand those words were written in HEBREW, not Greek originally ‘
King James reads that text, this way, THE “LORD” ( HEBREW Almighty God, yeh-ho-vaw’ the self existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of GOD) (Strongs H3068) , said unto my “lord” (Hebrew adon from a unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is controller (human or devine) : – lord, master, owner, Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-“
Strong shows a completely different word for “LORD” as it does for “lord” . Can you see that? , notice the word for GOD IS UPPER CASE “LORD” while the word used for “lord” is lower case.
Basic understanding is this, the Hebrew word for ALMIGHTY GOD IS “ADONIA” , and the word for a “human ruler” is “adoni” .
This is just one reason for your and most all Christanity’s misunderstandings.
I don’t want to move on to the rest of what you are saying right now until we settle this one and very important point ok. This is just one piece we need to get straight and then we can move on to another as things as ADAM being a human and the Second Adam not being. But for now please let’s just deal with this.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Jodi,
You said:
Honestly not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.
You are not addressing the POINT given AT ALL.
You want to tell Gene and I that Jesus is not of the tribe of Judah, that he is not a son of Jesse and David, and thus is not an Israelite?
You want to tell us that Jesus is a liar when he said “my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God“?
You want to tell us that Paul also was a liar when he said, “One God and Father of all, who is above all“, and “to us there is but one God, the Father“.
I’m sorry for your confusion but I don’t believe those things that you claim that I believe. Perhaps you should re-read what I have written with a spirit of understanding.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord:
or
29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord OUR God, the Lord is one.
LU, both translations tell you that Jesus is talking about his God and our God.
Jesus is quoting the Shema which is talking about Jehovah as a unity. Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords and as you have been told, Jesus is the Lord of lords. Therefore, Jesus is talking about himself and his Father as Israel’s God. Btw, Jehovah is not Israel’s God apart from the Son. There are many Israelites who do not believe that Jesus is the Lord of lords, the actual Son of God either, so you are not alone. I am glad that you included the proper translation of Mark 12:29, thank you.
LU
Hi Lu,
There are several things here.
First you still have not addressed and explained how that these passages can possibly make your understanding true.
Paul says, “to us there is but ONE God, the Father“.
Jesus says, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
When Jesus says “my God, and your God” that equates to OUR God, his and mine together, we share the same God.
So when Jesus speaks giving us the first and greatest commandment,”Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God the Lord is one:”, why would I just go and ignore the other words Jesus spoke, where he said his God is OUR God?
Paul’s words affirm the same thing that Jesus tells us, for us there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER, anything else is breaking the first and greatest commandment.
Jodi,
You said:
Paul says, “to us there is but ONE God, the Father“.
And who does Paul say is our ONE Lord? Jehovah is not just God but God and Lord.
Jesus says, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
When Jesus says “my God, and your God” that equates to OUR God, his and mine together, we share the same God.
You do not know God as the Father of the only begotten Son in truth, in fact you deny this. You do not share the same God.
So when Jesus speaks giving us the first and greatest commandment,”Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God the Lord is one:”, why would I just go and ignore the other words Jesus spoke, where he said his God is OUR God?
Jesus is speaking of Jehovah as a unity, you do not believe in the unity, therefore you do not believe in the LORD spoken about in the first and greatest commandment.
Hi Lu,
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is a lord of lords all directly according to scripture. Yes much of Israel denied/denies Jesus, they do so because God has blinded them from the truth.
Jesus in Acts is identified as the son of David and he is said to have been MADE lord and Christ by God (his God and our God, our ONE GOD THE FATHER).
Jesus is also said to have been raised from the dead being begotten of God, as a fulfilled promise that was given to David concerning his son, where God would be a Father to his son.
When I am told that Jesus is going to sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, and that he is the man ordained of God (his God and my God, our ONE GOD THE FATHER, Hallowed be His name) to judge us, it would be completely absurd for me to turn and equate Jesus to being YHWH.
Jesus’s name is Jesus, and our Father’s name is YHWH.
“Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”
After this manner therefore pray ye: “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”
Jesus didn’t come in his own name, and he didn’t say “Hallowed be our name”
john 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Psalms 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
“but for us there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER”
Hi Lu,
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
LU there is still ONLY ONE GOD the FATHER.
Lord means a master, and our ONE GOD the FATHER has placed ONE master over us, JESUS Christ.
As said to you before, Isaiah’s prophecies are not yet fully completed yet by the son of Jesse.
Jesus is the man ordained by God to judge us, there is ONE Lord who the ONE GOD THE FATHER has put in place to judge us, and he does so through God’s righteousness, not by his own eyes and ears.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If HE called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jesus does not declare that he is the One True God Lu, far from it!!
Jodi,
You believe in a god that has no true biological son. That is different than the one the Bible teaches.
Hi Lu,
Seems like you are ignoring the scriptures I gave.
In John 10 Jesus clearly teaches that he is NOT GOD.
You still continue to ignore that Jesus referred to his God as our God. He makes it clear that we share the same God as him, which is quite the opposite from what you say, he does not teach that he together with the Father is God.
Hi Lu,
Matthew 1 tells us of the GENESIS of Jesus, and we are given that he is of the genealogy of Abraham and David through Joseph.
Likewise the virgin birth was for a sign unto the house of David concerning the promised son of David who would sit on a throne according to the flesh for evermore.
This son of David’s, God declared him to be his Son at the moment when the Spirit descended upon him like a dove.
This son of David’s had the Spirit upon him, AN ANOINTING where he was THEN SENT. We read that the anointed Jesus IS the Son of God. Fact, this Spirit descending upon him, an anointing, and him being sent, is God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah made true in the flesh. He at the river Jordan was FILLED with grace and truth.
Jesus was the ONLY MORTAL MAN to have received God’s Spirit not by measure LU, and as said the moment that occurred God called him His Son, and WHEN that happened we see that is WHEN this Son WAS SENT out into the world.
When Jesus is raised from the dead we are told prophecy is fulfilled, the son of David is begotten by God.
You have a problem Lu,
this word “begotten” is NOT MONOGENES this time Lu, as it was before he died. It is Gennao!!!
Jesus was not raised from the dead as a monogenes -only of it’s kind Son of God, he was raised a protokos, a firstborn of many.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Prototokos Firstborn -first begotten
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Prototokos Firstborn -first begotten
Jodi,
I understand that Jesus is begotten by God from the grave on the day of his resurrection as the Firstborn from the dead so that he will be the firstborn of many brethren according to his flesh as David’s descendant.
When I say that you don’t believe that God has a biological son, I am referring to the monogenes (only begotten) Son who was the Firstborn over all creation, who actually came “out of the Father,” born before anything was in heaven or on earth. He was the God who was seen (Emmanuel) whereas his Father was the God who was never seen by men on earth. The Son, as Jehovah, was seen by Adam and Eve, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc. He was the Word of God that came to the prophets in the OT. He was called Jehovah by Abraham and Moses, and Isaiah and others, he was the Arm of Jehovah in the OT…the only begotten Son was very active before the NT. Then the monogenes Son was sent to become flesh.
You deny that whole side of the Son, therefore you believe in a god that does not have a biologically identical son. Christians all over the world believe in a biologically identical, only begotten Son who was born before time.
You actually believe in a god who is not a father of a truly monogenes son. Therefore, you do not have the same God as the Son.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten (monogenes) Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten (monogenes) God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Hi Gene,
In reply to your last post I first need to reiterate that I do not agree with your interpretation of scripture as will be apparent from this post. Christians believe the scriptures which teach among other things that Jesus was human. I have been clear I don’t agree with your view even of the way you see Jesus became human. So let’s be clear I am not endorsing your views.
Let’s state the scripture from Ps 110:1 as it is in Hebrew “Jehovah said unto my adon, Sit though on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”.
Adon means Lord, Master, Owner (according to Strong’s).
Now let’s look at the context in which Jesus quoted this Psalm.
The Jews had been seeking to entrap Jesus. So Jesus put a question to the Pharisees “What think Ye Of Christ? Whose son is he?
Now the Jews believed that the Christ (Messiah) was to be the Son (descendant) Of David and responded with that answer. They were familiar with Ps 110:1, Ps 89:35-36, Isaiah 9:7.
Then Jesus posed the question (please note) “How then doth David in spirit call him Lord” (then he quotes Pa110:1) and continues “If David call him Lord, how is he his Son?”.
Jesus, having confounded the great sects of the Jews, is here proceeding, in his turn, to propose to them a question for their solution. This he did to:
1. show them how ignorant they were of their prophecies.
2. humble them in view of their ignorance.
3. bring to their attention the true doctrine respecting the Messiah – his being possessed of a character superior to that of David, the most mighty king of Israel – being his Lord and his creator while at the same time that he was his descendant.
If he was then David’s lord (his superior) – if he had an existence at that time how could he be descended from him? The Pharisees could not answer him. Jesus was demonstrating that he had an existence at the time of David, and was his lord and master, his God and king, and that as man he was descended from him. The Messiah was Lord, by right both of creation and by right of redemption: since God (Christ) had made him (David); and as the Messiah and Saviour who had redeemed him; and on both accounts had a right to rule over him.
Jesus spoke this specifically to draw attention to the very error you believe. That Messiah was only a descendant not an Ancestor (root) of David.
You are likewise in the same position as the Pharisees, because you deny his prior existence claiming that the Lordship spoken by David, was simply a proclamation of the purpose or plan of God concerning the coming Messiah by Him who knows the end from the beginning. You make this text an obsurdity because you believe not the Godhead of the Messiah. It is incongruous for the father to speak of his son, the predecessor of his successor. Whatever is said of Christ’s humanity and humiliation must be construed and understood in consistency with the truth of his divine nature and dominion. Such contributes to the beauty and harmony of the whole.
David had spoken by (under the inspiration of) the Spirit when he called Messiah, Adon (Master). “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”. David “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”.
Today all the enemies of Christ, the prexisting Word and second Man, the Lord from heaven, are being made his footstool. Till all the enemies of him, and his people, are subdued under him; carnal professors, as the Pharisees, and profane sinners, who neither of them would have him to rule over them; the world, the devil, antichrist, and all the powers of darkness, and the last enemy, death itself.
Jesus was quite clear who He was, where He was at the same time as being on the earth and where He came from, and where he was going:
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Joh 3:13
“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” Joh 6:32-33
“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” Joh 6:35
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” Joh 6:38
“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” Joh 6:58
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Joh 6:62
Gene, you do greatly err.
Amen LightenUp.
An error that Jodi and Gene keep perpetrating is that Jesus was only the Son Of God from his anointing, being a son of Adam from his birth, both of which are co tarry to scripture.
The Angel Gabriel said to Mary “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”. Conception by the Holy Ghost and from birth called the Son Of God confirmed at his anointing at Jordan and on the mount Of transfiguration. This was spoken by the Angel.
As to what Jesus said of himself see the references in John’s gospel in my last post. Note Jesus said these things.
Pilgrim……what a pilithura of words, I noticed you did not even deal with my point at all, my point was that the Hebrew words used in the text clearly show that THE WORD LORD, meant the ALMIGHTY God, While the word lord meant a human ruler , two different word meanings. That was the subject we were talking about, now do you either acknowledge that or not?
We can move on to the subject of what Jesus meant, when quoting that later if you like. BUT for now, do you understand what I have produced concerning the word “LORD” AS Almighty GOD, and the word “lord ” as a human ruler, master of somekind? These are two different words describing different people, can you see that?
I told you I want to slow this down a little, because jamming so much in only confuses things, we need to deal with one thing at a time clearly inorder to get to the truth. So go back to square one, with me, and let’s deal with this first ok?
Peaceand love to you and yours. ………gene
LU…..I think slowing down and deal with what is written clearly in our scriptures would help you also. I know you have been taught a lot of different things over many years, by different writers, but following their teaching can led you no where in the end, because if they are wrong and wind up in the ditch so will you right? I think we all need to stick to our actual text we all have.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Pilgrim. ….you must pay attention to the actual word that are written, for instance you quoted this , …the Holy Spirit “shall” come upon you and (notice carefully) “that Holy “thing” ( why would he say “thing” if he already know who Jesus was ) and , which “shall” be born” of you “shall” be called the son of God. No where does it say he “already was” the son of God, now does it.? , so to presume he was a already prexistent being is just an assumption on you part, you certainly can not get it from that text now can you?
Pilgrim we have to agree with some simple thing, before we can move on with any honest dialogue right?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Hi Pilgrim,
You are right, there are so many fallacies in the teaching of Jodi and Gene. There really seems to be something that is covering their spiritual eyes.
Let’s continue to hope for unity.
God bless, LU
Gene,
You said: LU…..I think slowing down and deal with what is written clearly in our scriptures would help you also. I know you have been taught a lot of different things over many years, by different writers, but following their teaching can led you no where in the end, because if they are wrong and wind up in the ditch so will you right? I think we all need to stick to our actual text we all have.
I came to my belief of Jesus being the only begotten Son of God, the Firstborn over all creation, born before anything was made in heaven and on earth, the exact representation of the Father’s nature, appearing as Jehovah to Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc. just by studying the Bible, before I knew anything about what the early church father’s wrote. Then back in 2010 while I was participating in the forum here, I learned of the early church father’s writings. The internet made that possible. I didn’t have the internet back when I started my search regarding the relationship between the Father and the Son in the late fall of 1992. The fact that I agree with Ireaeneus from what I posted a couple of days ago who was a student, btw. of a student of John who wrote the book of John, Jesus’ beloved friend, should be significant confirmation of the Holy Spirit leading me to understand the truth of the relationship of the Father and the Son.
You along with Jodi believe in a god who does not have a biologically identical son born before anything was made in heaven or on the earth. Thus you do not believe in Jesus’ God.
Take care, LU
Gene,
I comprehensively addressed the text. You unfortunately are blind in the reading of scripture and simply want to argue your interpretation of scripture rather than know the truth or even honestly accept the plain wording and meaning of scriptural texts.
As I said before Jesus’ question to the Pharisees (and quote from Ps 110) was because they believed the Messiah would only be a descendant Of David and like you refused to see that David called the Messiah Adon (Master, Lord, Owner). By doing so David recognised the preexistence Of the Messiah and as his Lord. You can’t have it both ways I.e. ‘son of” is an actual being/person but ‘my Lord (Adon)’ is not. The Pharisees certainly understood what Jesus was saying. They wanted to kill him for claiming to be the son of God.
Unfortunately you try to understand scripture with human wisdom not by the grace of God and the revelation of the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles. Until that changes you will continue misinterpreting scripture for your own purposes and, even as in the case of the one under discussion, fail to understand the plain language and meaning of scripture.
Arguing with you about the scriptures won’t help you. You need the conviction of the Spirit and His revelation. I am about helping people to see the truth and, as in this case, the truth about the Messiah. To simply argue when Jesus was plainly demonstrating to the Pharisees that the Messiah was David’s Lord and in existence before David, is a waste of time and there is not much point in continuing the posts because you will continue to refuse to acknowledge the clarity of the text.
I gave you other scriptures from John’s gospel where Jesus himself said he came from heaven, was in heaven, and returning to heaven. Jesus himself said “God so loved the world that He sent his son into the world…”. The text is plain. I am not going to argue with someone who won’t even accept the plain meaning of the text.
I hope and pray one day you will turn to the Lord so that the blindness that lies on your heart can be removed and you will see Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son Of God for who he really is and thereby receive God’s record of him and bring honour to the Father who sent him and dwelt in him.
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